Examination of Witness (Questions 200-202)
Mr Barrie Deas
19 MARCH 2008
Q200 Chairman: There is a hard question
lurking there, is there not, which is really why should the taxpayer
be expected to fund a scheme that makes the industry more economically
efficient and effective but improves the returns for those who
remain in the industry?
Mr Deas: The public increasingly has an interest
in the marine environment and fisheries are an important part
of that, and the right size of fisheries is not just therefore
something that should be laid at the fisherman's door; there is
a public interest in getting it right. Also, had Government intervened
early enough to put the proper licensing arrangements in we would
not have seen the over-capacity during the Gadoid outburst outburst
during the 1970s and 1980s, along with subsidies, that fuelled
the expansion of the white fish fleet that really underpins the
problem with the stocks that we have been dealing with over the
last few years.
Q201 Baroness Jones of Whitchurch:
Following on from the decommissioning issue what has been the
socio-economic impact of that? I can remember seeing on television
in the seventies and eighties people saying "You are going
to wreck our communities if you cut the quotas" et cetera
et cetera, but what has actually happened to those, particularly
the very isolated communities where they have had decommissioning.
Have they found other jobs or have they been neglected?
Mr Deas: The short answer is that I do not know.
Socio-economic is that kind of word that is bandied around, but
we do not really know, I do not think there is anybody collecting
information on where crew from decommissioned vessels have gone.
Socio-economic is a word that the Commission reads in one way
which is that whenever they see the word they think "Here
is an argument for us not to take the kind of measures that we
need to take to put things on a proper footing", it is an
excuse kind of argument. I see the economic dimension as an integral
part of whether management measures work or not, whether they
provide the right kind of incentives, so we are really talking
there about understanding it in terms of a result-based approach.
There is pitiful little socio-economic data gathered and it is
one of the reasons why the North Sea RAC has established a working
group to at least begin to gather that kind of information, and
it is one of the responsibilities that the Commission certainly
expects RACs to perform, to feed in these kinds of socio-economic
dimensions.
Q202 Chairman: Let us finish where
Mr Armstrong finished. You have talked about rights-based managed
and you heard Mr Armstrong's concern that ITQs would lead basically
to an international market and he used the phrase "would
not necessarily be in the interests of Great Britain Plc".
What is your view?
Mr Deas: My view is that there is a contradiction
between national quotas and the treaty obligations on freedom
of movement of labour and capital and the right of establishment,
which is why this country got into deep water with the European
Court in the Factortame case. Post Factortame it
is clear that if fishermen from another Member State wish to buy
quota in this country they can, as long as they comply with the
economic links. We already have a pretty open system and it is
interesting that the Anglo-Dutch and Anglo-Spanish, which are
the main fishermen from other Member States that have bought quota,
have bought quota on the stocks that they are interested in, so
for the Spanish it was hake, megrim and monkfish and for the Dutch
there was a big surplus in the UK at one time of North Sea plaice.
Beyond that you do not see either the Dutch or the Anglo-Spanish
pushing further and further. That is not to say that other interests
might not come in in the future; if you have an open market that
is what you have to accept. The fear is that as time goes on you
would see an erosion of quotas held by the traditional UK fleet,
but I think in the NFFO we were undoubtedly one of the strongest
arguing for measures to restrict quota-hoppers. Post Factortame
we have taken an entirely different view and say it is an open
market, and in fact we have Anglo-Spanish and Anglo-Dutch members
of our organisation now because we took the view that some of
our members were trading quota or leasing quota with these interests
and it is entirely hypocritical therefore not to have them in
membership of a national organisation where we can talk about
the issues and share perspectives. We found them to be very responsible,
serious people and so I have a rather different view from Bertie
Armstrong, reflecting our different experiences. Ultimately what
it boils down to is the judgment in the European Court and the
subsequent exchange of letters between Tony Blair and Jacques
Santer that defined the limits of what a Member State can do in
terms of requiring economic links.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. I do apologise
that as we have ended we are down to a relatively sparsely-attended
meeting, but from my point of view it is quite nice because where
I sit the whole right wing has disappeared. Thank you very much.
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