Examination of Witness (Questions 400-419)
Mr Cliff Morrison
30 APRIL 2008
Q400 Viscount Brookeborough: On that
score, I understand that with line-caught cod and haddock you
do get far less of a discard problem.
Mr Morrison: Yes.
Q401 Viscount Brookeborough: I was
unaware that so much line-caught haddock were available. First
of all, where are they available from? Secondly, if it comes from
further away, that will be much more expensive. How on earth do
they compete, if they have 100% of this expensive, line-caught
haddock?
Mr Morrison: You can catch large volumes of
fish with line—
Q402 Viscount Brookeborough: But
where are these fish caught?
Mr Morrison: Iceland produce an awful lot of
line-caught fish; Norway also produce a lot of line-caught fish,
as does Russia.
Q403 Viscount Brookeborough: Why
do we not, when we are so close to Norway? In fact, our fisheries
actually merge on each other. Why do we not in Scotland?
Mr Morrison: There is a difference. In the North
Sea we have mixed fisheries, and so it is quite different to large
sections of the Barents Sea or the Norwegian Sea or Iceland, where
they tend to be single-species fisheries. It really is quite different
between the North Sea and only a few hundred miles further north.
That is not often appreciated. These longlines go for miles. It
is quite extraordinary to see them being baited up and run off
the back of the vessels. It is a volume process, therefore.
Q404 Viscount Brookeborough: It is
not that much more expensive therefore?
Mr Morrison: It is more expensive. I do not
know to what extent it is more expensive. I can find that out
if you want me to put a written submission in to you.
Q405 Viscount Ullswater: On discards,
in developing the niche market approach for the landed fish, say,
from the UK—and obviously the quality and the size of fish
are very important in that—are you encouraging a form of
high-grading, which would then end up with discarding?
Mr Morrison: I would hope not. I know that high-grading
used to go on but, if that were ever suspected, I think that we
would try to take action to stop it. High-grading is appalling
really, particularly with cod. As a slight aside, a number of
years ago I was on a Norwegian fishing vessel and I needed to
get off and to go back, because they were out for longer than
I was anticipating. They were boarded by the inspection service.
They did all the net checks and things. I therefore hitched a
ride back with them and, on the way back, we would follow vessels
just over the horizon and follow in their wake. They were looking
for discards. If it was evident that a vessel was discarding,
they would come up very fast and try and take action. I was very
impressed with that approach by the Norwegians.
Lord Palmer: We have something in common, in
that I used to make biscuits as well, albeit for the opposition—United
Biscuits.
Chairman: Notice the name!
Q406 Lord Palmer: In your opening
remarks you mentioned that a lot of your members pack for the
retailers. Do you mean own-brand by that?
Mr Morrison: Yes.
Q407 Lord Palmer: Own-brand, particularly
in the frozen fish market, is presumably tiny, is it not?
Mr Morrison: No.
Q408 Lord Palmer: It is not?
Mr Morrison: No. I guess it will be at least
30 or 40%.
Q409 Lord Palmer: My main question,
though—and you did touch on this when answering My Lord
Chairman's supplementary—is what level of engagement is
there now between the processors, retailers and the actual catch
sector? You alluded to the fact that it is very much better than
it used to be.
Mr Morrison: Looking first at the EU level,
ACFA, the advisory committee, has representation of all stakeholders,
including the NGOs, the banks, all sectors of the fishing industry,
the process workers and also AIPCE. We therefore have regular
contact with all of our European counterparts through ACFA. We
also need to get together outside of normal sessions. For instance,
with the IUU regulations that we have just been talking about,
we will get together to produce position statements; so we are
working together from that point of view. If you look at the RACs
where the fishermen are the principal people involved, there are
also other stakeholders there, including ourselves; so there is
regular contact with the fisher people from that perspective.
Over the last four years we have had an initiative in the Clyde,
where all stakeholders have been working to look at responsible
fishing in the Clyde with three fishermen's organisations from
Northern Ireland, the trawlers and the potters, WWF and the Scottish
environmental group—I forget what they are called—the
equivalent of Natural England.
Q410 Chairman: Scottish Natural Heritage.
Mr Morrison: Yes. We therefore have a wide stakeholder
group there and we develop responsible fishing initiatives. That
cross-fertilisation has been very good. It is now leading to MSC
certification of the nephrops fishery and looking at discards
and all sorts of issues. We have therefore been working on that.
In turn, that has led to other fisheries looking at MSC certification.
In north-east Scotland our members are helping to fund the Scottish
fishermen in terms of the haddock and the nephrops fisheries.
I mentioned Seafood Scotland and also Seafood Cornwall. There
are these very good working relationships. Another area that has
developed well, through Seafish initially, is something called
the Common Language Group, where we wanted to understand each
other's concerns. That has proved incredibly successful, and we
have Defra and DfID on that as well. They are coming from a completely
different perspective when they are in our meetings, as opposed
to us being in theirs. We also have the NGOs and the fishers.
You will be aware of all the issues on skates and rays last year
or the year before. That group came together and devised a policy.
We have therefore been working together hugely in those areas.
Young's/Foodvest helped to fund the Fisheries Science Partnership
with the fishermen in the North Sea. I recently went to Murmansk
with WWF to talk to the fishermen's associations there about MSC
and our responsible fishing initiatives through AIPCE, which I
have not actually mentioned yet. Yes, there is very good interaction
now. I have mentioned Seafish as well. The Seafish committees
have all the stakeholders on them. It has changed so much.
Chairman: Regional Advisory Councils—we
were particularly interested in Regional Advisory Councils. Earl
of Dundee?
Q411 Earl of Dundee: How useful do
you find them to be?
Mr Morrison: We were not sure when they first
started. The way that we have access to the RACs is via AIPCE,
via our European association; so we are allowed to be on all the
committees via that route. We attend the North West RAC, as we
are the official AIPCE representative on the North West Waters
RAC. Our Dutch counterparts are on the North Sea; our Danish counterparts
are on the Baltic; and I think the Spanish are on the Distant
Waters—which you would naturally expect. Our view is that,
from a dubious start, we believe they are now becoming very effective.
They are able, on a regional basis, to look at the issues affecting
them by bringing in scientists and study.
Q412 Earl of Dundee: What have they
achieved, though? What has happened which is worthwhile, through
them?
Mr Morrison: It is early days, is it not? In
the North Sea, I have mentioned these credit systems, and a lot
of that has gone through the RACs. All of those initiatives have
therefore come about via that North Sea RAC. I have mentioned
all these issues in the Baltic on over-fishing. Certainly the
RACs are taking steps towards trying to curb that as well. They
are doing extra science, looking at the difference in stocks between
the eastern and the western cod stocks there. We are therefore
getting far more scientific data than we ever used to. In the
North West RAC we have also been looking at introducing observer
schemes and getting agreement on those. That is why I said that
it is early days. There was always this question about how they
were going to be financed longer-term, but that has now been resolved.
Our view is that they will become evermore important and we very
much welcome the whole concept of managing fisheries on a regional
basis. This, of course, has been the problem with DG Fish up until
now. However, the restructuring of DG Fish and Maritime Affairs
to DG Mare, where other divisions are also being created—that,
working in conjunction with the RACs, I think will be very effective
in the years to come.
Q413 Chairman: Can we push you? Where
do you see them developing? Not geographically, but how far can
they develop in terms of managing?
Mr Morrison: I do not actually sit on them,
but I believe that they can become self-sufficient—and this
may again be aspirational—in their regions, and do the management,
the stock assessment, and also quota management. I would like
to think that that would be the ultimate goal.
Q414 Lord Plumb: When we took evidence
from the RACs last week, they said that they worked under the
guidance of a Commission. I thought that was the wrong way round.
Mr Morrison: Of course, the Commission have
been dictatorial over the years. There has been huge frustration
in the regions, because they have said, "You don't know what
you're talking about". Bear in mind here that I am a processor;
I am not a fisherman. I think that this has now been recognised
by Brussels. As I say, the very fact that they are now following
a similar regionalisation approach within the new DG Mare is testament
to that—which is why I have confidence that, going forward,
they will manage their own affairs.
Q415 Lord Palmer: Albeit with very
limited resources. We were all amazed at how they managed on the
budget that they had.
Mr Morrison: Yes, but we pay fees and do not
always claim our expenses as well, which might help.
Q416 Baroness Sharp of Guildford:
This was another Young's question, but can we pose it more generally
and ask what scope do you see for the development and application
of new technologies? And could you give us some examples?
Mr Morrison: The initial intent behind the implementation
of these new technologies has really been to gather data about
the status of fish stocks, which comes back to what we were talking
about earlier, and the traceability of our products. Amongst the
halo effects that Foodvest have seen are a better understanding
and developing of the structures of the fisheries and, consequently,
we have seen improved handling of fish on board the vessels that
we buy from. In almost every circumstance we have seen either
an improvement in the quality, resulting in better returns to
the catchers and hence consumer offerings, or a reduction in waste,
which has benefited the resource and cost. It is difficult for
Foodvest to influence what happens at sea, because they do not
own fishing vessels, but we have taken huge steps on land to improve
processing and to maximise quality, quantity and the whole food
chain. We have therefore taken positive steps all the way along.
Some examples of the technology include work that they are currently
doing on what is called the coverless trawl trials in the nephrops
fisheries in the west of Scotland. The concept behind this coverless
trawl that Young's/Foodvest are investing in is to reduce by-catch
of whiting and of haddock, and they are doing this work in conjunction
with Glasgow University—the fishing part of the university
there. In the Western Isles we have developed a catch registration
system, known as Young's Trace. This has been implemented not
only in the west of Scotland but also in Sri Lanka. This is a
data-recording system that is on vessels. None of these vessels,
of course, are owned by Young's; they are all in the hands of
private fishers, but there is a contract with them that we will
bag their catch. As soon as the vessel goes out of port this is
automatically triggered; so we know where the vessel is, how much
it has caught and when it is coming back. Nobody every thought
that we would be able to get this kind of system onto vessels
and that the skippers would allow that information to go up into
the sky and back down to a processor. It is incredible, and it
has been quite a breakthrough. There is a similar system on land
at quaysides, so that those vessels that do not have this system
in place can record all of their data as well. I know that has
resulted in an improved return for those fishers that have put
that information on board, because it helps Young's to determine
the best place to go for the best sizes and quality of fish, of
nephrops. It has therefore been a unique experience. The systems
are in place in large vessels around the world, but they are owned
by the fishing vessel. I think that is a unique concept. You can
actually see on the screen in certain restaurants where the fish
came from.
Q417 Lord Cameron of Dillington:
What is the difference in price between MSC-certified fish and
non-certified fish?
Mr Morrison: The seafood industry is highly
competitive; so whether you can command a price differential in
the marketplace is questionable. It is difficult to say, but there
are examples of fisheries where, by being MSC-certified, those
fisheries get a much better return. I know that happened with
the Thames herring and I know it happens with the mackerel, but
they are small fisheries. This question always comes up and my
argument is that you are guaranteeing a good market. You will
always be able to feed into companies that are prepared to pay
for an MSC product; so you are not just putting it in the market
and getting the best price at the time. It is very difficult to
put a value on it.
Q418 Lord Cameron of Dillington:
Is the public generally aware of MSC certification and could it
be made more aware? Let me ask this. Could it be made more aware
and therefore does it work? Could you get more help from the EU,
for instance? Let us face it, if all the fish sold was MSC-certified
it would considerably help the Common Fisheries Policy and what
they are trying to achieve by another means: by consumer preference.
Is the public aware? That is probably the first question.
Mr Morrison: Yes, and it is a bit like chicken-and-egg.
You have to build up sufficient certified fisheries before you
can go ahead and effectively promote. It is getting there in the
first place.
Q419 Baroness Sharp of Guildford:
I take it that the registration scheme that you were talking about
actually feeds into this, does it?
Mr Morrison: It will do, yes. The fishery up
in north-west Scotland, Young's are paying for that to be certified
at this time—in the Hebrides area. I mentioned the Clyde,
which Young's have helped to finance but we have had money from
the Scottish Government and FIFG to do that. I know that certification
scheme will help with the MSC certification and certainly chain
of custody: there is no doubt about that. Overall, I think 7 or
8% of the world's fisheries are MSC-certified at this time. That
is beginning to increase quite rapidly now and there are an awful
lot of fisheries in the certification loop at this moment. I can
see that growing quite significantly. As we get more companies
involved, I can certainly see that there will be greater demand
and the public awareness will also go up. However, I do know that
MSC are looking at a new initiative to promote the MSC certification
label and awareness of it.
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