Examination of Witnesses (Questions 980-999)
Jonathan Shaw and Mr Lindsay Harris
11 JUNE 2008
Q980 Earl of Arran: Many Member States
are of the view that they represent the future of a better, bottom-up
rather than top-down, management system which they are very keen
on by and large.
Jonathan Shaw: Yes, but I think the bottom-up
needs to be underpinned by a good compliance system.
Chairman: Exactly.
Q981 Earl of Arran: Thank you.
Jonathan Shaw: So that is something that we
need to impose centrally.
Q982 Chairman: Can I dip back to
compliance; what is your view on harmonising administrative sanctions,
accepting that we cannot do harmonisation of criminal sanctions?
Jonathan Shaw: I would not get out alive! I
think I might get a call from someone if I did advocate that!
Q983 Chairman: It is a problem, is
it not, making sure that there is something approaching a degree
of harmonisation when it comes to sanctions and perhaps the only
route is through administrative sanctions?
Jonathan Shaw: We are having that discussion
now about how we implement that. In the pursuit of a level playing
field that our fishermen want to see, we are going to have to
have some form of harmonisation. Can I ask Mr Harris if he has
got any more detail on that.
Mr Harris: Just to say that it is something
that the Commission have at times pushed for but have never really
made an issue of because different Member States have been at
different stages in their use of administrative sanctions in fisheries.
As the Committee probably knows, we are moving towards greater
use of them in the UK, and I think that is an issue that the Commission
will come back to and it may be something that will be in the
revision of the control regime that was referred to earlier. I
do not think it has gone away as an issue and it is probably the
right way to go.
Q984 Chairman: It has not gone away
and it may be coming in. Are you for it or against it?
Mr Harris: I would think for.
Chairman: Okay. Let us continue with regional
management and Lord Wallace.
Q985 Lord Wallace of Tankerness:
I think you have already touched on the principles which you would
like to see when the review comes in in 2012 and it is well set
out in the final paragraph of the Department's submission to us
concluding that: "A more regional management model could
and should be appropriate and feasible, but it is essential that
this remains within an overall EU framework ... " The Earl
of Arran indicated perhaps the desirability of more management
that is going to work but what about its feasibility? How likely
do you think it is that Brussels is going to let go of the micro-management?
Jonathan Shaw: I think the Commissioner wants
to but of course he has got to have the confidence that there
will be compliance, so taking us back again to the cod-avoidance
programme, the proof of the pudding will be this December when
we are able to present to him what we have managed to achieve,
and I think, as I say, other Member States will be looking carefully
at this. I think it is about how the RACs provide their advice
as they do at the moment, their ability to be able to mature,
their ability to be able to get the resources to do the job of
work that they are so keen and I am keen for them to do independently
rather than relying on handouts. I think the picture that I have
painted, just answering the Earl of Arran's question in terms
of one day you will have this regional advisory council that does
manage and there are a number of Member States sitting round,
so there is ourselves and Denmark and maybe Norway as an observer
role looking at cod management in the North Sea with NGOs and
fishermen. We have travelled a long way in recent years since
the publication of Net Benefits from the Prime Minister's
Strategy Unit that advocated far more working with scientists
and fishermen, and the proposals that came from Scotland in terms
of the kilowatt hours which I know you will be familiar with,
and a buy-in from the fleet and also the stuff that came from
the English fleet as well. That points the way. This is where
we want to be in terms of reform; that is where we want to go.
Will it be feasible? That is the course that we are charting as
it were, so we will see. Certainly within the UK I think there
is the ambition to be in that type of position.
Q986 Lord Wallace of Tankerness:
On the other side of the coin, which you refer to in that final
paragraph, is the overall EU framework. Could you please put on
the record why you think there should be an overall EU framework
and perhaps expand on what you see as being the components of
an overall EU framework.
Jonathan Shaw: In terms of compliance?
Q987 Lord Wallace of Tankerness:
Generally in terms of the future of the CFP. What do you see as
the central role?
Jonathan Shaw: I think that it is very, very
important that we manage our fisheries collectively and that we
have an agreed set of management tools in place. Without that
I think the consequences upon stocks could be very, very serious
indeed, and will prevent us from reaching the key goal which is
to meet the 2015 target so that stocks are in a recovering state.
Have I answered your question?
Q988 Lord Wallace of Tankerness:
You say in your paragraph things like consistency of control and
enforcement standards and consistent monitoring and data gathering.
Is there anything beyond that that you see as being essential
about the European role?
Jonathan Shaw: No, I cannot think off the top
of my head, other than getting that consistency across all Member
States which is a task in itself. Are there other areas, Lindsay,
we would be looking at?
Mr Harris: Presumably if you moved to that more
regional approach you would still want to set some sort of principles/parameters
within which the regional bodies would work, simply to provide
assurance that one body was not going off in an irresponsible
direction. It seems to me that is the trick we have got to get
right to make this feasible; getting the right balance between
having a framework which gives a level playing field but still
leaves sufficient flexibility. It comes back to the question that
the Chairman asked about the real-time closures because it is
the same issue there. You need to have a framework that allows
those sorts of things to be done flexibly without it having to
go through a Commission proposal and go to the Council, which
is very cumbersome and is not a responsive way of doing things,
but still gives reassurance that an individual Member State is
not going off and doing something wacky on its own initiative.
Jonathan Shaw: I am sure no Member State would
do anything wacky!
Q989 Viscount Ullswater: Just before
we leave this concept of regional management, are the regional
advisory councils a bit strapped at the moment because they do
not really have funds to commission any work, their funds are
very limited to just a small amount to pay for a secretariat and
a small amount for travel and Aberdeenshire Council manage to
put most of the people up in hotels.
Jonathan Shaw: We should applaud Aberdeenshire
Council.
Q990 Viscount Ullswater: If they
are going to give real advice which may lead the Commission to
thinking they have got sensible plans, they will need to come
up with commissioning new work rather than relying on old studies
or other academic studies or whatever it is. Where do you think
that money will come from?
Jonathan Shaw: I wholeheartedly agree with you
and that is why I have written and met with the Commissioner to
discuss this very point. Defra have funded a number of projects
as have the Scottish administration as well and we would want
to continue to do so.
Viscount Ullswater: Excellent.
Chairman: Lord Palmer?
Q991 Lord Palmer: I do apologise
most sincerely for not being here for your opening remarks. I
did warn the Chairman that I was going to be late, and I was not
quite as late as I thought I was going to be. My main question
was going to be on the desperate plight because of the high cost
of fuel. You have largely touched on that but six of us around
the table are involved in what I like to call "rural activities"
and, as we all know, the price of red diesel has quadrupled in
the last two years, and I think basically you have touched on
that. If I can go back to paragraph 44, the Commission have yet
to state how exactly Member States are to judge the balance between
the fishing opportunities and fishing capacity. How does our Government
consider this judgment should be made and what further measures
might the UK take to bring fishing capacity into line with fishing
opportunities, including the under 10 metre fleet? I would be
particularly interested to know how closely you consult with the
Scottish Executive on this particular point.
Jonathan Shaw: Lord Palmer, just to illustrate
the jump, three years ago the industry was spending around £90
million on fuel; now it is over £200 million. That puts it
in pounds, shillings and pence; it is colossal. In terms of the
structural policy, we think that putting aside for the moment
fuel prices for the over 10 metre fleet, in relation to its quota
and the number of vessels, we have got it broadly right and the
industry have enjoyed a good income because fish prices are high
and more people are wanting to eat different types of fish, and
so it has been a good news story compared to how it was for many
years, and that is underpinned, as I say, by scientists and fishermen
working together with funded projects from government. As I say,
that happens in Scotland and that happens in England. We have
put in £3 million up to 2008 following the Net Benefits
report and we have put in a further £3 million over the next
three years as well, so we have continued to do that. What has
not happened in the same way as in the over 10 metre fleet for
England is the decommissioning of the under 10 metre fleet and
so for the number of vessels, which is around 4,000 many of which
are not active, the amount of quota that they have available is
not sustainable, it does not add up, and so what are we doing
about that? I am issuing a consultation with the industry and
part of that is something that I have referred to which is the
Fisheries Science Partnership where we have got about 30 vessels
and a number of those are signing up, in addition to which we
want to get some of the vessels out of the pool because 9% of
the vessels in the under 10 metre pool take up 70% of the quota.
Many of you may have been to Hastings and seen the largest beach
fleet anywhere in England, and what I am sure is all in your mind's
eye is those little wooden boats and that is part of the culture
and that is part of the heritage of that part of East Sussex and
Hastings.
Q992 Chairman: I see another visit
coming up.
Jonathan Shaw: Also when I went there—and
I live in Kent so going to Hastings is something that I have done
over the years on many occasions—on my first visit as Fisheries
Minister, coming up the beach was a huge (comparatively) catamaran
and, as I say, these are some of the vessels that take 70% of
the quota. That is not what we have in mind so we need to rebalance
the fleet. Some of that will be about moving some of these larger
vessels. Although they might be under 10 metre, it is not the
size, it is the capacity. We will also put in between £3
million and £5 million to decommission and take out some
of these vessels. There are also monthly catch limits. Also part
of the consultation will be about licences and whether we restrict
the number of licences and that would be based upon track record
since our records came in in 2005. We are consulting on that and
the initial responses have not been entirely positive, but we
do have to do something if my grandchildren, as yet unborn, are
going to be able to go to Hastings beach and see the little boats
that I love to see so much. It does feed into the point that Viscount
Brookeborough was asking me about the wider economic benefits.
So we are doing that and it is not easy but it is something that
has been an on-going argument about the amount of quota that has
been distributed between the over 10 metre and under 10 metre
fleet in England for a long time. Another point that I wanted
to make in terms of the number of vessels and the reasons why
we want licences and a new track record is because we have closed
North Sea cod to the under 10 metre fleet, the allocation and
we have not had to do that before because in some ways we have
been able to swap in the past but because it was known it was
there fishermen who perhaps are not fishermen all the time but
have got a licence think, "Jolly good, let's go and get some
of this lovely cod." and those vessels that are fishing as
the main part of their livelihood now find themselves with that
fishery closed. If you look back over the course of history bringing
about restructuring within the industry is difficult, it is painful,
but in terms of getting the balance between the number of fishermen
and the number of fish you can catch, these are nettles that we
have to grasp.
Q993 Lord Palmer: And how closely
do you liaise with the Scottish Executive because a lot of us
are from north of the border around the table?
Jonathan Shaw: Our officials liaise very closely
and of course when we are presenting the UK position that is something
we need to reach agreement on. We did that effectively last year
when I was appointed. I met with the NFFO and explained to them
that there was an SNP Fisheries Minister in Scotland, there was
a Plaid Cymru Fisheries Minister in Wales and in Northern Ireland
there was a Sinn Fein Fisheries Minister and they said, "How
do you cope?" I said, "There would probably be a lot
more arguments if we were all Labour." But it went very well
last December and we are determined to ensure that that continues.
In politics you have different relationships with the same people
so we will have differences, but, importantly, where we need to
work together we do, and I certainly meet with the Scottish Fisheries
Federation led by Bertie Armstrong. I meet him on a regular basis
and I will see him and Barry Deas together regularly. So consultation
with the established industry representatives is there and is
frequent and on-going and what I am setting up in England is a
joint working group where it will make decisions that will inform
me and that will have an independent chair. We have these type
of arrangements with the agriculture industry making decisions
on Bluetongue and the vaccine was something that the industry
and Government did together. That is why we want to pursue the
responsibility in cost sharing, which I am sure Lord Rooker has
spoken to you about. That it seems to me is how you need to do
business and, as I say, coming afresh to this—and I have
been in the position for a year now—much of the industry
has settled down, there are good relations and things work well;
other parts of it do not, and I need to find a way of managing
those relationships so that we can more effectively pursue good
fisheries management policy.
Viscount Brookeborough: This morning, Minister,
the representative from the Scottish seafood processors mentioned
in passing that, yes, there are a lot of small boats tied up and
there were in some cases unnecessary quotas, for instance in mackerel,
and he made a comment that you can go out and catch as many mackerel
as you like, number one we could process them and number two we
would not damage the stocks. Is that a realistic point or is it
not really so?
Q994 Chairman: We are talking about
line fishing for mackerel.
Jonathan Shaw: Yes.
Q995 Viscount Brookeborough: He seemed
to say there was a quota.
Jonathan Shaw: There is a quota.
Q996 Viscount Brookeborough: But
is this quota really totally unnecessary?
Jonathan Shaw: I think there are some discussions
about whether we can help out with that quota at the moment.
Mr Harris: Yes, I believe there are.
Jonathan Shaw: There are some discussions on-going
about whether we can help with a swap from England into Scotland.
Q997 Viscount Brookeborough: Is there
not an argument where if what he said is true then it is not necessary
to have a quota on such fish?
Jonathan Shaw: The quotas are in place at a
European level and obviously we have to take account of the ICES
advice and the advice from scientists from Scotland and England.
I thought you were going to say he could walk on the mackerel.
Q998 Viscount Brookeborough: Well
he did almost.
Jonathan Shaw: I have heard that a few times.
Q999 Chairman: We have also heard
from Scottish Officials that Scotland want to go it alone with
a Scottish Fisheries Policy outside the Common Fisheries Policy.
I was wondering whether you have any views about this or what
advice you have given them?
Jonathan Shaw: I have gone into some remarks
in detail about the Scottish administration's consultation on
quota separation. In terms of the policy of the SNP to leave the
Common Fisheries Policy and remain within the European Union,
that is quite a challenging equation.
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