Examination of Witnesses (Questions 800
- 811)
THURSDAY 6 DECEMBER 2007
Mr Beniamin Gawlik
Q800 Lord Greaves:
I have got a couple of technical questions on what I might call
the rural development side of the rural development funds as opposed
to the environmental side. Before asking them, I wonder if I can
ask something else. I have been thinking about these hundreds
of thousands of people on very tiny farms of perhaps one, two
or three hectares, which in many ways are for their subsistence
and so on, on a typical Polish farm of a very small size like
this, will there be people who are not earning their income from
the farm but who have other jobs? Would it be typical that if
there is a couple, a man and a woman, that one of them might have
another job and perhaps their children might have jobs? Would
that be typical or would they all rely on the farm?
Mr Gawlik: In many cases it works like that.
On those smaller farms, the farm is not the only source of income
for them. In the past and for a certain period of time after transition[8]
it was even more common for them to be more small farmers who
relied not only on their farms and later, due to economic changes,
they were forced to rely on what they earned as farmers.
Q801 Lord Greaves:
Because the other jobs had gone?
Mr Gawlik: Yes.
Q802 Lord Greaves:
What sort of other jobs? We are talking about rural villages here,
not next to towns where people can perhaps go into the town and
have a job but out in the sticks, as we would say, what sort of
jobs would they have?
Mr Gawlik: You mean in the future?
Q803 Lord Greaves:
No, now. What sort of jobs might be available out in the countryside
which are not farming?
Mr Gawlik: It depends on the region. If there
is the agricultural processing sector in the region it might be
those kinds of jobs. Sometimes it is not permanent jobs but seasonal
jobs within processing. Sometimes it might be jobs within services,
for example in communication and transport companies, wholesale
and retail trade, construction sector.
Q804 Lord Greaves:
It is jobs which are providing services for the agricultural community
and agricultural economy of the area?
Mr Gawlik: For the agricultural community but
not only for that, for the general public as well.
Q805 Lord Greaves:
That is very helpful. I must say I do not know how many of these
people would come to this country and get similar jobs in similar
industries nowadays, but we will not pursue that. Certainly quite
a few perhaps, and presumably they will send the money back home
and help to subsidise these little farms. Are those rural development
funds integrated adequately with other European structural funds
and, indeed, with Polish national programmes, whatever they may
be? Has the presence of the rural development funds so far helped
farmers in any significant way to improve their competitive position
by improving their efficiency, perhaps by the amalgamation of
farms, et cetera?
Mr Gawlik: I will have to take a look at my
notes. Taking into account our experience from 2004-06, when we
implemented these rural development measures under the old policy
and when it was divided into two parts and partially financed
by the structural funds, we can see it is quite positive that
those funds have been integrated into one single rural development
fund. It is also the case that the rural development programme
should be quite efficiently integrated with other policies under
the structural funds. Taking into account our experience it is
quite obvious that support from the rural development funds, and
only support from the rural development funds, for the rural areas
is not enough. To solve problems like hidden and register unemployment
deficiencies in infrastructure and services we definitely need
more support from the structural funds in rural areas as well.
Q806 Lord Greaves:
Does the Polish Government itself have programmes of development
in the rural areas to help with this?
Mr Gawlik: I know that there was intense co-operation
between two ministries, one dealing with regional development
policy and the second one the Agriculture Ministry in this process
of preparation of a rural development programme to integrate it
with programmes run within regional policy. Unfortunately, I cannot
provide you with the result of that discussion. It was one of
the requirements by the Commission to integrate both types of
programmes. I assume our rural development plan was accepted by
the Commission, so the Commission is satisfied with the result
of this discussion between the two ministries.
Lord Greaves: It is still very early
days. Thank you.
Q807 Viscount Ullswater:
The Commission's Communication envisages two quite substantial
changes, the end of export subsidies and also greater access to
the EU markets for third-country suppliers. How far is Polish
agriculture prepared for such a competitive environment in the
future? Is there a good supply chain from the grower to the market
already established? What changes do you see are either needed
to react to this new competitive climate or just to improve the
efficiency of the sector?
Mr Gawlik: For the European products a possibility
for equal competition with products from the third countries is,
let us say, hampered a little bit by all these strict and quite
high standards which should be fulfilled by our farmers and our
processing sector. In this respect, when the imports come from
the countries where these standards are not respected or lower,
our European industry is in a worse position. If we open our markets
to imports from third-countries the possibility for sales of our
products might be hampered and diminished. It could have some
negative consequences for the consumers and generally for food
security as such. There is a need to protect European agriculture
in such a way as to secure food supply. The situation could be
comparable to that of fuel security as well.
Q808 Chairman:
But there will be continuing pressure, will there not? The commitment
to abolish export subsidies is there and there will be continuing
pressure to decrease tariff barriers, so there will be pressure
to improve efficiency.
Mr Gawlik: Before accession, our agricultural
sector as such was quite efficient and competitive, in many cases
without any export refunds. Taking into account the fact that
the processing side of the sector has adjusted enormously from
just before accession to right now, they will have room for manoeuvre
and the possibility to adjust to a new situation. But on the other
hand after implementation of the CAP and after some years of activity
under the CAP umbrella there might be some problems with a more
open market for third-country imports as well.
Q809 Viscount Ullswater:
Do you see then the output of the farming industry dropping in
the next 10 years, a retraction of the whole sector?
Mr Gawlik: Right now it is hard to assess whether
it will drop or not because we have no agreement at an international
level[9]
about how far our protection will drop. Going back to your question
about concentration and co-operation within the agriculture chain,
I must say that the situation varies between different sectors
because in the poultry sector, for example, this sector is quite
concentrated on the production of the raw materials is quite concentrated
and there is a strong vertical concentration and co-operation
with the processing industry as well. On the contrary sectors
like pig production and pork processing or the fruit and veg sector,
and the processing industry for fruit and veg, there is definitely
a need for adjustment and for actions to support vertical co-operation
between the raw material producers and the processors.
Q810 Baroness Jones of Whitchurch:
As you probably know, the whole issue of climate change is moving
up the political agenda at the moment. In Poland are the farmers
already experiencing the effects of climate change? Is there a
debate going on in Poland about what would need to happen to mitigate
the impact of climate change in the future?
Mr Gawlik: As you have mentioned, our farmers
are experiencing something which could be connected with climate
change. For example, this year there was a strong frost at the
beginning of spring which affected fruit production in many regions
of Poland. As far as more general issues are concerned, the decoupling
of support is helping in a way to cope with climate change because
right now there is no link between how intensive production is
and how big the support is for farms, so definitely less intensive
farming will lead to mitigating negative effects of farming on
the climate. The second pillar of the CAP gives some possibilities
to implement actions which might cope with the negative effects
of climate change. Within the Commission's Communication document
water management was mentioned and within the second pillar it
is possible to support these actions which are connected with
the retention of water or flood control measures.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: What about
trying to cut down on the agricultural impact on CO2 emissions?
Chairman: Greenhouse gases generally,
I think.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: Yes.
Q811 Chairman:
There are a lot of pig farmers.
Mr Gawlik: What about the dairy farming or cattle
farming? In our case, the intensity of this type of production
is definitely lower than in certain other Member States so, of
course, support for extensification of production will be more
welcome, especially in the second pillar. There is quite a big
issue on biofuels or renewable resources of energy where agriculture
might have quite a big influence. This is still an area for discussion,
especially in the case where there are obligatory targets for
the use of biofuels and we think we should start to discuss equal
conditions for the production of raw materials for biofuels or
bio-energy within the European Union. It seems that in new Member
States there has been quite a positive response from farmers and
increase of energy crop production but there is still not equal
treatment for farmers in the old Member States and those in the
new Member States in the level of support for this type of production.
In the old Member States they can use land for which they receive
100% of direct payments plus this energy premium whereas in the
case of new Member States they will receive the energy premium
and lower direct payment due to the phasing in mechanism.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed
for your time and your patience with us. Thank you very much for
helping us with our inquiry.
8 It is after economic and political transition in
1989 Back
9
It means the Doha Round negotiations in the WTO have been not
finalized Back
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