Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 121)
WEDNESDAY 21 NOVEMBER 2007
Mr Tony Bunyan and Professor Steve Peers
Q120 Chairman:
I do not in any way seek to diminish the importance of what you
are saying and I am sure that there is a sub-committee that will
want to look at it.
Mr Bunyan: But you are quite right that it is
not in the Treaty.
Q121 Lord Lester of Herne Hill:
I am not quite sure what you are seeking here, Mr Bunyan. Judges
are not best placed to deal with matters of security, unless there
is some clear breach of a human right or some abuse of power.
Judges, as you know, adopt a hands-off policy when it comes to
questions of national security, with those kinds of exceptions.
Are you saying that what you regret about this is not just the
recognition of greater co-operation by the intelligence services,
but you regret the fact that the European Court of Justice is
not going to have a hands-on approach in reviewing the exercise
of these powers? Or are you accepting in my question that it is
undesirable to think of judicial remedies, except where there
are breaches of human rights or abuses of power? What actually
is your position when you deal with the jurisdiction, as it were?
Mr Bunyan: Yes, I think that they should have
the jurisdiction. I have left out the point, which perhaps should
be obvious, that one must see accountability here. Before these
bodies meet, there must be a national and European Parliament
coming together on what is to be their role. What are the limits
of their role? Are they going to report back? Are we going to
get annual reports? There are always two sides. There is the judicial
side and then there is the democratic side, if you like, about
what role we are allowing these agencies to carry out in our name.
Chairman: These are all questions for
us to ask when they take decisions, if they do take them, under
the provisions of the Treaty, not on the Treaty. May I thank you
very much indeed, Professor Peers and Mr Bunyan, for your evidence
and the very detailed replies that you have given to all our questions.
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