Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20
- 26)
THURSDAY 17 JANUARY 2008
Ms Kathleen Spencer Chapman and Ms Louise King
Q20 Baroness Gale:
Do you think that could cause problems for children's rights?
Ms King: If there was going to be something
which was very positive happening, the UK has got that opt-out
clause; so they could, in fact, decide not to do it and, obviously,
that would be negative if they were not going to opt into some
of those more positive things.
Q21 Lord Lea of Crondall:
Can I declare an interest coming from a trade union background.
Over the years, there are a number of directives that we have
negotiated in Brussels, including four weeks' paid holiday, plus
the bank holidays, of course, and others like the equal rights
for part-time workers. My recollection is that your organisations
have noted and welcomed the fact that there are younger children
and slightly older children and so on and the possibility of parents
being at home, and being able to have a better relationship between
home life and work life, and so on, has an enormous impact on
the welfare of children. Could you comment on how far what people
call Brussels is relevant in that broader sense, because I am
not quite clear? Is the area we have been talking to you about,
the only area, or are there other areas, slightly more indirect,
where the welfare of children, which at the moment leaves something
to be desired in many fields, is also enhanced?
Ms Spencer Chapman: I think it is an important
point. I am not able to comment specifically on details of EU
initiatives regarding issues around employment, but the general
point about children's rights being more visible within EU policy
and police-making, I believe, will also help make those issues
that you have referred to better taken account when there are
discussions around the reconciliation of work and family life,
within, for example, the Lisbon Strategy which deals with growth
and jobs. We believe that there is a broader impact, and by increasing
the visibility of children's rights and interests in those debates,
that will be beneficial.
Ms King: What we envisaged happening as a result
of the new child's rights reference within Treaty is, when policy
is being developed, that there is a child's rights impact assessment
on those policies, and we will be working to make sure children's
rights are actually mainstreamed across a whole range of areas
so they are actually considered. I know a lot of policies are
made when you would not initially think they will have an impact
on children's rights, but they obviously do; so it is about making
sure that it is part of the decision-making process, it is in
the forefront of people's minds when they are making policy, that
they actually consider it, and as a result of that we think there
will be positive benefits for children on a whole range of areas
which the EU has competence on.
Q22 Baroness Young of Hornsey:
You believe that the new citizenship arrangements will considerably
strengthen children and young people's participation rights. Can
you say what some of the barriers to doing that have been so far?
Ms King: In terms of the dialogue that the EU
currently has with children, it is very similar to how children's
rights are actually considered. It is very ad hoc and quite piecemeal,
there is not anything systematic in place in terms of engaging
with the children in policy-making, and we hope that this will
change. There is just not a culture of participation at the moment
embedded within EU institutions, and although there have been
one or two good examples of where children have actually been
engaged, it is very much down to organisations such as ourselves
pushing for that to happen and also about the individuals, like
particular MEPs that are very into this issue and championing
it, rather than actually being across the board. But to talk about
some specific barriers, they have quite a lot of relevance in
this context in the UK as well as in the EU, although we are somewhat
further down the road at the UK level. First of all, I think a
lot of adults do not really know how to engage with children;
they feel quite intimidated; they do not often know how to talk
to them at their level; they do not often see them as equal and
think that they have a view that should be taken into account.
So, I think it is trying to change attitudes to a certain extent
but also supporting people to be to be able to talk with the children,
give them training, all of that kind of thing, and it is also
about not using language which is full of jargon and acronyms.
I think when people are working within institutions it is very
easy to get institutionalised and forget that there is an outside
world that does not know what all these acronyms and jargon things
mean; so it is about addressing those kinds of concerns. There
is also a lack of child-friendly information. If we want children
to engage in an issue, they need to know what it is about. There
is no point presenting a child with a huge document full of detail;
they are not going to understand it. It is about setting up mechanisms
for children to be able to discuss and find out about what the
issue at hand is actually about. Also it is not given the priority
it deserves sometimes. Save the Children has a project at EU level
to try and promote participation, and part of that was doing a
series of training for various members in the Commission, and
we found that it was cancelled sometimes at the last minute, that
training, if something else came up which was of more priority;
so it was quite low on the agenda sometimes and it goes if something
else more important comes up. It is also about consulting with
children and the correct timing. There was an attempt to engage
children in the European Communication White paper, which is key
because it is about how the European Union actually communicates,
and that was during the summer holidays, where children are away,
so that it was quite difficult to get children involved; so it
is quite practical things. Another point is about not trying to
fit children into adult structures but actually setting up mechanisms
where children feel comfortable. There was a debate in the European
Parliament to discuss the Children's Rights Strategy, which was
a really good step forward, and it had NGOs, MEPs and also children
and young people there, but the way the debate was set up would
have been the same probably whether or not children were there.
It is quite intimidating for children, it is quite difficult for
them to slot into the way adults work, but it is actually thinking
about how we can do things with them in partnership. I think a
key thing underlining some of these things is the lack of resources.
It is very easy to say on paper we are going to engage with children
and we are going to have participation, but actually putting it
into practice takes time, and you do need resource to do it, especially
at EU level when there are a lot of practical considerations.
Those are some of the main barriers, I think, at the moment, but
because of the new Article 8, which emphasises trying to get a
more participatory democracy, we think that could, again, make
a difference, along with Article 2, which talks about children,
to actually enhance the fact that participation of children is
actually a good thing and is something that they should be doing.
Just to demonstrate how that can sometimes get taken forward:
in the domestic context, in the Every Child Matters agenda,
one of the outcomes is about making a positive contribution and
we have really seen in recent years in this country how the Government
has gone forward in terms of engaging with children in policy-making,
and I think the UK Government in this context does have quite
a role to play in terms of showing the EU institutions how it
is possible and how it is beneficial for children but also for
policy-makers.
Q23 Lord Lea of Crondall:
I do not want to sound like a dinosaur, but perhaps I cannot avoid
it, but how do you consult children? I am not clear. In the old
days schools and colleges were in loco parentis,
which meant that those organisations act in the same legal capacity
as parents when they are at home, and we have had this conversation
for half an hour, which I have found fascinating, without a reference
to schools. What sort of structure is it that you have got in
mind for a consultation with children? I have not got it.
Ms King: There is no right answer. You should
get away from thinking there is one mechanism that is the right
mechanism because, obviously, depending on the children that you
are consulting with, and children are different, they are not
a homogeneous group, it depends, but it is possible to do it through
a number of youth organisations working in all kinds of European
Union Member States, but there are also national and European
NGOs which have good links with children and links to children's
services and with schools, so it is possible to set up consultation
initiatives with children. Save the Children did quite a big consultation
on the Children's Rights Strategy and actually 1,000 children
from across Europe took part in it, so it is definitely possible,
but it is about having the will to do it. You can do it through
questionnaires, but also, which is better, actually getting children
together and having participatory workshops and having discussions
about policy and feeding back. It might sound quite alien if you
have never done it, but it is quite straightforward to do.
Baroness Perry of Southwark: Perhaps
we should record that most secondary schools do have a schools
council on which students are represented.
Chairman: We are getting short of time.
Lady Uddin did want to ask one question.
Q24 Baroness Uddin:
You may have already said this, but what value framework do you
place on consulting children? Are there some set standards against
which you judge children to be participating in adequate consultation?
I particularly want to refer to your comments that we are not
very good at consulting children or talking to children. That
is not necessarily right across the board, and I think that generalisation
is too broad. I think that if you are consulting children, you
have also got to take on board cultural issues. I think that consulting
children in terms of getting them to participate in sports, or
youth clubs, or whatever, it is, of course, paramount for them
to be able to contribute to society or their own personal development,
but in terms of the value that you place on this, do you also
take on the issues of discrimination, prejudice—that kind
of responsibility for citizenship—because it is something
that we in Britain are much better at than many parts of Europe?
Do you feel that working across Europe that is something that
is a positive force, that you can contribute to the other sister
countries' discussions?
Ms King: Yes.
Q25 Baroness Uddin:
I am sorry; I have raised a number of different and disparate
points.
Ms King: In terms of standards of participation,
it is very easy to be tokenistic, and there are standards. My
organisation has standards. With the UN Convention on the Rights
of the Child, the Committee on the Rights of the Child has actually
in one of its general comments outlined what it means by participation
rights within the Convention; so there are a lot of good reference
points and there is lots of training out there in terms of making
sure that it is not tokenistic, what you are doing. In terms of
benefits of participation as well as it being a human right, and
it is a right to engage in policy-making and active citizenship,
it has a lot of advantages for a number of reasons, and one of
them is the fact that it is very educational. You get to learn
about political institutions, you get to see young people more
likely to be engaged in politics, but also to meet people from
different backgrounds, different cultures across Europe. It can
only do good in terms of getting people to mix with people from
different backgrounds and actually having more mutual respect
for people. So, it has a number of positive things.
Q26 Chairman:
I think I must stop you there because we have run out of our time
allocation for this session, but could I thank you both very much
indeed for a most splendid presentation. You have talked to us
a great deal about this issue and helped us enormously to come
to our conclusions on the impact of the Treaty on these matters.
Thank you very much for coming.
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