Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 268)
MONDAY 19 NOVEMBER 2007
Sir Anthony Brenton
Q260 Lord Anderson of Swansea:
How do you define Russia's national interests in respect of Kosovo?
Sir Anthony Brenton: They have a very strong
interest in international stability, and that goes back a long,
long way. Part of that interest expresses itself therefore in
countries, bits of countries, not becoming independent without
the strongest possible international justification, i.e. a Security
Council resolution. They also have concerns because they are in
effect the protectors of two small bits of Georgia, South Ossetia
and Abkhazia, which themselves have aspirations to independence
and which they see as potentially causing problems for them if
Kosovo becomes independent.
Q261 Lord Truscott:
Back to energy, there was talk of Russia using energy as a political
weapon. Do you agree with that concept? Secondly, we have not
mentioned China, which is particularly relevant in the energy
context. How far do you think bilateral relations between China
and Russia are based on energy interests? Thirdly, which you have
partly mentioned, how should the EU respond to Russia in terms
of ensuring security of supply and all the rest? Do you think—and
you did mention this earlier but I would like you to expand on
it—that the proposed Energy Directive, which some people
have said is potentially protectionist, is the right way to go?
Sir Anthony Brenton: On the energy weapon, a
lot of this started, of course, when they turned off the gas to
Ukraine coming up for two years ago and I think the charges there
were probably exaggerated. They were having an immensely difficult
negotiation, they could not reach conclusion by the deadline,
and so they turned off the gas. I saw President Putin and others
extremely hurt at the charge that they had done this for political
reasons. That said, we have seen them use energy supply in relation
to political concerns, notably when the trains carrying oil to
Estonia stopped running at the height of that crisis. There is
no doubt in my mind that in extreme political circumstances this
could happen, and therefore this leads to what I have already
said about the Energy Directive: I think we need to make sure
that we, being the EU, insure ourselves against that risk and
the best insurance that I can see, given that inevitably we are
going to be very large consumers of Russian gas, is unity, is
the EU being able to react as one should we be confronted with
that situation. That is the point about the Energy Directive.
Of course we do not support protectionism. One of the other things
I keep on saying in my speeches around Russia is that we have
the most open economy in Europe and that accounts for our very
fast growth and our success, and we do not want to limit that.
But, for me, we need to build the right political protections
in there in case we got into a crisis where the Russians were
tempted to use the energy weapon. On China, obviously, the Russians
are very conscious of this giant growing up—not to their
east; there are bits of Russia which are east of China—to
their south-east. They have worked rather hard to develop their
relations with China. They have in particular invented a thing
called the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation where they work
together, they have joint military exercises; they take a less
democratically orientated view of international affairs and we
do. I think they are very keen to build a close economic relationship,
to make sure that there is no real security threat to themselves
down there and to work with the Chinese where they can, as they
do very frequently in the Security Council.
Q262 Lord Swinfen:
Is there much in the way of immigration from China into Russia
along that long border?
Sir Anthony Brenton: Yes, there are a large
number of Chinese working in Russia, both legally and illegally,
and obviously, part of what is at the back of certain Russian
policymakers' minds is an awareness that there is this huge China,
full of people, right next to a very empty part of Russia and
there are lurking security concerns there—not for now but
for perhaps decades down the track. I think probably one of Putin's
historic achievements was to finally agree on the border with
China, which he did two and a half years ago, and I think that
is a concern at the back of some Russians' minds.
Q263 Lord Swinfen:
Are there sufficient jobs to absorb the Chinese across the border?
Sir Anthony Brenton: I do not think they would
cross if they could not get jobs, would they?
Q264 Lord Swinfen:
I doubt it but if the land is open ...
Sir Anthony Brenton: No, there is employment.
It is not the most prosperous part of Russia, strangely. You have
this bit of Russia which is sitting on the booming Pacific coast
which, because of problems with its governance, is just distanced
from the metropolis. There are still huge development possibilities
there which have not yet been grasped.
Q265 Lord Anderson of Swansea:
There is still only a fairly embryonic counter-terrorism element
within the European Union but there are clearly areas of common
interest with Russian in respect of counter-terrorism. How are
such relationships moving?
Sir Anthony Brenton: I am afraid I cannot speak
for the European Union as a whole. We certainly work quite hard
to build up our links with the Russians on counter-terrorism because
they have had their own Islamic fundamentalist problem and there
are undoubtedly links between the problem they have faced and
the problems that we have faced. I have to say, one of the consequences
of the Litvinenko affair has been a certain amount of damage to
links between the agencies which normally deal with these things.
We have been very clear with the Russians that if we, for example,
get information of a real threat to them, which would involve
danger to human life, then we would always provide them with information
which would be relevant on that, and we would hope they would
do the same for us
Q266 Lord Anderson of Swansea:
Has it essentially been a one-way street so far?
Sir Anthony Brenton: I do not think so, but
I need to be very careful what I say in this area. My understanding
is there is a shared interest there, there is a shared competence
there, it should be said, and there is scope for co-operation
if we could get over the political difficulties we have at the
moment.
Q267 Lord Swinfen:
Is there co-operation on Afghanistan?
Sir Anthony Brenton: I know the Russians are
essentially helpful on Afghanistan. For example, they give over-flying
rights, and so on, to troops going in and out of Afghanistan.
I do not think we fly in over Russia, but others who are active
there certainly do. I know there is quite a lot of co-operation
between Russia and NATO on that sort of front. I know also that
on the anti-drug exercises in Afghanistan we have quite close
links with the Russian authorities on that because they are a
major transit route for Afghan drugs.
Q268 Chairman:
It is interesting that there was a Memorandum of Understanding
between the European Union and Russia signed on this exchange
of information on drug abuse, so that was quite important. Ambassador,
thank you very much indeed for coming this afternoon and having
helped us a great deal in our inquiry. We will be continuing,
both here, in Moscow and again in Brussels at the end of this
week, to talk to people in the European Union. We are very grateful
for your contribution to our inquiry this afternoon.
Sir Anthony Brenton: Thank you for giving me
your time. If I am in Moscow, I look forward to seeing some of
you out there.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
| 
