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I am not sure exactly who is in charge of this wonderful creation. My own view is that local authorities need to look with great caution at what is being proposed in this part of the Bill. It is not easy to see where the local interests end and the Secretary of State’s interest begins—I accept that.
I do not doubt the good intentions of the Government, but under Parts 6 to 9 all the essential decisions can be taken by the Secretary of State. I wonder whether that is right. I think it is inevitable. We need to worry seriously on behalf of local government. This comes back to accountability. I have always believed that accountability goes where the money comes from; there is no escaping that. Unless we can put that right, we will not get local government that genuinely serves its community in an absolute way. I think the task is probably impossible. I regret that.
The Bill will provoke a great deal of interest in Committee, when we will have many ways to improve it. In particular, we will be trying to reduce the overall interest of the Secretary of State and to make sure that local authorities are freer to manage and look after their own affairs.
7.21 pm
Baroness Andrews: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this excellent and thoughtful debate, which has given me pause for thought. I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, to the Front Bench—or to the hell that is, in short, local government legislation. I think that the season of good will has been short; I hope that things improve as the season rolls forward. I look forward to more constructive engagement—shall we say?—at later stages of the Bill, when we get down to the detail of what it is designed to do and what it will achieve.
I very much welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said in his summing-up speech about shared recognition of the problem. There were times, as I listened to the Front-Bench responses, when I wondered whether there was shared recognition of the problem and, indeed, the task to be undertaken. I will return to the noble Lord’s sensible challenge about whether we have incentivised or helped the best to improve. I particularly welcome the support offered by the noble Lord, Lord Best, and my noble friends Lord Smith and Lady Ford. They speak with total authority about local authorities and what they want, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Best, as president of the Local Government Association.
I also welcome the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, took the time to describe what a messy process local democracy is. On the one hand, I am not going to apologise for the ambitions in the Bill, although I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, that I thought that it was a parody to say that anyone described the Bill as being the solution to all problems. It certainly is not, but it is a solution to some of the problems that we think we can deal with. On the other hand, I should say that, as questions have been raised about what is not in the Bill, she will know, as will other noble Lords, that we were unable to legislate on all the White Paper commitments in this Session. We
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I agree that you cannot legislate—and you should not try—to force people to take an active part in the community. That would be absurd. What we are trying to do—and it is the right thing to do—is to see how we can remove barriers to democratic engagement. If we divide on whether legislation is necessary, we do not divide on whether we think that it is worth trying to establish what, with only 35 per cent of people voting in local elections, is stopping people understanding and engaging with what is going on in their local community when there are so many things on a day-to-day basis that make their lives more difficult and, in some instances, almost intolerable. What can we do to encourage more understanding, democratic engagement and economic working together?
I shall be delighted to meet the noble Lord, Lord Mawson. I cannot promise that that will occur before the Committee stage, as I think that that is due to start fairly imminently when we return after Christmas. Everything that he said was right. I say that not just on the basis of his experience but on the basis of our experience of working through regeneration situations and projects. Social enterprise is the big idea. Relationships work, not structures, but sometimes without an enabling structure you do not get to first base as regards constructing relationships based on trust. However, we clearly have a lot to learn. As he will know, £5.9 million has been allocated to improve social enterprise business support through the RDAs alone. He will know how much this Government have spent on social enterprise, and quite deliberately so.
I must confess that I was a bit disappointed by the slightly negative responses of the noble Baronesses, Lady Warsi and Lady Hamwee. I refer to what the noble Lord, Lord Best, said in that regard. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Graham analysed the range of didactic responses that the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, made to the Bill. If one dismisses the content of the Bill, one needs to be very careful about putting oneself at odds with the evidence, including all the evidence that I quoted. Certainly, the party opposite needs to be careful about putting itself at odds with the LGA, which has welcomed the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Best, said, the Bill underpins and emboldens the effort that can go into raising the quality of local democracy. The party opposite needs to be careful about putting itself at odds with the best that local government can achieve, whether that is a voluntary coming together in multi-area agreements, proactive engagement with local democracy or, indeed, the leaders’ boards that my noble friend Lord Smith described. Such an attitude puts the party opposite at odds with what the Bill intends to, and will, achieve. It is not a panacea, but it is an important and measured step forward.
I was slightly disappointed that there was not more positive engagement with the single regional strategy, which has been universally welcomed as constituting an end to the absurd separation of spatial strategy and economic strategy. I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Ullswater, who I believe is not in his place—
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Baroness Andrews: I beg the noble Viscount’s pardon, my Lords. I am mortified. I had not noticed that he is the Deputy Speaker. Therefore, he cannot interrupt me. I understand some of the historic anxieties about the regional arrangements. However, far from creating a messy situation, we are creating something that is more transparent and more streamlined and is positively sought by the regions.
Before I answer some of the specific questions, I wish to refer to a few of the larger themes. On the balance between duties and the voluntary enabling of local authorities, why do we need duties? The LGA certainly welcomes the duty to promote democracy, as I said. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, said that this has been done for decades. Indeed, some local authorities have been doing it for decades. However, as my noble friend Lord Borrie said, many have not. This duty is not carried out well or systematically in many areas. An exemplary council such as the one represented by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, may well have written an entire document on how to carry out this duty. However, doing nothing is not an option as regards communicating local authority responsibilities to local communities. We are imposing a duty because we think that the discipline is necessary. We need consistency as regards access and scope.
On the new duty on economic assessments, Middlesex University published in March this year the Review of Economic Assessment and Strategy Activity at the Local and Sub-regional Level. That reviewed the range and types of economic assessments and observed that many assessments failed to provide a coherent view of local economic conditions, paid little attention to wider sub-regional economies and displayed little integration and co-ordination of activity across spatial scales. We need to do something about that because information is the basis of judgment and proper and better decision-making.
On the other hand, and by way of balance, the economic prosperity boards are voluntary. The duties around multi-area agreements are voluntary. They are there as additional powers to be used as and when those local authorities think that they need them and can make best use of them. The noble Lord, Lord Best, asked me to demonstrate that there is balance between the powers that enable the Government to provide a framework and minimal regulation. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, begged me to show how— particularly in relation to petitions—we seek minimal regulation. I take as an example the leaders’ board. The leaders’ board, which has been anticipated in the north-west, creates its own configuration in response to the region’s geography, history, politics and circumstances. If we look across the regions, we find different configurations; different leadership arrangements will be put in place. The south-east, for example, aims to establish the south-east leaders’ board by April 2009 to replace the assembly. It will be very different from that of the north-west. We are not laying down templates or patterns; we are not telling people how to do it.
On petitions, we have not set thresholds. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, about his own responsiveness. The distinction between
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I do not think that the leaders’ boards would be exclusive clubs, as was suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Moreover, the EPBs are voluntary organisations, made up of elected local authorities that want them and have shown that they are likely to deliver benefits. The noble Lord, Lord Best, quoting from the Local Government Chronicle, said that there is a “zest” for sub-regional powers. We are trying to build on that sort of zest, enabling people to take advantage of it. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, asked how the Bill will encourage the best to do better. That is an example of an opportunity that is not there at the moment.
Members of the EPB will not be appointed by the Secretary of State. It will be up to local authorities to come up with the membership arrangements for the EPB. I think that that was one of the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith. The Bill also sets out that any members of an EPB who are not elected members of constituent authorities must be non-voting unless the voting members agree to change this.
I turn now to some of the specific questions raised by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Best, asked about the delegation of functions. We have taken a deliberate decision not to legislate to provide for RDAs to delegate their functions and decision-making powers to local authorities. We still want to deliver the outcomes discussed in the SNR, but it is important to preserve the current flexibility inherent in the RDAs’ single-funding arrangements, and to keep the direct line of accountability to RDAs for the use of money voted to them by Parliament. That is important during a period of economic challenge. Because of that, we now intend to pursue the investment planning approach, which many regions already successfully utilise and which the RDAs and the LGA put forward in their joint response to the SNR consultation.
Under this proposal, the regional strategy implementation plan would set out a broad regional programme of outcomes to be delivered in the region. This would then be worked up into detailed local plans setting out a clear investment blueprint for an individual area. Regional partners, including RDAs and local authorities, will be involved in developing these plans, agreeing the level of support involved, which is very important, and signing them off; but it would then be for local authorities to take forward the delivery elements. That is a genuine, organic and deliverable partnership.
The noble Lord, Lord Best, then raised the question of the tenants’ voice, which was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi. That is in the Bill because
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The noble Lord particularly asked me about the compact arrangement, going back to the tenants’ voice, and whether the Bill should be used to protect private tenants. We would expect the National Tenant Voice to consider this when it is up and running; that would be a useful task for it. In terms of the compact, we are very well aware of the opportunity that the Bill might present. There is still a lot of consultation, because it is not simple, but we are talking to people about some of the implications and how best they might be addressed. I can give the noble Lord a qualified positive response.
In relation to Wales and the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, even if he were the only one at that meeting, I am sure that he spoke for all his comrades in Wales and will bring those messages back to this House. We have given Wales what it requested, where possible. Obviously, that includes the framework power on governance and scrutiny. No framework power on petitions was requested by the Welsh Assembly, so we have met in full what WGA wanted, but I would certainly be happy to write to the noble Lord if there are any further details. In Committee, we will explore where that might take us.
In relation to the issues raised by my noble friend Lord Smith of Leigh about why health bodies were not included on the list of partner authorities for the economic assessment duty, we limited the list to those bodies we thought had a particular economic focus. We did not want to place burdens on those bodies that did not have such a significant economic role. However, if authorities wish to consult other bodies that they think are important to the local economy, they are able to do so. We can tease some of that out in Committee. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, raised a related question about why there was no duty to co-operate on partner authorities on the economic assessment duties. We took the view that we should not place an undue burden on partner authorities by forcing them to participate in large numbers of assessments. Again, it is the question of balance. As the Bill is drafted, partner authorities can be involved but do not have to have a large role where they do not feel it is necessary.
My noble friend Lord Borrie raised some very interesting questions which, in a way, were counterpart questions to those asked by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, about the messiness of democracy and whether the arrangements would lead to the process being hijacked. In relation to petitions, we have made it clear that local authorities can act to prevent petitions being hijacked by people who are intent on vexatious or harassing activities. That is certainly something that we are aware of, which can be addressed in guidance, I suspect.
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My noble friend Lord Graham returned to a theme which he has resolutely maintained in this House, and rightly so, about freemen. Given that this Bill is not least about equality, it is appropriate that he should bring forward an amendment on that, and I look forward to having that debate with him.
Finally, my noble friend Lord O’Neill and the noble Viscount, Lord Ullswater, raised the question of the construction industry, and I take their detailed points. We are doing something which will be of great benefit to the construction industry at this particular time, but clearly points of detail, involving notice of payments and so on, need to be addressed. My noble friend Lord Brett will have the great pleasure of taking those parts of the Bill through Committee. Given his grasp of the industry and the implications for it, we will have very good and constructive debates on that issue.
I hope that I have addressed most of the questions that have been raised in the context of what the Bill is trying to do.
I return to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. The scheduling of debates in Grand Committee is obviously agreed through the usual channels, but my noble friend the Chief Whip has today undertaken to look again at the dates and to consult with the usual channels. The point is taken. Although we are stretched for resources, I would particularly like to have the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in action on this Bill, because I have found him to be a constant source of information and inspiration on local government. I learn a great deal every time that he and I engage. I look forward very much to that and I hope that the usual channels can work out a solution.
In conclusion, I reiterate that the Bill is based on evidence, on what people want and what people know works. It is based on an ambition to try to tackle a problem that is getting worse—the ageing of our elected local authority officers and, if we are not careful, a sclerosis in the type of people who come forward in local government. That issue should be balanced with the need to engage local government at a regional level in more effective ways. I should say to the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, that there is no internal contradiction in the Bill; it is about local democracy and the effectiveness of local economic arrangements at regional and local levels. The Bill is completely consistent on that point. It is also consistent in that it is an enabling Bill which we seek to put into operation with the lightest touch possible. We shall be marching alongside the Local Government Association, the good work of local authorities in the new leaders’ boards and much else.
With those assurances, I hope that we will enter the season of goodwill feeling heaps more cheerful about the Bill, and that by the time we reach Committee we will agree on detail as well as principle. I beg to move that the Bill be committed to a Grand Committee.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, briefly, I am grateful for what the noble Baroness said, but I must make it clear that the usual channels—certainly our usual channels—did not agree to the scheduling of business. Objecting to committing a Bill to a Grand Committee—in other words, wishing that it be dealt with on the
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I have talked about the wish to contribute and, despite my unhelpful comments earlier, both I and my colleagues wish to contribute to this Bill and to the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. It does not seem to us that there is an urgency that needs to be addressed in either of the Bills. With good will and with consultation between the usual channels—I am not addressing this to the Minister—we could be more effective in producing
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Baroness Andrews: My Lords, the point has been taken and I will ensure that the usual channels are open. I take note of what the noble Baroness said.
Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand Committee.
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