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In addition to the guidance that the Secretary of State must give in relation to the contribution that the Marine Management Organisation is expected to give to sustainable development, which we will debate later today, the marine policy statement, which we will debate under Part 3, enables the Government to take a broad strategic view across a range of government policies in the marine environment. It will then be up to the Marine Management Organisation to produce plans within that context. As its expertise develops it will become a strategic delivery body in the marine environment. The status that will be given to the MMO as a non-departmental public body gives it that degree of independence which is clearly essential, but ensures that it will remain answerable to Parliament through the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
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As a non-departmental public body, it is axiomatic that the MMO must carry out its functions in a way that serves the public interest. As the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy—reinforced by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor—said, in the end, that public interest duty lies primarily in the Secretary of State’s accountability to Parliament. It is within that context that the Marine Management Organisation has to operate. While it must operate within the public interest, it is with Ministers, through their accountability to Parliament, that the overriding public interest responsibility must lie.
For that reason, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment. I do not disagree with her general comment about the pressures on our marine life and marine environment or the tensions and pressures that the Marine Management Organisation will have to deal with, but that has to work within the parameters set down by Parliament in the directions and guidance given by Ministers and the marine policy statement. For that reason, I resist the noble Baroness’s amendment.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I am very grateful to Members of the Committee who have spoken. To the noble Lord, Lord Eden of Winton, I would say that perhaps I did not emphasise enough that the establishment of the marine conservation zones is a crucial part of the Bill. Until they are established, until marine areas have a healthy ecosystem and until we can see high-level reserves to preserve the best and most precious things, and lower- level reserves to preserve the others, we would not be in the slightest bit reassured by anything else in the Bill. Just over the water from where I live, Lundy is the first highly protected marine no-take zone in Britain. Having seen some of the small effects around, and the experience of, Lundy, I can say that these reserves will work in a surprisingly short time.
I shall deal with some of the criticisms of the amendment, which in one way are hard to understand. It is difficult to represent the public interest in marine areas simply because no people live offshore. My noble friend Lady Hamwee put it beautifully when she said that the amendment deals with private interests on behalf of the public. That is because there is no public representation of marine areas except for coastal ones, with the complexities of which we shall no doubt deal later. Therefore I would say gently to the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, that there are no people to deal with these issues in the same way as they would be dealt with in the terrestrial environment. Nevertheless, we had much bigger aspirations for Natural England when it was established than seems to be the case for the Marine Management Organisation.
Before I withdraw the amendment, I refer noble Lords to the general objectives of the Marine Management Organisation set out in Clause 2, which really are pretty bureaucratic. Subsection (1)(a) states that the body should exercise its functions,
That is necessary but not really a high-level objective. Subsection (1)(b) provides that the body should contribute,
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Again, this is a duty that we lay on every public body that we choose to create because it is so important. I shall endeavour to think of a more acceptable way of phrasing this amendment, and I accept the Minister’s comment that the public interest is represented through Secretaries of State to Parliament. Nevertheless, he needs to think of how this body could better engage with the public, and to that end I refer him back to the comments of the Joint Committee, which cannot be bettered: the body must be seen to do so from the outset.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: We need to draw a distinction between whether the words “public interest” should appear in the Bill in relation to the duties of the Marine Management Organisation and whether the body should be seen as one that listens to and communicates with the public. I want to make it clear that we expect the organisation to have a positive and interactive relationship with the public and all organisations with interests in this area.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I am grateful to the Minister. I sense that a small chink has opened up to suggest that between now and the Report stage, he might join me in discussing a form of words that provide a more worthy objective in the purposes of the MMO. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
5 pm
Schedule 1 : The Marine Management Organisation
Lord Greaves: In the curious way of these things, we now move away from discussing major issues of principle and get on to what might be called the Committee nitty-gritty. In addressing Schedule 1 we leap to page 212, where we shall stay for a while before going back to page 2. In moving Amendment 6 I shall speak also to Amendments 8 to 11 in the group. They refer to the membership of the Marine Management Organisation, and all are probing in nature in order to discuss the size of the organisation and the purposes of its members, as well as what expertise and skills they should have.
Amendment 6 seeks to remove the provision that the membership should be between five and eight, which with the chairman would be a range of six to nine, and replaces it with a provision that there should be nine or more members. The Government also suggest that, despite these clear and restrictive numbers being in the Bill, the Secretary of State can nevertheless change them to anything else if they do not turn out well. Amendment 10, by seeking to remove that, again probes exactly what the situation should be.
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Amendment 8 probes the question of the skills and experience required. Paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 says that,
- “the Secretary of State must have regard to the desirability ... of securing that a variety of skills and experience is available among the members”.
and insert a much stronger wording, so that the paragraph would read: “As far as is practical, the skills and experience of the members cover the full range of functions of the MMO”.
It is interesting to go back to the useful draft document on the MMO, which the Government have kindly provided, to look at what the Government believe to be the experience and expertise required by MMO board members. The Government refer to three pillars of sustainable development: economic, environmental and social. Under “economic”, they suggest that experience of aggregate extraction is relevant, along with experience of renewable energy—which is very different—fishing, ports and harbours, and shipping. These are all economic factors and they are all very different. Somebody with experience of renewable energy will not necessarily know about shipping. Under “environmental”, the Government suggest experience of habitats, fish stocks and water quality, which seems to understate what is required. We need to think about questions of conservation and biodiversity, particularly the proposals for conservation zones, and questions of the geology and geomorphology of the seabed. Under “social”, they list, for example, heritage, recreation and defence. Clearly, somebody who is expert in heritage is not necessarily expert in defence. Indeed, that would be very unlikely. Recreation is different again.
These are 10 examples, although they are not exclusive. How is the board of this organisation to get the experience and skills that it requires if it has only six members? Six seems to be very much on the low side. I understand and accept that you do not want a big public meeting every time the board meets. The body has to be relatively small, but the numbers that the Government are proposing seem a little restrictive.
I am grateful to the Conservative Members for adding their names to Amendment 9, which refers to the need for experience and knowledge of marine science—that is not on the Government’s list—and marine conservation.
Amendment 11 is slightly different; it probes remuneration and allowances. The Bill says that the Secretary of State may specify the level of remuneration and allowances of members of the board. This is a probing “may/shall” amendment. It is the first of the Bill, but no doubt there will be many more. Perhaps there will be some “shall/may” ones as well. Is it the Government’s intention that the Secretary of State shall specify the remuneration and allowances? If so, why does the Bill not say so? The first question, then, is will they be paid? The assumption is that they will. Secondly, who will decide what they are paid? The assumption is that it will be the Secretary of State. Will the Minister confirm that? Thirdly, how much will these lucky people be paid? I do not imagine that
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These are nitty-gritty amendments that refer to the membership of the board, but the board and the people on it are going to be very important if this is to be successful, and it is right that the Committee should probe the matter.
Earl Cathcart: I declare that I have been a local councillor for 10 years and a member of a number of conservation and sporting bodies, including the Game Conservancy Trust, the BASC and the Salmon and Trout Association.
While we sympathise with the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, regarding the number of people on the board of the MMO, it raises the question of just how many people should be on it. I think that he was trying to probe that very thing. We are all in favour of the MMO having sufficient membership that its work can be carried out effectively and efficiently. I agree with the noble Lord that having only between five and eight members seems to be on the low side. I recall that when the Housing and Regeneration Bill and the Planning Bill set up organisations last year, they proposed more than a minimum of five members for such bodies.
Nevertheless, the removal from the Bill of the number of members is potentially dangerous. The MMO must not become just another quango filled with paid bodies without enough work, although I am sure that it will not. How many people does the Minister think will be needed on the board, and where does he feel the optimal ratio of manpower to workload might be? He might not be able to answer that, because at this stage he does not know what workload will be put on the MMO.
Amendment 8 seems sensibly to change,
into “skills and experience” that will,
That organisation has a broad remit, which makes it all the more vital that the relevant skills and experience are there to cover all aspects of the MMO’s duties. A variety is certainly useful but, if the MMO is to carry out its duties fully and effectively, it needs a full remit of skills.
I am also happy to support Amendment 9, to which we have put our names, to ensure that when appointing the chair or members of the board of the MMO the Secretary of State has regard to the desirability of making sure that there is sufficient scientific representation. The functions of the MMO as defined in Clause 2 make it clear that it would be advisable and wise to have those with experience in marine science and/or marine conservation on the board. The MMO is concerned with helping to secure the achievement of sustainable development and it would seem wrong to attempt to do so without a proportion of the board having appropriate knowledge and experience in that area.
We do not think that the Government are in any way against having such people on the board; indeed,
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- “experience of, and ... some capacity in, some matter relevant to the exercise of the MMO’s functions”,
were supposed to refer. Nevertheless, we are happy that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has sought to have this more specifically defined. It is vital to ensure that the MMO can carry out its functions to the highest standards. How important does the Minister regard the presence of those with knowledge of and experience in marine science on the MMO board? If he considers it to be important, why has that not been defined in the Bill? It is difficult to see what could be gained from that omission but easy to see how much effective marine management could be put at risk. Perhaps the Minister could clarify that.
Amendment 10 would remove the Secretary of State’s power to amend the numbers on the board of the MMO. That lack of flexibility could be damaging if changes needed to be made to streamline, strengthen or improve the MMO’s functioning. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.
5.15 pm
Lord Eden of Winton: I welcome the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in that it opens up the question of the ideal size of the board of the MMO. I strongly support the amendment spoken to by my noble friend, because there should be somebody with knowledge of marine science and marine conservation on the board. That seems to be absolutely vital and should go without question. However, if there is any doubt, it is desirable that it be written into the Bill.
That said, I favour a smaller board. If we are to try to make the board representative of particular interests within the public domain, it will be very large indeed and endlessly increase in size. Worse, the quality of its debate, discussion and decision-making will decline. I certainly do not want to see special interests represented on the board simply because they are special interests. I favour a smaller board with the power to co-opt others should the need arise on specific occasions. I hope that that is the direction in which the Minister will take us.
The Earl of Selborne: I support Amendment 9. I should, however, declare an interest as chair of the advisory board of the National Oceanography Centre, Southampton. It goes without saying that there simply must be marine science and conservation expertise on the committee. However, I agree with my noble friend who has just spoken that we are always at this game, trying to ensure that our own interests are represented on such a committee—I remember a debate of this kind taking place in relation to the climate change committee. If every interest is to be represented, the committee becomes unwieldy. I hope, however, that the Minister will give a firm assurance that it is inconceivable that marine science would not be one of the represented areas of expertise in the Marine Management Organisation.
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Baroness Young of Old Scone: I support the view that this body needs a strong focus on marine science and environmental conservation science—when I come to talk about my Amendment 28A, your Lordships will better understand why. In a body such as this, which is aimed at bringing together a whole variety of competing interests and developing some sort of consensus if possible, there will be a need to make sure that, if consensus and agreement are not possible, it makes decisions on the basis of good evidence and scientific information, rather than simply of voting power. For that reason, I used to be attracted by the idea of a smaller rather than a larger board. However, perhaps I could give the Minister the benefit of a little knowledge gained from recent personal experience setting up an organisation in his former field of health, the Care Quality Commission. Having gone for a smaller board there, I regretted deeply the proposition. With issues as complex as the marine environment, there is a range of different perspectives—not necessarily interest groups or stakeholders, but perspectives that need to be represented around the table when decisions are being made. I would therefore favour a board that is bigger than five, and probably bigger than eight, but that has an upper limit, because it needs to be effective and to be able to resist through a statutory limit on its size pressure for every interest group under the sun to be represented on it.
Baroness Hamwee: I agree with those noble Lords who have talked about perspectives, as the noble Baroness just did. It would be a mistake to try to see interest groups represented. After all, what are the staff and consultants to the organisation, and so on, to do? An organisation is almost bound to fail if it relies primarily or only on the expertise of individual board members. We are talking about something much more than this.
Eight is a low number and it seems odd that the Government want to impose such a low ceiling at this early stage, particularly as the Secretary of State has the right to move all these things around. There are skills and qualities beyond expertise that need to contribute to the workings of the board—things such as judgment and openness to other people’s areas of knowledge, as well as having enough knowledge to understand what is being discussed without necessarily being expert in the subject. I think, too, that the dynamics of a board composed of different numbers needs to be one consideration. A board of five would probably behave a bit differently from a board of eight and certainly very differently from a board of 12 or 16, so I question whether it is sensible to put such a low ceiling on the number.
When we debated the Planning Bill and the Housing and Regeneration Bill, to which the noble Earl referred, we were told that these schedules were very much in standard form. However, comparing this schedule to those pieces of legislation, I do not think that this is completely standard. For instance, last year the Government resisted a restriction on board members serving for more than a total period of however many years. We have 10 years here and the IPC has five to eight years, whereas for the Homes and Communities Agency the period is unlimited. As for my noble friend’s amendment to paragraph 11, on remuneration,
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Lord Tyler: I shall contribute briefly, not least because I wanted to congratulate my noble friend Lady Hamwee on spending her birthday in your Lordships’ House, which shows great self-sacrifice. I have no particular interest to declare, although if under one of our later amendments we add the Youth Hostel Association to one of the schedules, I will. At this stage, however, I come to the matter dispassionately, without any special interest, except that for a number of years I represented the most beautiful coastal constituency in the United Kingdom.
These are probing amendments, as my noble friend Lord Greaves said, but they are none the less significant. The nature of the MMO lies not just in how we describe it and the semantics that we discussed under the previous sets of amendments, but in the type of people whom we expect to go on its board. I have served on a number of public bodies and have advised a number of others and I take seriously the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone. It is difficult to think of any organisation with as wide a remit as this legislation gives to the MMO that would be able to cope with all those responsibilities and have that wide range of perspectives to which my noble friends have referred with a maximum of perhaps only nine members—eight members and the chairman. On a practical point, after my experience of the organisations that I have served and advised, I think that having such a low ceiling on the number, simply with regard to retaining a quorum when you have a lot of business to deal with, seems ill advised to say the least.
The range of expertise to which my noble friends Lord Greaves and Lady Hamwee have referred is itself a significant pointer to what we should be doing, but there are simple practicalities. The dynamic of an organisation as small as might be supposed from the text of the Bill would lead to an unfortunate type of body, which would not be seen by the public whom it is serving to represent them sufficiently
It is also essential that we pass Amendment 9. I think that there is unanimity across the Chamber that that measure should be firmly in the Bill. I hope that the Minister will respond positively to our amendment on that.
Finally, on payment, I had not spotted the discrepancies with other legislation that has gone through your Lordships’ House in recent months, a matter to which my noble friend Lady Hamwee referred. It is odd to have this curious “may” popped in when surely it will be a matter of “shall”. Why do we not start at the outset, as my noble friend Lord Greaves said, trying to get the “may” and the “shall” sorted? We might save ourselves a great deal of time later in Committee.
Baroness Byford: I support my noble friend’s amendment and especially its mention of,
I sat in on the committee and, apart from some of the organisations fighting for a place to represent themselves
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