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The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made an interesting observation on quorums. I remember taking another Bill through—I do not remember exactly which one—and one of my colleagues, who sits on the Labour Benches, saying that reaching a quorum was one of the difficulties facing the quango board on which he served. As only a small number of people served on that board, it was pushed to reach a quorum if somebody was off sick or away on business. I am sorry that I cannot quote who said it or the name of the Bill. There is clearly a risk for very small quangos of not being able to get their business through. However, on the broader issue, the feedback we received when we looked at the Bill in great detail was that we need representation from marine science or marine conservation. I therefore support my noble friend’s amendment.
Lord Oxburgh: I do not think that I have any special interest to declare except that in the distant past I was a member of the council of the Royal Society. It is important that scientific advice is available to the board, and I am not sure that the wording of the amendment goes far enough. At Second Reading I emphasised the complexity of the marine environment. It is not clear whether there is any such beast as “marine science”. What one would really like to see is a range of scientific expertise available to the board when it is making its decisions. We do not want a token scientist on the board. I hope that the Minister, perhaps at a later stage, will consider providing assurances or wording in an amendment that indicates that a range of scientific expertise will be available to the board and that the board should not be simply a grouping of commercial interests and a token scientist.
Lord Kingsland: It would be wrong for me to anticipate my amendments, which will follow shortly. Perhaps I may just draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, to them, and hope that he will speak to them with equal warmth when the time comes.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: We have heard that the board will be small, but it would be helpful if the Minister could say something about what arrangements, if any, the Government have in mind for regional representation. I am not advocating a system that allocates places to a member from the south-west, a member from the north-east, and so on, as that would be far too limiting given what other noble Lords have said about the need for scientific expertise and perhaps for representation of commercial interests. However, I would like to hear the Government’s thinking on whether, and how, the MMO will devolve its powers, perhaps on a regional basis.
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5.30 pm
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: Listening to this extremely interesting and important debate, my mind goes back to the wisdom in the earlier intervention of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, when she talked about this body being a referee. The Minister said that that is not exactly what it is, but there is an element of that. The job will be the reconciling of conflicting interests. There was an earlier suggestion that the public interest and private interests were sort of opposites. That is not necessarily the case, but there will be all sorts of different interests. The important thing will be that this body is able to understand properly what those interests are and what they are saying, and come to a conclusion that works in practice.
That must happen. As we all know, it will not happen if people are just sticking up for their own interests. Those of us who have chaired such bodies—and several noble Lords have spoken from that perspective—know that you need people who are good at reconciling interests and getting the necessary information, people who are good at identifying and understanding the interests and then discussing and reconciling them. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and the noble Baroness, Lady Young, had considerable insight into that. That would obviously happen more easily if the body was not enormous, but there must be enough people there to get an understanding.
As one would expect, the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, was trying to visualise how the necessary information could be put before the board. It may be that it will have to bring people in when it is discussing the different interests. I have chaired a body that had to do that in a different context. The really important thing is that the membership must be capable of doing this job. As for size, that will have to take into account the quorum issue. The body will have to include a wide spread of understanding but also be able to bring in the necessary information. The Bill has not quite faced up to that, but perhaps this discussion will help the Minister to grasp the issue and improve upon it.
Lord Greenway: I remind the Committee that the Joint Committee recommended that the MMO should establish a scientific advisory panel. According to the Government’s response, that is perfectly possible; it is merely a decision for the MMO board. Marine science will be covered, but that does not necessarily mean that we must have a marine scientist as a member of the board.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: This has been an interesting and helpful debate. The Government will of course reflect on the views expressed as we take forward—assuming the legislation is passed—the establishment of the MMO board. I also take this opportunity to inform Members of the Committee of the timing of the board’s appointment and the process whereby that will be undertaken. I understand from the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that some of these amendments are probing amendments.
First, board members will be appointed by the Secretary of State in line with the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ code of practice and in line
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We have had an interesting debate on the numbers of ordinary MMO board members to be appointed. As Members of the Committee will know, the Bill allows a range of five to eight members in addition to the chair. If I included all the various interests and considerations that noble Lords have expressed this afternoon, we would probably already have reached a board of 20 or more. On the other hand, the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, has put it very well. The calibre required of those who will have to exercise their judgment when faced with all the pressures and interests wishing to influence the MMO indicates that one would ideally have a small board. I am sure that those of us with experience of public bodies will have worked on both small and larger boards. I accept the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, but, in the main, smaller boards work more effectively. That is why we went for the range of five to eight.
There is a range rather than a specified number because it is normal practice when setting up a new organisation to specify the approximate number of members that should comprise its board. However, there must be a minimum number for it to operate effectively and have sufficient breadth of expertise and skills. It is envisaged that the MMO board should comprise eight ordinary members plus a chair.
Lord Glentoran: I apologise for having been in and out this afternoon. What will be the quorum for a board of five, for example? Knowing a little about quangos and public bodies, it seems to me that to get more than 70 per cent as regular attenders is quite difficult.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: Paragraph 19 of Schedule 1 says:
“Subject to the following provisions of this Schedule, the MMO may regulate—
(a) its own procedure (including quorum), and(b) the procedure of any of its committees or sub-committees (including quorum)”.The intention is that it would be for the MMO to decide on this quorum. I am sure that we can rely on the good judgment of those appointed to come to a sensible conclusion on that.
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Baroness Byford: From what the Minister has said, there is no specific quorum at all. It could ultimately be just one or two people, which is surely not desirable.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I am hesitant to start micro-managing the affairs of a board that is not yet established. It is perfectly appropriate for the body itself to decide its quorum. The Bill allows for that. I would have thought that we could rely upon the judgment of those appointed to come to a sensible view.
Lord Tyler: I do not think that any of us were asking the Minister to micro-manage. However, he might indicate what public body of a similar status could be as small as six—five plus the chair—and in what circumstances the Minister would expect a quorum to be, perhaps, as small as two. Those of us who have served on such bodies have never experienced anything of that size, and have certainly always found it difficult to maintain a quorum when the board is quite a bit bigger than that.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I shall resist answering that question. It is sensible for the board to come to a view on what the quorum should be. It is not for me to say in Parliament how many members I think would constitute an appropriate quorum. It is perfectly appropriate for us to expect the MMO to come to a reasonable view on that matter.
We have looked at the number of members on other boards. We think that the number specified in the Bill is about right, but we have allowed for discretion should the board’s size or remit change in the future. If the organisation were given more functions, which the Bill allows the Secretary of State to do, paragraph 6 of Schedule 1 allows the Secretary of State to vary the number of members in paragraph 3(1) by order. I resist the noble Lord’s amendment to remove that discretionary power. Whatever figure is decided on by Parliament, it is sensible, subject to parliamentary processes for bringing an order before Parliament, to have a discretionary power to vary the number according to circumstances that might arise.
Baroness Hamwee: Will the Minister share with noble Lords the Government’s thinking on the maximum number or ceiling? It will be hard to consider an order to vary the ceiling without knowing the starting point for it. As I said, to impose such a low figure at the very start could unnecessarily hamper the effectiveness of the organisation. I do not think that the Minister has shared with us anything more than that the Government have thought about it and this is the conclusion they have come to.
5.45 pm
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: That is a very reasonable line to adopt on many matters. It is expected that when the MMO is up and running it will have a board of nine people comprising a chair and eight ordinary members. We do not think that is an unreasonable number to steer the organisation and do all the things that a governing body is expected to do. My experience of public bodies is that, provided you have a reasonable
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Amendments 8 and 9 relate to the experience of board members. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said in his introductory remarks, paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 ensures that in appointing members to the MMO board, including its chair, the Secretary of State should have two considerations of equal importance in mind. The first is the relevance of the potential candidate’s expertise and experience to the MMO’s activities. To assist the MMO in fulfilling its objective, that relevant expertise and experience should as far as possible be drawn from one or more of the pillars of sustainable development; in other words, board members should have experience of environmental, economic and/or social issues. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, read out some of the categories that might come within those broad pillars. The second consideration is the need to ensure a proper balance of skills and experience so the board functions effectively and adds value to the organisation as a whole. The noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, expressed that very well. Of course, that experience is important, as is regional balance, but in the end the key consideration is the calibre of the people to be appointed and the judgment they exercise. As we heard in our first two or three hours of debate, this job will be a very challenging one which calls for people of the highest calibre to be appointed. That must be a prime consideration, albeit we need to ensure that those high calibre members come from a variety of specified backgrounds to ensure that the board works as effectively as possible.
I listened with great interest to the argument that the Bill should specify that someone with experience in marine science or marine conservation be appointed to the board. I understand why noble Lords might support that. However, I have reservations about specifying a particular expertise which should be given priority over all other experience. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, some of the potential technical difficulties of drafting an amendment capable of being put into practice. Of course, I fully accept that this organisation needs to have people with very good scientific knowledge and background. I refer noble Lords to the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, in which he referred to the recommendation that a scientific advisory board should be established to advise the MMO board. That might well be the most appropriate way to ensure that the board has the scientific expertise that is required given that such a board—certainly the Government are strongly of the view that such a board should be established—would consist of representatives of major government and independent scientific bodies. There is no doubt whatever of the need for the organisation to have scientific expertise available to it.
We then come to the interesting question of remuneration and allowances and, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said, to the first “may/shall” debate on the Bill. I believe that the wording is unexceptional. The Bill permits the organisation to pay such remuneration and allowances as the Secretary of State may determine. The noble Lord invited me to say what rates the
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This has been a very interesting debate. I shall reflect on the points that noble Lords have raised. It is absolutely right that we should ensure that this new organisation has a board of the highest calibre but I am reluctant to expand the board’s number or to guarantee that a particular expertise or person from a particular specialist background will be on it. However, I understand the points noble Lords have made about the importance of scientific expertise being available to the board and of ensuring that, whatever background members of the board come from, the key thing is the personal qualities they bring to board considerations.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: Will the Minister reply to my question about the different regions? Obviously, they are vastly different. I was not by any means saying that every region should have a representative, but I am sure that the Government must have considered this and had some thoughts about it. Will the Minister share them?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I thought that I did respond to that briefly at the beginning. Our prime duty must be to ensure that we get people of the highest calibre. That must be the first consideration. I cannot give a guarantee from the Dispatch Box that there will be a scientifically regional balance on the board. Of course, one would hope that the board members will come from a variety of backgrounds and that there will be a reasonable geographic spread, but I cannot give any commitment on that basis, because the calibre of the people appointed must come first.
Lord Greaves: I thank everyone who has taken part in the debate. I was a bit worried about plunging—if that is the word on a marine Bill—into the nitty-gritty of Committee, but the debate around the Chamber has shown that these are important issues. There is one issue that we need to knock on the head straight away. My noble friend Lord Tyler said that the most beautiful coasts in Britain were in Cornwall in his former constituency. I say to my noble friend that he ought to get up north a bit more, and then keep going, because by far and away the most beautiful coasts are in Scotland, as I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, will agree. The further north you go, the better it gets.
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There has been quite a lot of consensus around the Committee putting pressure on the Minister on two issues. I shall come back to that when I comment on what he said. I particularly thank the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, for taking our amendment seriously after the knock-about on our first group of amendments, which got a different reaction from the Conservative Front Bench. We are back into proper Committee now, and that is fine.
On representation of interests, which was originally raised by the noble Lord, Lord Eden, I do not think that any of us is suggesting in these amendments that there should be direct representation of interests on the board of the Marine Management Organisation. Various contributors, such as the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and my noble friend Lady Hamwee, talked about the presence of a range of expertise and experience and a range of perspectives. These are different from direct representation; you do not have to be representing an organisation to know a lot about it and to have experience of it. That is the issue that causes us concern; that a board of only six members, including the chair, would not be enough.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I reiterate that it is possible that from time to time if members resign, the board might go down to six, but in general the intention is that it should be a board of nine; eight ordinary members and the chair.
Lord Greaves: I am very grateful to the Minister for repeating that, because that was a particular thing that he said that I picked up and want to come back to in a minute. I thank the Minister for treating the amendments with great care and for the detailed answers that he has given.
We would expect the quorum to be a third, which is normal in most public bodies. Again, that is a concern if the body is too small, but I accept what the Minister said, that the organisation will decide for itself. As for the expectation that there will be nine members, including the chair, that is a valuable statement from the Minister, because to some extent it sets aside some of the concerns. I say to the Government—the Minister said that he would reflect on this—that if it is their intention that it should be nine, it would be sensible, if they are putting a range into the Bill, for their expectation to be at the centre of that range.
Who knows what circumstances might occur where it would be valuable to appoint an extra person, or to reduce the size, if the size was at the bottom of the range? There does not seem to be much sense in saying that the range would be five to eight, or six to nine including the chair, and then saying that the expectation is that the body would be at the top of that range from the very beginning. The sensible thing to do would be to put a range in the Bill in which what the Government want to do is at the middle of the range. Perhaps we can have some discussions and think about that. That seems to be the common sense thing to do; to allow flexibility without having to go through the whole rigmarole of the Government coming back with an order and having to present it to Parliament and so on.
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The assurances by the Minister on Amendment 9 about scientific and conservation expertise are valuable. We will come back to this issue as the Bill goes through Committee, and I think that the Minister will be pressed to give these kinds of assurances on several more occasions. It may be that we will want to find a form of wording that is appropriate to legislation, which I am sure could be found for a later stage. We will consider that and reflect on it.
On the remuneration question, the Bill says that the MMO “may” pay and the Secretary of State “may” decide what it will be. The Minister has made it absolutely clear that the MMO is going to pay its members and that the Secretary of State will decide what the remuneration is, so I do not understand why the Bill does not say what is actually going to happen. Perhaps expecting legislation to say what is going to happen is an idealistic point of view.
The Minister will do a bit of reflection, we will do some reflection, and Members of the Committee will do some reflection on these issues, some of which may come back for further debate on Report. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 6.
7: Schedule 1, page 212, line 28, at end insert—
“Nomination by other bodiesThe Committee on Climate Change or the Infrastructure Planning Commission may nominate a member for considertion by the Secretary of State under sub-paragaph 3(1) above.”
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I shall speak also to Amendments 19 and 20. I hope that the amendments reinforce many of the arguments made in Committee this afternoon.
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