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I return again to the nature and construction of the board. This may have some bearing on the way in which we return to our previous debate at a later stage. I apologise for referring to past legislation, but we frequently commented on the interlocking legislation from the previous Session; the Climate Change Act, the Energy Act and the Planning Act, which are now being followed by this Bill. In particular, the Committee on Climate Change and the Infrastructure Planning Commission will have responsibilities that interact with each other and with this organisation.
The three amendments relate to the working relationship between three organisations that are undoubtedly going to have a great deal of impact on each other’s areas and duties. There are several later groups of amendments that we will come to that deal with similar issues, especially between the IPC and the MMO. I will save my remarks about some of the more obvious overlaps between these organisations until that time. However, I am sure that noble Lords agree that it will be critical for these three organisations at the very least to work well together. My amendments suggest a system of mutual nomination for the membership of the boards that would allow the relevant experience and expertise to be applied across the board.
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I agreed with everything that the noble Lord said, except on the terms of his amendment. He is absolutely right that in taking forward the Bill we will frequently refer to legislation passed in the previous Session, the Energy Act, the Planning Act and the Climate Change Act. That is right because they do, indeed, come together in many areas. The noble Lord is also right to refer to the importance of the Infrastructure Planning Commission and the Committee on Climate Change. They will have a crucial role to play in relation to major infrastructure planning decisions and the advice to the Government on climate change. We have already seen, under the expert chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Turner, just how far-reaching, important and significant the advice of the Committee on Climate Change has been. Equally, as the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said, we will discuss the relationship between the IPC and the Marine Management Organisation regarding the giving of planning consents in relation to offshore renewables. There is no question that there needs to be a consistency of approach and for those organisations to be seen to work together.
However, I have considerable doubts about whether that is best achieved through nomination rights for consideration for appointment—and I take the amendment to refer to nomination, rather than automatic appointment. Apart from the issue of whether noble Lords accept the numbers of members of the board specified in the Bill, should we agree to additional nomination rights? I would have thought that given the importance of the IPC and the CCC, it would be very difficult to turn down those nominations for board membership. It would certainly crowd out the board in terms of other appointments.
I also wonder whether, as we debated in the previous group of amendments, if a person was nominated either by the IPC of the CCC, and then appointed, there would be a danger that they would be seen as the representative of the Committee on Climate Change or the Infrastructure Planning Commission. That would detract from the corporate role that we envisage the MMO board having to play, whereby, although people might come from different backgrounds, when they sit around a table, their job is to come together as a corporate organisation, not to represent special interests.
I have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Lord’s intention to ensure that there is co-ordination between the IPC, the MMO and the Committee on Climate Change and that they work together. However, I doubt that the amendment is the way to do it.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: I am increasingly anxious that the letter that the Minister promised about interaction between the devolved Administrations in relation to the Bill should come to us quickly. For example, the Infrastructure Planning Commission does not relate to Scotland at all. The Scottish Parliament would have nothing to do with the Planning Bill. It is difficult to envisage how this will work. When we discussed the membership of the organisation, the Minister kept saying that we did not want regional representation; but, if we do not look out, one can picture a situation in Scotland whereby something is turned down by
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Lord Oxburgh: I am very much in sympathy with the amendment, but, on this occasion, the Minister is right, because, for the general reasons we discussed earlier, the balance of the organisation will be important. It is hard to put together a football team and fill all the appropriate positions if other bodies effectively pre-empt some of them. I have experience of other bodies that were put together in that way; if, as the amendment suggests, some way could be found for those bodies to feed in suggestions, that would be fine, but ultimately, because one is putting together a coherent group with a range of expertise, it would not make sense for individuals effectively to be nominated by external bodies who would do so in ignorance of the other nominations that had been made.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I agree very much with what has just been said. There is a conflict of interest about the nominations that would accrue for the MMO board. I can see that the “guardian of the environment” function of the MMO would be weakened if it was compromised by nominations from the IPC and the climate change body. I also sympathise with what the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, said about devolved matters. I have a couple of amendments that we may reach this evening that may cover some of that issue.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, I will ensure that the note is sent out within the next two days.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I thank the Minister for that, because it will be useful. I hope that the Chamber will forgive me for tabling these amendments and finding that they have been widely spoken against. However, with some justification, it is correct to focus the Chamber’s attention on the interaction between these three bodies, which will exist for a common purpose and with similar objectives. I shall seek leave to withdraw the amendment, but I suggest that the process of appointing the skeleton board may well involve consultation with the Committee on Climate Change and the Infrastructure Planning Commission. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
12: Schedule 1, page 215, line 5, at end insert—
“( ) In appointing other employees, the MMO must ensure the employment of sufficient persons with scientific capability or expertise for the exercise of its functions.”
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Lord Kingsland: This group of amendments takes us back to our earlier debate about the relationship of science to the organisation. I should start by declaring an interest: for the past seven years, I have been chairman of the board of trustees of the Plymouth Marine Laboratory. Until 2002, it was a Government-owned institution. I hasten to add that I am not a marine scientist, so I do not need to debate with the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, about whether I would have, if I were a marine scientist, a right to exist or not. Indeed, the fact that I am not a marine scientist is the main, perhaps the only, reason why I was appointed to the post in the first place.
Although this group of amendments starts with Amendment 12, I want to begin with Amendment 28, which relates to the general objectives clause, Clause 2. To put the amendment in perspective, it is worth reading the clause to the Committee. I am concerned only with subsection (1), which states:
“It is the duty of the MMO to secure that the MMO functions are so exercised that the carrying on of activities by persons in the MMO’s area is managed, regulated or controlled—
(a) in a manner which is consistent and co-ordinated ... and
(b) with the objective of making a contribution to the achievement of sustainable development ...
- Any reference in this Act to the MMO’s ‘general objective’ is a reference to the duty imposed on the MMO by this subsection”.
Amendment 28 seeks to add a further paragraph—paragraph (c)—which reads:
In other words, it would lay a duty on the shoulders of the MMO,
- “to secure that the MMO functions are so exercised that the carrying on of activities by persons in the MMO’s area is managed, regulated or controlled ... with regard to the best available scientific evidence”.
I believe that this amendment flows ineluctably from the fundamental activity in which the MMO is to be engaged—that is, assessing the impact of human activities on a particular sector of the waters around our country. Therefore, the starting point in any decision of the MMO is: what is the state of the biodiversity of that particular section of water? It must ask: what is going on on the surface, what is going on in the water column and what is going on on the seabed? Until it knows the answers to those questions, it cannot go on to make an assessment about the desirability or otherwise of particular economic or other activities taking place there. Therefore, any decision by the MMO will be based on science, and if it does not establish with the best science available at the time the most likely situation, it will be incapable of fulfilling any of its other tasks.
The other two amendments in this group flow from that. Both concern the way in which the MMO would acquire the appropriate scientific information. Amendment 12 deals with the desirability of the MMO having a sufficient number of skilled scientists with the capability or expertise to exercise the judgments to which I have just referred. The word used in the amendment is “must”, not “may”. A related obligation is set out in Amendment 41, which concerns the other means by which the MMO might acquire the appropriate scientific information. It reads:
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“In seeking to secure the duty mentioned in subsection (1)(c), the MMO must consult with any relevant government or independent scientific bodies”.
Both those amendments address what I consider to be the weaknesses of Clause 23, which is entitled “Research”. I apologise for again testing the Committee’s patience by quoting the Bill. Subsection (1) states:
“The MMO may (whether alone or with other bodies or persons)—
(a) undertake research into any matter relating to its functions or its general objective, or
(b) commission or support (by financial means or otherwise) research into any such matter”.
I do not need to read out subsection (2) because it is not germane to the point that I am trying to make. How can the MMO undertake research into any matter relating to its functions if it does not have the appropriate expertise among its employees? Equally, if it has certain expertise but not the particular expertise relevant to the decision that it has to take, surely it must—not may—go outside to get the appropriate scientific information.
The noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, expressed doubts about the existence of marine science and I can understand why he did so. Only a tiny proportion of the oceans around our country have been subject to traditional marine scientific analysis. Most people have to rely on predictions rather general scientific knowledge. We now have the capacity, through satellites, to examine quite intimately and very quickly what is happening on surface waters. We also have the ability, through geophysical information, to draw from the contours of the base of the continental shelf certain conclusions about the kind of biodiversity that exists there. As many noble Lords know, there are also experts called marine modellers who are tasked with making these predictions. This is as much a form of forecasting as it is traditional scientific analysis; and for the first 10 years of the MMO’s life decisions about the impact of human activities on biodiversity in a particular area will depend heavily on assembling what we know and then forecasting in the way that I have described.
That leads me to my final point, which is not directly affected by these amendments. If the MMO is to be increasingly effective, a very powerful priority will have to be to assemble and spread as widely as possible data on what is going on in the sea, together with marine monitoring. That is dealt with in later clauses and I do not intend to go into it now, but it is a related issue. I beg to move.
6.15 pm
Lord Eden of Winton: I support what my noble friend has said. It is extremely important that relevant scientific evidence is available to the MMO, but to my mind the most important point is that the evidence should be “objective”. One problem that has already been mentioned in relation to the forthcoming activities of the MMO is that they will be arraigned by a vast conflict of interests. All sorts of bodies will be representing their views and opinions on what is or is not taking place in the ocean around our shores. Therefore, as my noble friend said, the MMO will have to base its decision on an independent judgment, and the evidence, scientifically based, should be as objective as is possible to find.
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Happily, today there are in existence distinguished people who have almost made it their lifetime’s work to study and analyse what is taking place in the sea around us. Evidence of the success that can be achieved by the establishment of marine reserve areas is already available to us in considerable abundance. One of the most notable is on the northern coast of America—California, in particular—where a vast area that has been set aside has yielded extraordinary results.
While we consider the situation in the sea at present we are naturally confronted by the evidence of the hideous destruction of marine animal life and the serious risk at which many species, some of which are well known to us, such as skate, the leatherback turtle, sturgeon and others, face. That is known. The Bill will establish an organisation that will bring about action based on that knowledge, and it is that knowledge that will have to be made available to the board of the MMO. I hope that the Minister can assure us that it will listen not only to representations from special interests groups but will consider objective analysis presented by scientific expertise.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I would like to be able to support the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in his Amendment 28, as his aspiration is correct, but the Minister will remember from the report of the Select Committee in the other place, Investigating the Oceans, that the funding and progress of research have been extremely limited. The amount of seabed that has been mapped and the amount of resource to speed up that mapping—I am talking just about vessels, but the noble Lord referred to satellites, and even satellite time costs—are such that I do not think that we can include such an amendment in the Bill. The MMO will simply be unable to look for that evidence for several years yet. I ask the Minister whether the mapping of the seabed will be speeded up before designations of the marine conservation zones, for example. If not, it will be difficult for those zones to be designated at all. This area is one of my greatest concerns about the Bill. We have good aspirations but we simply do not know much about what is on the seabed or in the water column over the vast areas that we are talking about.
Baroness Hamwee: Will the Minister comment on the phrase “consistent and co-ordinated” in Clause 2, to which the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, referred? It is essential that work should be co-ordinated both as a snapshot and over time, but “consistent” could raise issues, which I hope the Minister can dispose of. The definition is not set out as exclusive, but as research continues and knowledge expands, and perhaps as judgments and assessments develop, decisions may not be consistent with decisions taken five or 10 years previously—indeed, one would not want them to be. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that. I am not seeking to unravel the general thrust but would like a common-sense assurance.
Lord Geddes: I warmly endorse my noble friend’s amendment on two grounds. I suspect—although I hope that I am wrong—that the Minister will say
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I have some outdated experience, gathered when I had the enormous privilege some 35 years ago of working in a somewhat junior capacity in an association chaired by the redoubtable Commandeur Jacques-Yves Cousteau. He taught me in a very short time more about the potential of the marine environment than anybody could. I am not a marine scientist—I am not even a scientist—but even at that age he made a huge impression on me, none of which has left me. I urge the Minister, even if he cannot accept the specific words of my noble friend’s amendment, to take the intent extremely seriously. I repeat that the burden on the MMO will be very great. If we do not get it right at this stage, there will be problems in the future.
Lord Oxburgh: I add my support to the amendment. Whether the wording is right or not remains to be seen, but the important element is that this organisation will need a substantial science base, partly because the consequences of most of the activities that it seeks to regulate are not seen on the surface. Indirect geophysical and surveying techniques are needed to see what is going on. There has to be a substantial science base within the organisation, which the amendment would ensure. The other general point is that in the exploitation of the marine environment there are some commercial interests and lobbies. I hope that it is not thought in any sense that I am against that, but the consequences of commercial activity have to be understood. If there are good arguments against them, or indeed for them, they have to be properly marshalled from a technical point of view. For that reason it is extremely important that the scientific expertise that is available to the organisation matches the commercial pressures to which it will undoubtedly be subjected.
Lord Greenway: On the question of mapping raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, in chairing the Joint Committee I had the advantage of being present all the time. She may not have been there when one of our expert advisers showed us that, as I understood it, the basic knowledge of the seabed is much more widespread than any of us thought at the time. We are lacking the detailed work that requires special techniques. That is very expensive, as we need ships with side scan sonar and all the rest. However, basically we have a good idea what happens on the seabed, although we are lacking the detail, which will take time to get.
The Earl of Selborne: I follow that contribution also as a member of the Joint Committee, although not quite as good at attending as our chair, who led by example. The Select Committee in the other place drew attention to the parlous state of marine science in this country, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Miller,
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Earl Cathcart:We, of course, agree with the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Kingsland, which follow on from Amendment 9. That amendment was slightly shot down by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, who said that it was not nearly strong enough and that the MMO must have proper scientific advice available to it to deal with all the technicalities. The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, said on Amendment 9 that the Joint Committee recommended a scientific advisory panel. With these amendments, my noble friend Lord Kingsland has amplified the theme and I think that they have support from all round the Committee. I hope that the Minister will accept them but, if he cannot, perhaps he will take them away and see whether he can draw up something in better form and come back to the Committee with it.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I am sure that I did not attend the Joint Committee as perfectly as the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, but I was there when Defra showed a film modelling how it is filming the seabed and I followed that up with various people. I retain serious concerns about the fact that what is now mapped is small. I draw the Committee’s attention to paragraph 66 of the Joint Committee’s report, which refers to the difficulty in sharing data because of the way in which, even when the data are held by government agencies, costs are recharged and so on. That paragraph spells out the difficulties that the MMO may face unless the Government resolve the issue of scientific data being freely available to it.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: This has been an interesting debate. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has laid these amendments to ensure that the MMO operates on the basis of the best available scientific evidence and that, in carrying out its business to fulfil its part of its duty, it consults any relevant government or independent scientific bodies.
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