| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
I was asked about the tax credit position. Appeals were heard by the Social Security and Child Support Appeals Tribunal, which was transferred on 3 November to the Social Entitlement Chamber of the first-tier tribunals. We intend in due course to move tax credits appeals into the tax chamber. We think that is appropriate because tax credit issues relate more to tax than to financial assistance through the benefit system. However, we will not transfer tax credits appeals to the tax chamber until the new chamber and processes have
12 Jan 2009 : Column 1084
I was asked by both noble Baronesses about the draft rules. They will be laid before the House as a statutory instrument in due course. A draft should be available by the end of January or the beginning of February. The rules are currently being finalised by the independent Tribunal Procedure Committee, on which, the House may be gratified to be reminded, the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, sits, if not plays an even more prominent part. Those rules will be laid by negative resolution. There can be a debate on them if that is wanted. They have been subjected to full stakeholder processes and have been well trialled and discussed.
The noble Baroness raised the issue of expense. The new tribunal system is expected to be less expensive to run in the long term. No longer will the tribunal service be required to pay the fees of the clerks, who did an excellent job. The noble Baroness is right; the cost of setting up the new system has been estimated at £1.25 million. We think a consistent set of rules and procedures should produce savings for tribunal users in terms of streamlined procedures and proportionate decision-making.
There is a potential slight increase in administrative burdens arising from this for current users of the general commissioners, who tend to be small businesses and individuals. We believe that the potential increased burden is offset by a number of benefits. For ex-general commissioner cases, the appeal will initially be to HMRC. However, as I have said, the taxpayer may appeal to the tribunal at any time and virtually simultaneously if they wish. The system is familiar to most users and ensures the settlement process is activated for the bulk of cases where settlement is desired without recourse to the tribunal.
I emphasise that the tribunal service is working closely with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to ensure that guidance is clear and that taxpayers understand where they are at each stage of the system.
I have done my best to answer the valid questions asked by both noble Baronesses from the Front Benches. I return to the fact that they both support the new order. I think that it carries broad support, both in this House and in another place. The important thing is that it is up and running from 1 April and that it is seen to be a success. I have no doubt that we will debate these matters again.
Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]
Information about this Bill
Copy of the Bill as Debated
Explanatory Notes
Today's Amendments
Delegated Powers Committee 1st Report
Committee (1st Day) (Continued)
8.22 pm
16: Schedule 1, page 217, line 14, at end insert—
12 Jan 2009 : Column 1085
“(3A) The MMO shall, no later than seven days after sending the report to the Secretary of State in pursuance of sub-paragraph (2), send a copy of the report to the Scottish Ministers, who shall lay a copy of the report before the Scottish Parliament no earlier than a copy is laid before each House of Parliament.”
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: In the absence of my noble friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness, I move the amendment and also speak to Amendment 17. Both amendments address devolution and the annual report. Amendment 16 refers to the report as it affects Scotland and Amendment 17 as it affects Wales. They are similarly worded.
The amendments address the annual report and its consideration by the devolved Administrations of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly. I hope that the Minister will address this as a piece of housekeeping rather than as something extremely controversial. The Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly already have marine powers vested in them from legislation that went through 10 years ago. It is important that the MMO, as it operates in England, co-operates closely with the devolved Administrations, which will hold similar functions.
We feel that it is extremely important that, as it says in Amendment 16,
“The MMO shall, no later than seven days after sending the report to the Secretary of State in pursuance of sub-paragraph (2), send a copy of the report to the Scottish Ministers, who shall lay a copy of the report before the Scottish Parliament no earlier than a copy is laid before each House of Parliament”.
Similarly, Amendment 17 states:
“The MMO shall, no later than seven days after sending the report to the Secretary of State in pursuance of sub-paragraph (2) send a copy of the report to the Welsh Ministers, who shall lay a copy of the report before the National Assembly for Wales no earlier than a copy is laid before each House of Parliament”.
It is important that close co-operation occurs between the MMO and the devolved Administrations of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. There is every incentive for this to occur. The functions of the MMO are similar as regards the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. We feel strongly that such co-operation would ensure that the functions of the MMO are carried out across the United Kingdom to the satisfaction of all concerned. Therefore, it is very much in the interests of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly that the information in the annual report is laid before them to keep them fully informed of the overall picture and to enable any matters which cause concern to be addressed immediately. I beg to move.
The Duke of Montrose: The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, promotes transparency between the various Executives of the United Kingdom. My noble friend Lady Carnegy has assiduously raised the various slightly difficult areas that occur in this regard and has properly drawn noble Lords’ attention to the fact that this whole area is being considered by the Calman commission. We shall be interested to hear what it has to say on the subject.
We were encouraged to hear the Minister say that his department will produce a full briefing. At 11.37 am today it kindly sent me a brief introduction to the
12 Jan 2009 : Column 1086
Scotland has for some time administered a number of the issues in UK territorial waters adjacent to Scotland. A great many of the powers we are discussing were devolved under the Scotland Act modification order 1999/1756, which covered many things including nuclear installations and forestry but particularly the Food and Environment Protection Act 1985.
Since then we had had interesting exchanges with various Ministers on renewable energy, designation of a renewable energy zone and the transfer of specific powers contained in Part 1 of the Electricity Act 1989. Perhaps the Minister can say whether the Government have identified any new powers that will be required to make the powers of Marine Scotland—if that is what it is called—adequate to be a parallel organisation to the Marine Management Organisation. It is of some interest that the Marine Management Organisation will cover electricity generation only up to 50 megawatts capacity, which will probably cover most of the renewable energy available at any site around this part of the United Kingdom. It seems that the Scottish Executive will be able to choose its own generating capacity figure. There is far more renewable energy generating capacity at some Scottish sites than in a lot of other areas.
On the amendment, ensuring that the Marine Management Organisation sends a copy of the report to the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales no earlier than a copy is laid before each House of Parliament will help to provide clarity, but it will also help to give the Scottish Executive the chance to see whether their proposals for marine management are keeping up with those in the rest of the United Kingdom. In that way, I support the amendment.
8.30 pm
Lord Greaves: Briefly, I support both amendments in the group, which were introduced by my noble friend Lord Livsey and spoken to eloquently by the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose. I think that it is going to be a typical pattern of Committee stage of the Bill that pretty well every bit of the Bill that we come to will have a cameo Scottish and Welsh debate as part of it. The devolution thread goes right through the Bill, and the way in which the devolution settlement is evolving and, to some extent, the way in which this Bill evolves it, cannot be avoided. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, will be able to be here for a lot of it, because she is obviously very interested and she will not let us forget it, even if we wanted to. It is absolutely crucial.
I want to do two things at this stage. First, I thank the Government for the changes that they have already made to the Bill from the draft Bill and from previous proposals to take account of this extremely complex situation—the situation in Scotland, Wales and England differs in different ways in almost every part of the Bill. Secondly, I very much look forward to the document, which I am told will be quite a meaty and, which
12 Jan 2009 : Column 1087
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, for introducing this group of amendments, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, for his comments, which were very helpful. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that it may be helpful if, in addition to sending out a paper this week, I arrange a meeting for all Peers, perhaps early next week, so that we can have a discussion outwith the Chamber and we can give as much information as possible. I recognise that this is a very complex area, which has moved on, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, suggested, since the draft Bill was published.
Perhaps I might come back to say a little more about the changes that have occurred, but first I shall deal with the amendments. The MMO is being set up to deliver functions on behalf of the UK Government but, in the main, it will deliver marine functions in the waters around England, because many of the functions across the Bill are delivered in their waters by the devolved Administrations. The MMO will deliver marine planning, marine licensing, fisheries management and nature conservation and enforcement throughout the waters off England.
In addition, it will enforce nature conservation provisions in the waters offshore of Wales out to the median line. But some of the functions may be matters relating to, perhaps, implementation of EU or international obligations, which would require the MMO to take a co-ordinating role on behalf of the UK Government. In such cases, we would expect the MMO to undertake consultation with whoever might be affected throughout the UK area and include such matters as was necessary in its report. Since the MMO will be acting in relation to England or the UK, it is entirely appropriate in all cases for it to report to this House and the other place.
The MMO has no functions within the devolved competence of Scottish or Welsh Ministers, and it is not appropriate for the activities that it carries out on behalf of the UK Government to be subject to scrutiny by the Scottish Parliament or the National Assembly for Wales. The MMO may, by arrangement, carry out functions on behalf of the Northern Ireland Executive or the Welsh Assembly Government at their request and with our consent, but Scottish Ministers will have their own delivery body in Marine Scotland. I do not imagine that noble Lords would expect that body to present its annual report to this House or the other place. The Welsh Assembly Government will also have their arrangements for accountability for delivery, which I would not expect to be reported to this House.
However, I recognise that this will take place within the overall context, and I fully accept the comments of all noble Lords on the need for close co-operation
12 Jan 2009 : Column 1088
Work has been done since the draft Bill—
The Duke of Montrose: I referred in my speech at Second Reading to that joint ministerial meeting. One can well see that at that meeting it was agreed that all devolved matters could be left to Scotland to deal with. One of the puzzles is whether the organisation that we are setting up will have to deal with non-devolved matters. At what point was it decided that those should be brought within the powers of the Scottish Executive? Given what the Minister said earlier about having a role in the European and international spheres, does that mean that the Marine Management Organisation will become the main negotiating body for the common fisheries policy?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: No, I do not think that it means that at all, but we are able to give the MMO certain functions that fall to the Secretary of State, who can ask it to take on those responsibilities.
I said at Second Reading that this is not a departure from the devolution settlement and that the arrangements to be put in place are entirely consistent with the devolution settlement. It is just that the discussions and the agreement between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations have been very fruitful and provide confidence that there will be co-operation between all authorities to ensure that there is appropriate integration. However, it is not a departure from the devolution settlement.
Overall, this group of amendments has been very helpful. I will ensure that we have further opportunities to discuss the details of the settlement but I hope that the noble Lord will agree that it is not appropriate for him to push these amendments. The MMO will be dealing with either English or UK matters, and therefore it is appropriate that its annual report should be made just to this House and the other place.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: The Minister’s answers were very helpful except for his last sentence, which negatived the upshot of my amendments. I am very pleased that the full briefing will become available and I am sure that we will be able to iron out one or two things in our discussions. However, it seems to me that there is a great deal of agreement and that one should not make waves if some details need to be resolved. As a result of the Government of Wales Act 1998, for the past 10 years the Assembly has had responsibility for fisheries, inshore matters and all kinds of things under
12 Jan 2009 : Column 1089
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): Amendment 18 has already been spoken to and not moved.
Schedule 2 : Minor and consequential amendments relating to the MMO
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: With regard to Amendment 20, for the record I should point out that there is an error in the Marshalled List. The amendment refers to page 219, line 7. Having said that, I assume that the amendment will not be moved.
21: Clause 2, page 2, line 2, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
“(1) The MMO’s general objective is the promotion of sustainable development of the marine environment.
(1A) It is the duty of the MMO to secure that the general objective is so exercised that the carrying on of activities by persons in the MMO’s area is managed, regulated or controlled in a manner which is consistent and co-ordinated (see subsection (2)).”
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I believe that my amendments in this group do much the same as those tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. There is a major point of difference between the Government and the Opposition on this issue, and it is perhaps unfortunate that we are dealing with it at this time of night because I know that a number of noble Lords are interested in the outcome of this debate. Both I and, it appears, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, feel that the current drafting, in which the MMO is tasked with,
is inadequate. Making a contribution is not enough. My Amendment 21 would seek to make the promotion of sustainable development the general and overriding duty of the MMO. We and many stakeholders in this area feel that there needs to be a clear and unambiguous statement that the management of the marine environment should be towards that end.
This Bill was introduced in your Lordships’ House with the claim that it heralds the start of genuine progress in the management of our seas. That is good
12 Jan 2009 : Column 1090
8.45 pm
I hope that I have made clear our perception of the MMO’s role. Our amendments would put our views into the Bill to ensure that the MMO is empowered and acts with authority across its responsibilities. My Amendment 47, to which I am also speaking in this group, would leave the duty of consistency and co-ordination untouched. Ensuring that the management of the seas is consistent and co-ordinated is of great importance. The marine environment is an interlinked ecosystem, as the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, makes clear. Good policies in one area could be made useless by a lack of co-ordination with another area. Consistency will also reduce the cost and bureaucratic delays currently weighing on those who seek to apply for various licences. With a clear and universal system across the MMO’s area, the greater efficiency will also benefit the marine environment.
Finally, my third amendment in this group suggests a definition for “sustainable development”, as does that of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. My amendment was suggested by the British Wind Energy Association and the noble Lord’s amendment by an alternative stakeholder. I do not suggest that Amendment 181 is better than Amendment 180. Indeed, there are great merits in the noble Lord’s alternative. By tabling my amendment I was hoping to highlight the continuing debate over just what sustainable development means. Without a proper understanding of what the Government want to achieve, it will be no surprise to find that many organisations expected to work towards its achievement will be working at cross purposes with each other.
I do not agree with giving the natural environment a statutory priority, as suggested in the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Young. Our later amendments show that we believe that the MMO will have to represent a very broad range of interests of which the natural environment is of course an important one; but to give it priority would turn the MMO into yet another conservation body rather than the overarching management body that we are seeking to establish.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |