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On our first day in Committee the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made it clear that we should not worry because, in addition to the more vague objectives in the Bill, the Marine Management Organisation would have to operate within the new marine policy statement and the guidance given by the Secretary of State. We believe that that is not enough. The Joint Committee report states that by failing to define “sustainable development” the Bill,

“leaves undefined a core ethos, by which it proposes that the marine environment be managed”,

and that this “creates uncertainty”. This group of amendments therefore seeks to define the MMO’s functions more clearly and precisely. Amendment 32 is similar to mine but I prefer my drafting as it provides a wider range of more specific duties to which the MMO must have regard.

We on these Benches envisage the MMO as the organisation to resolve the inevitable conflicts between groups with different concerns, not as one more lobby group itself. As Amendment 33 makes clear, the MMO will have a huge variety of concerns, functions and objectives. The list, of course, is not exhaustive, and even the desirability of some of the items listed is open to debate. But the list still indicates and serves to show the balance that the MMO must strike in its activities.

However, all the items are relevant to sustainable development, and many are specifically mentioned in the Bill. Some—such as paragraphs (b) and (g)—focus on the conservation element. Other criteria make it clear that our marine environment is a dynamic resource that is capable of providing food, energy and recreation. Others highlight promises that the Government have made and targets which they themselves have set. All the criteria are important; the question of which is the most important is impossible to answer.

The MMO must be capable of making decisions about the marine environment despite these conflicting concerns. It would be counterproductive for these decisions to be second-guessed and continually challenged by the more narrowly focused lobby groups and stakeholders involved. I should be interested to hear the Minister’s views on this and to hear a fuller explanation of how the MMO will be expected to weigh the different interests in which it will be engaged.

Baroness Young of Old Scone: I rise to promote Amendment 179, to which I have gladly added my name. At the moment, this issue feels a bit like a circus act where you have two horses, with a foot on each, but the horses are diverging rather rapidly. We are in the middle of the debate about the general objective of the Marine Management Organisation. We debated it to some extent at the previous Committee sitting and we are debating it now, and I hope that we can persuade the Minister that there is sufficient unrest for there to need to be a radical review of the general purpose before Report.

There is a range of views. At one end is the even-handed view that all the purposes listed in Amendments 32 and 33 need to be weighed up by the MMO in reaching

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a decision, and at the other end is my view—one that I think is backed up by many of the conservation NGOs which have lobbied for this Bill over the past 20 years—that, although the Marine Management Organisation needs to be even-handed in looking at all the competing pressures around the marine area, if push comes to shove and an important environmental resource would be diminished or destroyed by other pressures, the marine environment must ultimately be the tie-breaker.

With that in mind, having promoted the Sandford principle during our previous day in Committee, I put my name to the definition of the natural environment in Amendment 179. It clarifies what I consider to be an extremely important and basic objective of the Marine Management Organisation. We should press the Minister to take note of the very real unrest that I think exists on all sides of the Committee about the flabby nature of the current objective as stated in the Bill and to come back with something which, although it may not go as far as I want, certainly goes further than the Bill does in its current flabby way.

The Duke of Montrose: Can the noble Baroness give the Committee the nuts and bolts of the Sandford principle? At one point, I heard that it was that nothing should take place within a national park if it could be done elsewhere.

Baroness Young of Old Scone: The noble Duke has caught me on the hop, as I do not have the piece of paper describing the Sandford principle. However, it is a long way from the view that there should be “no development here”, about which he is so apprehensive. In fact, it is a tie-breaker principle that says that the national parks have a series of objectives—I think that there are three or four—the first of which is nature conservation and landscape protection. The others relate to access, recreation, education and economic development. It says that the aim of the national park system should be to deliver all those objectives but, if push comes to shove and at the end of the day there is a landscape or natural environment issue that is not a run-of-the-mill resource but an important national resource, that should take precedence if there is no way of finding a solution that combines all the objectives. Therefore, it really is a principle of last resort and not a “don’t come here” proposition, which we do not want to see in the marine environment. The marine environment is incredibly important for a whole variety of social, environmental and economic purposes, and we want to see the Marine Management Organisation focus on those in such a way that they are all delivered. However, we have to give it a bit of help by saying that, if it gets absolutely stuck and cannot find a way of doing all of them, ultimately one must have pre-eminence. Alas, the noble Duke has given the Minister adequate and valuable time to stop being outraged at the word “flabby”—I was hoping that he might explode on that.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: There is quite a lot to commend the approach in Amendment 33 in that, if you are a member of this body, to which I am increasingly sympathetic because of what it will have to do, and you are trying to reconcile the countless interests, it

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will be quite helpful if the Bill says what you must have regard to. There is a problem in reconciling competing interests, many of which are professional, involving money and so on, in collaboration with devolved Administrations, some of whom are quite happy to make it a little difficult to do so. So it would be quite good to have a list, such as that in Amendment 33. I see the merits of the approach in Amendment 32, as to what one must have regard to. It would be a very good lesson as one proceeded in this difficult operation. I am sympathetic towards it.

Lord Howarth of Newport: I want to speak to Amendment 33, although I think the other amendments in the group are very useful. All the amendments helpfully open up the discussion and enable the Minister to clarify what the Government envisage will happen under the new structure created by the Bill. First, I apologise to the House for not being able to speak at Second Reading. I would have wished to have covered some of the same ground so excellently covered by the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, in her remarks at Second Reading about heritage. Other noble Lords also spoke valuably on that topic—my noble friend Lord Davies of Coity and the noble Lord, Lord Tyler—and, of course, my noble friend the Minister said that he looked forward to debating the heritage issues which arise under the Bill.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My noble friend has reminded me that I did not respond to the question he raised in our first debate. He asked whether we would encourage the MMO to enter into fruitful discussions with English Heritage. The answer, of course, is yes. Would I want a statutory provision in the Bill? I suspect the answer to that is no.

Lord Howarth of Newport: That is interesting and characteristically helpful. It advances us a little because the Explanatory Notes make, as far as I can discern, no reference at all to heritage responsibilities for the Marine Management Organisation. My noble friend has given us a positive indication. I hope that he will think very carefully whether he needs to be more specific and more concrete in this legislation.

On too many occasions in the past, we have missed our legislative opportunity. My understanding is—this is buried in our heritage of legislation—that in the Protection of Wrecks Act 1973 the Government and Parliament simply forgot to equip English Heritage or its predecessor body with a competence in underwater archaeology, so we had to stumble along with a very inadequate provision. I tried to remedy that when I was a Minister in DCMS in bringing forward the Culture and Recreation Bill in 2000. It was based on much consultation, a complete consensus between various professional bodies and institutes which were interested and between the political parties. Sadly, as we ran up against the buffers of the 2001 election, the party opposite, the Conservative Opposition, was unwilling to give the legislation a fair wind.

I was cross, at the time, but I shall give them the benefit of the doubt; perhaps they were right to say that one should never wave through legislation and

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that it ought to be scrutinised. At all events, we were unable to get it on the statute book at that time. Happily, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, took up the cause in a Private Member’s Bill which became the National Heritage Act 2002 their put on the statute book some of the relevant provisions which had been in the Culture and Recreation Bill.

The upshot is that under existing legislation, English Heritage is empowered to use resources to protect and conserve submerged marine monuments. It makes recommendations about the designation of shipwreck sites and areas around them of historic and archaeological importance, and it administers licences granted by the Secretary of State. This is enormously important in relation to our national history identity and culture. It is part of our island story—if I may use the phrase—and of our history as a seafaring people. That still applies in the age of air travel, the Channel Tunnel, globalisation and digital communication no less than it did before. Our maritime heritage is massively important.

4.30 pm

Amendment 33 rightly requires the MMO to have regard, among other matters, to heritage and marine archaeology. When the Minister winds up, will he explain rather more fully how he envisages that the existing powers and duties of English Heritage will fit into the new structure that the Bill creates and whether those powers will be enhanced or extended? To give a small, practical instance, on which I think the noble Baroness touched in her Second Reading speech, English Heritage does not collect information or advise on historic environment issues in areas beyond the territorial limits of the UK territorial sea. However, the MMO would need to have such information. Who will be empowered, and who will have a duty, to collect that information? What can we expect in the MMO’s statement of public participation about the division of labour and the complementarity of the responsibilities of, for instance, English Heritage and the MMO? My noble friend observed that sensible people and sensible organisations work together willingly enough, and that is true, but sometimes it is not very easy for them. It depends on the terms of reference set for them by legislation and by their department’s policy, and on whether they have the budgets to carry out the work. Can my noble friend assure us that Defra and DCMS are truly shoulder to shoulder in relation to underwater archaeology and the historic maritime heritage and will operate their policies coherently?

Among the major functions of the MMO will be the planning function. That will take place within the context of a marine policy statement. We understand that the marine policy statement will be a statement of policy for the Government as a whole. But can my noble friend give me the reassurance I seek in relation to the maritime heritage? Will sustainable development in marine planning terms explicitly include sustaining the cultural heritage as well as the natural heritage? Will the licensing duties to protect the environment protect the marine historic environment? Will marine conservation zones take account of existing designations in conserving the marine historic environment? Is that what Defra contemplates as well as the DCMS? If so, how will it work, and who will do what? I do not expect the Minister to be able to answer all these

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questions here and now, but these are important issues that are usefully prompted by this amendment. Will the inshore fisheries and conservation authorities be required to safeguard the historic environment in co-operation with the MMO, English Heritage, local authorities and others?

These are simply some of the issues that are implicit in this helpful Amendment 33. I do not know whether the Government wish to accept it, or something like it. I have noticed that Governments are always rather resistant to what they call catalogues, but the Committee expects the provisions of this legislation to be considerably more precise, indicative and concrete than they appear to be at the moment. I would not dream of using the same language as the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, in any animadversions I might offer on the drafting of the Bill. We will be able to return in greater detail—indeed, in greater elaboration—to these issues in subsequent amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, to which I have had the pleasure of adding my name. For now, it would be helpful if the Minister would look forward and give us an initial account of his thinking in this regard.

Baroness Hooper: I follow the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, in supporting this group of amendments, in particular Amendment 33, tabled by my noble friend, and within that amendment, paragraph (e), which deals with the MMO’s need to have regard,

“for heritage and marine archaeology”.

I appreciate that the main thrust of the Bill, and perhaps its original objective, was the conservation of the natural environment as well to deal with fisheries and other practical issues affecting our coastline. However, in the absence of a heritage protection Bill, which had been widely anticipated, this has to be the vehicle for our concerns. As the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and others have said, in this and previous debates, it is in the interests of co-ordinated thinking and joined-up government that we should think now of other interested parties and agencies that could be involved in the role of the MMO, and indeed, in subsequent parts of the Bill, in relation to the MPS and MCZs. We seek to deal on a holistic basis with all the interests affected by the Bill and to ensure that it deals with everything that affects our coastline and our history as a maritime nation.

As the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said, I raised these issues at Second Reading, so I will not go into detail again, or reiterate what he said. However, it would be helpful to have a general reaction from the Minister. He replied in a positive way to the remarks I made at Second Reading and said that I had made a very important point. I am glad that he responded to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on the previous set of amendments. I have already tabled amendments, with the support of other noble Lords from around the Committee, and we will be able to debate these matters in more detail. I suspect it will be necessary to table other amendments as well. In the mean time, I reiterate that I support my noble friend, particularly on Amendment 33, which I believe paves the way for these other amendments. I hope that the Government will accept the spirit of the amendments and indeed their detail as well.

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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I support my noble friend’s Amendment 32. I accept that Amendment 33 has merits, too. Both attempt further to define and spell out what the MMO should be about. Amendment 32 draws strength—I congratulate my noble friends on drawing the parallel—from the NERC Act, because some time was spent by the Government and their team, and members of both Houses, in drawing out what the objectives should be. Terrestrial and marine objectives are very similar. They both concern the natural environment and the environmental, social and economic considerations that we have mentioned.

I will concentrate on what my noble friends have included in the requirement to work closely with coastal communities. When we talk about social and economic factors, these communities stand to gain or lose the most from whatever happens in the marine areas directly adjacent to them. For years, they have been the guardians of the environment; they have gone out and done the beach cleaning. They are the ones who are most aware of what has happened with the sea off their coasts. They are out in their small boats, thinking about the dolphins and reporting any incidents. They have a lot at stake. I agree with the Minister about the awful word “stakeholder”, but those coastal communities are front-line stakeholders. For that reason, they deserve a particular mention in the Bill.

There seems to be a dichotomy in Amendment 179. Perhaps the noble Lords who have tabled it, in particular, the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old scone, would like to comment. The natural environment is defined as a number of things with which I would not disagree. However, the amendment ends with the words,

“and natural resources they provide”.

Surely, with aggregates, for example, there might be a conflict because the natural environment—if we mean the seabed—might be the very thing that would be damaged by the other thing that is also defined; namely, the aggregates that might be extracted from it. The amendment might be stronger if those words were deleted.

Lord Eden of Winton: I have great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, who regretted that he was unable to take part at Second Reading. I found myself in a similar position because I had to attend a funeral on that day. I should very much have liked to have made my more generalised comments at that time, which would have given me a better platform on which to take part in Committee. That said, I note that under this clause the MMO has a duty to control, co-ordinate, regulate and manage. In that sense, the MMO is intended by the Government to be an enabling organisation, a facilitating organisation and a regulating organisation. In summary, those are its duties.

I like these amendments because they put a more direct onus of responsibility on the MMO to carry out more specific duties, which cover an immense range of interests and responsibilities, during its lifetime. Under Amendment 32 it is called on to promote various activities, such as,

“marine conservation ... enhancing the marine landscape ... promoting the study ... and enjoyment of the marine environment”,

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and “undertaking research”. Under Amendment 33, there is an even wider range of activities which the MMO has to bear in mind. The debate on the previous group of amendments clearly brought out some of the complexities that will arise when the MMO tries to co-ordinate its activities with other interested organisations and authorities, not to say Governments.

Amendment 33, tabled by my noble friend, is very interesting. The range of activities and interests that the MMO would have a duty to concern itself with are clearly spelt out. These duties feature in quite a number of later amendments and some will require a lot of authoritative input by the MMO. My one regret, which I have stated before, is that an imperative is not placed on the MMO to carry out what I have always regarded and thought to be the primary objective of the Government: the establishment of marine conservation zones to protect marine life.

I had the opportunity, as did other Members of the Committee, to be present at a short talk given by Professor Callum Roberts, professor of marine conservation biology at the University of York. He is an extremely able individual and, perhaps I may say without being patronising towards him, I thought he gave a most impressive performance. During the Summer Recess I took the opportunity to read his book The Unnatural History of the Sea, which covers 1,000 years of man’s exploitation of marine life. It is a horrible story, utterly horrendous. I thought that the prime motor behind the Government bringing in this Bill was to ensure that, first and foremost, animal life in our seas would no longer be exploited without regard to its sustainability and ability to recover from the fishing operations and other activities which mankind imposes on it.

4.45 pm

I thought that the main purpose of the Bill was to establish a network of conservation areas around our country. I now have grave doubts that that is so. As all these other curious bits and pieces are brought in, the MMO seems to be swimming around lost in this great wide ocean of conflicting interests, which it is somehow going to have to meet, engage with, control, regulate and manage. I hope the Minister will be able to give me some reassurance. If not, I suspect that we will have to come back and find some formula along the lines of the amendments moved.

Lord Oxburgh: Amendments 33 and 179 are wholly admirable and I support them in their entirety. I will talk a little about Amendment 32, with which I am, again, extremely sympathetic. As a professional geologist and, at times, a marine geologist, I am a little bothered by the concept, in paragraph (b) of the new subsection in Amendment 32, of enhancing seabed and geological features, particularly geological features. I am not sure quite how one would do that or, indeed, whether one ought to do that.

Putting that aside, I turn to proposed paragraph (d). Had the Minister been able to be a little more accommodating on the role of science in this organisation on our first day in Committee, I do not think I would have spoken to it. However, it gives us an opportunity

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to pursue this a little further. We should recognise that, wholly laudably, the Government have, in a series of appointments—both within and outside this House—recognised the importance of professional expertise. In his replies on the first day, the Minister repeated that science and professional expertise are not particularly more important than other competencies, simply because access to the best advice would be available. That really is not enough.

The very minimum that this organisation must have is the in-house scientific capability to be an intelligent customer. If we do not have that, we are really lost. Although I certainly would not go as far as the full wording of proposed paragraph (d), which would turn this into a full-blown research organisation with significant overlaps with the NERC, there must be some in-house research capability because this is how one maintains professional competence and expertise. I would simply like the Minister to reflect on this. I believe, as I think many noble Lords do, that science has a special role in this organisation which somehow has to be recognised. It may not have to be recognised in the Bill but it must be recognised in the way that appointments are made. Frankly, if this organisation does not have significant internal scientific competence, it simply will not amount to anything.

Lord Bridges: I make a brief intervention arising from local knowledge. I am attracted by paragraph (e), on “heritage and marine archaeology”, of the proposed new subsection. Living on the east coast of England, I am extremely aware of the number of predators who come from hundreds of miles away to dig offshore for historic remnants, including remnants of the Spanish Armada, which was finally wrecked on that coast. These activities are largely uncontrolled at the moment. Although the breadth of interests covered in the Bill is alarming, I hope that this one will not be omitted from consideration.

Baroness Byford: I support my noble friend’s two amendments. Although the Minister shook his head when he said that he fears there will be lists of specific requirements, I hope that he will think about what the amendments seek to do if he cannot accept them as they are.

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