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As I said last week, it is the vision thing. The Minister showed that he had the vision thing in a statement he made early on in his piece. He said what he thought Clause 2 should do—unfortunately, I was not quick enough to write it all down, but I am looking forward to reading it in Hansard. The Minister illustrated the scope that the Bill should have. It should have such wording as would alleviate many of our concerns that the Bill does not demonstrate sufficiently in this important clause the purpose of the legislation and the background against which the MMO should be taking these important decisions. I welcome the opportunity, which the Minister has indicated to us, to talk to him along with other noble Lords about the important issues raised in the debate.
Lord Tyler: In responding to the debate on this group of amendments led by Amendment 32 I endorse entirely what the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said about the development of consensus. I have always been a consensual politician. It is a delight to have been the lightning conductor for consensus this afternoon. I am sure that when the Minister is given an opportunity to reflect he will join us. Some critical comments have been made about the present Clause 2: that the MMO general objectives are flabby and woolly. Some of us may have considered it to be even worse than that but were far too polite to say so.
In passing, before I come back to Amendments 32 and 33, I have a great deal of sympathy with Amendment 179, although I endorse the point made by my noble friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer that maybe even it needs reworking if its purpose is to be absolutely clear.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I should have referred to the noble Baroness’s remarks about the real problem of attempting to approach an amendment in this way and the argument that one can have about the particular parts of the list that you put in.
Lord Tyler: This rejection of all lists comes curiously from a Minister who recently was part of a Government who put through the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006. That is where I would like to point out the difference between Amendments 32 and 33. The reason why my noble friends and I supported Amendment 32 is that it is solidly based on a specific requirement passed by this House two and a half years ago when we were setting out the general purpose of Natural England. We were not overtly specific. We were not being so definitive that we might circumscribe the role of the MMO. We were giving out exactly the same sort of general objectives as this Parliament decided, as recently as that, for the terrestrial comparable organisation. That is why I have a slight preference for our amendment against Amendment 33.
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The noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Eden of Winton, pointed out that our two amendments are not mutually incompatible. I am sure that given goodwill and encouragement from the Minister we could find a way of bringing them together in a way that would make them comprehensive. Our amendment has one advantage in that it is a little more open-ended regarding the natural changes to which the Minister has referred that are going to take place. It is not so specific that in two or three years we may want to change those objectives, which may be a fault in Amendment 33. However, there is a more general point. I am not a lawyer, let alone a constitutional lawyer, but I take an interest in these things. When Parliament has decided as recently as two and half years ago that a list of this sort is an appropriate way to put a set of objectives in an Act, that should be taken as guidance on how we approach this particular legislation.
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Equally, I accept the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, that the references to heritage are important. The Minister’s explanation of how this will be handled had some credibility. I am anxious that we do not include in the objectives such specific references that it precludes that sort of arrangement.
The other reason that I feel strongly that simply accepting Amendment 33 and discarding Amendment 32 would be a mistake is that Amendment 32 makes reference to coastal communities, to which other Members of the Committee have referred. It was specific in the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006, which created Natural England; it refers to “working with local communities”. If it could be in that Act, for a terrestrial body with these environmental objectives, surely it should also be there for those concerned with the marine environment.
The Minister suggested that all this can be left until we get around to the marine policy statement. I do not think that that is right. There should be a framework in which the MMO is asked to set these priorities for the marine policy statements, which will of course be a matter of wide consultation.
The Minister sounds characteristically forthcoming and says he will reflect. It must be clear to him that, after one hour and 20 minutes this afternoon, there is a consensus in the Committee that Clause 2 is not up to scratch. It is not yet “quite right”, he said. The Committee will want to hold him to that. We will reflect on what he has to say.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I must make myself clear. I clearly acknowledged that Members of the Committee feel that the provision is not quite right. I have said that I am keen to discuss with Members of the Committee whether it can be improved. But the noble Lord must not take that as a commitment. I have also put forward genuine concerns about the difficulty of drafting in this area. I hope that makes things clear on the record.
Lord Tyler: I am grateful, but the Minister also said that there were drafting issues. I was not clear whether that was our drafting or the Government’s, but I think that there is a consensus around the Committee that
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Amendments 33 and 34 not moved.
35: Clause 2, page 2, line 16, leave out “that area” and insert “the UK marine area or an adjacent area of sea or land”
Lord Tyler: By contrast, this is a simple drafting amendment. I am sure that the Minister and other Members of the Committee will be grateful for that.
The Bill reads as overly restrictive to “that area” on page 2, line 16. It is quite clear from our discussions this afternoon, let alone the briefing we have had from the Minister and his team, that we also need to be a bit more general in that reference. Not only must “that area” be considered, but also,
Without that, the clause would be dangerously restrictive. These adjacent areas could, for example, include the area around the Isle of Man, which we were looking at on the maps yesterday, as well as the Scottish inshore area. On a wider international scale, they could be areas under the control of the Republic of Ireland or the French Government, which are so close to the UK’s marine zone that they could be very easily affected by what goes on within that zone and vice versa. Inevitably, this is a probing amendment. I hope that it is very straightforward. It seems important that this principle should be established at this stage and, therefore, I am pleased to move the amendment.
The Duke of Montrose: The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has here proposed some very sensible amendments, which echo some of the worries that we had about other bodies. We support these amendments. I accept that Clause 2(2) is dedicated to expanding the idea of what is consistent and co-ordinated. The Bill makes sure that “consistent and co-ordinated” includes the consequences of decisions in any particular part of the UK marine area and the activity occurring within it. However, surely it is obvious that there is something missing. In order to have a fully consistent and co-ordinated approach, it is important that it is made clear that the consequences of any action must be taken into account not just in respect of other parts of the marine area, but also on any adjacent area of sea or land.
Without this proviso, are we not in danger of subordinating land or sea outside the UK marine area? While it is important that the right decisions are made in terms of anything covered by the MMO’s power, it is perhaps just as important to take into account any damage, or indeed benefit, which may occur as a result of this on an adjacent area. Does the
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Lord Davies of Oldham: The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has suggested that this was a drafting amendment; I winced a little at that, although it is certainly different from the one we have just debated. He went on to say that it is a probing amendment to see where the Government stand on these issues. It is to that dimension that I will respond, particularly as it has been reinforced by the remarks of the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose.
It is clear that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, would require the MMO to consider the impact of its activities beyond the areas in which it has any function, or perhaps even any influence. I confirm that the intention of the Bill is to ensure that the MMO manages, regulates and controls activities in the marine environment in a consistent and co-ordinated way. As my noble friend Lord Hunt set out a few moments ago, it will be operating within the framework of a marine planning system, which includes a number of requirements to consider at the planning stage the likely impact of any proposed plan, not only on adjacent areas but also any area which may be affected by the proposal.
For example, Schedule 6, which needs to be considered in this context, requires that marine plan authorities notify adjacent plan authorities, both marine and terrestrial, when they start planning and then take reasonable steps to secure compatibility with any adjacent plans. The schedule also contains a separate requirement that marine plan authorities have regard to the effect which any proposal for inclusion in a plan is likely to have on any related area. In this context, “related” includes any adjacent area of sea or land, as well as any areas that may be affected by the proposal, whether directly adjacent or not.
This context is significantly wider than the one envisaged in the noble Lord’s amendment. We recognise that at the planning stage other areas—not even adjacent areas—may be affected, and the MMO will need to take that into account.
When carrying out its planning functions, the MMO will also need to comply with the European Union directive on the strategic environmental assessment of plans and programmes. The assessment directive requires, for example, any adjacent member state to be consulted if a proposed marine plan is likely to have significant effects on its environment. We can all envisage circumstances in which that might be the case. These requirements therefore ensure that the impacts of different activities on the environment and each other are considered at the planning stage, rather than as individual decisions are made. I maintain that this is a more coherent and effective way of dealing with the issues.
The MMO will be operating for the United Kingdom Government in English waters, and in UK waters except where the devolved Administrations have those functions. It will make its decisions in accordance with marine plans, which will have been developed having regard to the impacts of the proposals on adjacent or related areas at sea and on land. Co-ordination between
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A key aim—indeed, the basis—of the Bill is to move our marine management from a case-by-case consideration of individual projects and impacts to a forward-looking and strategic approach. The provisions in Clause 2 supplement this framework by requiring the Marine Management Organisation to apply that co-ordinated approach within its own operations.
I listened with the greatest care to our prolonged debate on the inadequacies of Clause 2, and I appreciate that my noble friend will think further on those matters. However, the crucial issue of co-ordination is being fleshed out in the response to this amendment. It involves a rather wider dimension than the noble Lord suggested when moving the amendment, so I hope that credit will be given to the Government for thinking strategically, as that is at the heart of the Bill. Clause 2 offers that certainty.
I hope that my explanation has established that the Government are fully apprised of the concerns articulated by the noble Lord and that we have a structure that enables us to take into account dimensions even wider than those that he put forward when advocating the amendment. I hope that he will be reassured in that respect and that he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tyler: As always, I shall read with great care in Hansard precisely what the Minister has said. My first reaction is that it all sounds excellent but it is not in this part of the clause at the moment. There is currently no reference to assessing the impact on adjacent areas. That was the burden of what he said and it seems to me incredibly important. The clause specifically deals with the “consistent and co-ordinated” approach in so far as it applies to the MMO area. That area is referred to twice in this subsection. The Minister’s explanation sounded pretty good but between now and Report I shall have to look very carefully at whether it is here in this clause. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendments 36 to 51 not moved.
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52: Clause 2, page 2, line 30, at end insert—
“(5A) Guidance issued under subsection (3) shall be—
(a) issued within one year of the MMO’s establishment; and
(b) reviewed from time to time.”
Earl Cathcart: This is the last group of amendments to Clause 2. Amendment 52 introduces a timeframe for the guidance which the Secretary of State is required to issue to the MMO under Clause 2(3). Rather than leaving the timescale open, it requires that guidance
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The Bill is particularly vague and undefined at points where it is necessary to have clarity. Without the amendment, the Secretary of State is required under subsection (3) to give the MMO guidance on how it should contribute to sustainable development; but there is no specification about when that guidance should be delivered. Without precise arrangements, the Secretary of State might not publish the guidance for years; and under the Bill there would be no way of calling him to account. Without the necessary guidance, the contribution made by the MMO to sustainable development would, sadly, be diminished.
Last week, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made it clear that we should be reassured that:
“In addition to its duties laid down in the Bill, the MMO will operate in accordance with the new marine policy statement ... [and] guidance by the Secretary of State”.—[Official Report, 12/1/09; col. 1100.]
Does the Minister agree that he has, therefore, underlined the importance of the speedy production of that guidance? Perhaps he will tell us what timeframe he envisaged for its publication. There should be provision for review. The MMO, following old, out-of-date guidance, risks being ineffective at best and damaging at worst. Will he tell us how he thinks a review process, as yet not written into the legislation, will work? I beg to move.
Lord Tyler: I speak briefly to Amendment 53 and endorse the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, about the Government giving us clear advice on how they see guidance being given and received. As those who have been in local authorities will know, it is common practice that local authorities always have to have regard to guidance given by Whitehall and Ministers. There seems to be no obligation on the MMO to have regard to, let alone consider carefully and implement, the guidance given here. There seems to be a discrepancy—a divergence from common practice in local authorities—regarding this agency of central government. It is important that we get clearer advice from the Minister on precisely how the MMO is supposed to treat the guidance it may be given; hence the amendment. Like the Conservative Front Bench, we seek a clear exposition from the Minister on how the guidance is to be given, on what timescale, and how it is to be treated by the MMO.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: Can the Minister tell us when the Secretary of State for Environment at Westminster will consult all the devolved parliaments and assemblies and get them to agree the guidance?
Lord Kingsland: In his response, will the Minister say something about the relationship between guidance, directions by the Secretary of State under Clause 35, and the marine policy statement? They all issue from the Secretary of State. Is there a hierarchy? If so, what is the order of that hierarchy? In circumstances where guidance might conflict with directions or the marine policy statement, how is the Marine Management Organisation supposed to behave?
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: The noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, seeks to amend Clause 2(3), the effect of which would be to ensure that the MMO is issued with guidance within one year of its establishment on how it is to achieve its objective. We do not believe that it is necessary to legislate for a deadline for the Secretary of State to issue such guidance. That is a level of detail inappropriate for primary legislation. It is clearly in the Government’s interest to make sure that the MMO delivers their policy objectives effectively. Our firm intention is to issue guidance to the Marine Management Organisation on the day that it commences its activities. Moreover, I can reassure noble Lords that we will review and if necessary amend the guidance at appropriate points; for example, on publication or review of the marine policy statement, on publication or review of marine plans, or as our understanding of sustainable development evolves.
Amendment 53 imposes a requirement that the Marine Management Organisation must have regard to the guidance issued to it by the Secretary of State under Clause 2(3). I refer the noble Lord to Clause 36. It makes clear that:
“The MMO must have regard to any guidance given to it by the Secretary of State”.
That includes the guidance to be issued to the MMO by the Secretary of State, under Clause 2, on how it is to achieve its general objective. Clause 2(4) provides that:
“The Secretary of State must consult the MMO before giving any guidance”;
and Clause 2(5) provides that he,
- “must take into consideration ... the functions of the MMO, and ... the resources available, or likely to be available, to the MMO”.
The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, asked an interesting question about the guidance given under Clause 2, which relates to the duty in the general objective in that clause. Clause 2(3) makes it clear that:
“The Secretary of State is to give the MMO guidance as to the manner in which the MMO is to seek to secure that the contribution to the achievement of sustainable development mentioned in subsection (1)(b) is made”.
He also referred to Clause 35, which relates to the directions that the Secretary of State may give in respect of any of the Marine Management Organisation’s functions, and to the marine policy statement.
We believe that the Bill’s provisions are part of a consistent thread that goes from the sustainable development principles, via the high-level objectives and marine policy statement, through to their application by the Marine Management Organisation in individual decision-making. As I indicated, the Marine Management Organisation will be issued with guidance on how it is to achieve its general objectives. The organisation will clearly be required to operate within the constraints of the marine policy statement, a subject we will come to in the debate on Part 3. The power of direction under Clause 35 makes it clear that the Secretary of State may give the Marine Management Organisation,
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