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The Prime Minister has had plenty of opportunity to disown his ugly turn of phrase, once it had been pointed out to him by friend and foe alike. All these weasel words from the Prime Minister and his colleagues now are as ineffective as they are demeaning. Once again, it is a case of too little, too late. But I want to help the Secretary of State if at all possible, so let us go back to first principles. Once again I endorse the fact that the core principle of the free movement of goods, services and labour is crucial both to international trade and our domestic well-being. Overall, everyone benefits from this freedom, and delivering the single market has been the supreme achievement of the European Union. As the Secretary of State has just said, we are a great trading nation, but it is very sad that we now have the biggest trade deficit in goods since 1674. Paradoxically, at a time of economic downturn, free movement is more important than ever, but as jobs vanish and industries contract, more immediate concerns can cloud people’s judgment and make protectionism seem like a comfortable line of least resistance. We cannot allow that specious argument to win by default. We owe it to our country to stick to our principles and restate the case for free markets with even greater vigour and patience than ever before.
The Secretary of State does not need me to tell him that the economy is in a terrible state and that many people are understandably fearful about the future. When making the case for free and open markets and against protectionism, he will have to choose his language with great care and demonstrate a considerable degree of sensitivity. I know that Mr Humphrys at the BBC subjected him to a certain amount of antagonism and provocation this morning, as did his Cabinet colleague Alan Johnson with some naive and populist words over the weekend. However, while we cannot condone wildcat strikes and picketing of the kind we have been seeing, we do have to understand people’s fears. We must all choose our words with due care and attention. Although of course Alan Johnson did not condone wildcat strikes, it was surely inflammatory for him to speak in the terms he did.
So I ask the Secretary of State whether he thinks that the Secretary of State for Health now accepts that what he said was wrong. Secondly, is what the Secretary of State just said to us the unanimous view not only of his department, but also of the Government? Thirdly, what steps are the Government going to take to enforce the law, given the words of the Secretary of State this afternoon? Next, how does all this fit with Warwick 2,
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Finally, as long as Ministers stand firm in defence of the rule of law and against any madcap rush to protectionism, we shall support them. There is no blank cheque, however, and we shall be paying close attention to everything the Secretary of State and his senior colleagues say and do in the days ahead. The sad fact is that if the Government do not wake up soon, the winter of discontent will turn into the spring of depression.
3.30 pm
Lord Razzall: My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, in welcoming the Statement from the Secretary of State. I waited with eager anticipation, as did, no doubt, members of the other parties in your Lordships’ House, to discover what line the Conservative opposition would take on this issue and, although I would not necessarily have used the tone of some of the noble Lord’s questions, I agree with virtually everything he said. However, I wait with interest as to whether it emerges that he speaks for the whole of his party in relation to the glorification of the Euromarket. We on these Benches very much hope that he does, but whether the Eurosceptics have been delayed by the snow remains to be seen.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is right that this matter, until today, has not been handled with felicity by Her Majesty’s Government. It was unfortunate that Alan Johnson made the remarks that he did on the television yesterday, shortly to be slapped down by the noble Lord the Secretary of State when he managed to get his retaliation in first. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, indicated, it is particularly unfortunate that the speechwriters for the Prime Minister two years ago pinched the slogans from the BNP in a pseudo-clever way that we should have British jobs for British workers. I note with interest that that remark is now being spun as meaning that we have to give British workers proper training and proper skilling. I did not attend the Labour Party conference but certainly on hearing that speech I did not hear it as meaning proper skilling or proper training; I took it as a straight attempt to eliminate any risk from the BNP in certain areas of the north and Midlands.
There is a suspicion that the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, is here to take the hit for this because he is not standing for election and he is the person who should put his head over the parapet. I have never believed that suspicion about the noble Lord and we should take his Statement as being absolutely straight. There is not a word in it that either the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, or I would disagree with. I emphasise, as did the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, the importance to our economy of the continuation of our trade with Europe. As we speak, British companies are contracting with organisations throughout Europe. Particularly given the reduction of the pound against the euro, British companies will enter into contracts that will employ British workers who would otherwise lose their jobs. It is absolutely vital, as the noble
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However, having said that, we ought to pause and reflect on why this is happening. Large numbers of people are either losing their jobs or are frightened that they will lose their jobs over the next month or two. They do not know how they can blame or kick out at the Conservative Party’s friends in the financial services community, or at the Government as no elections are coming up. They feel deeply frustrated.
To pick up on the final point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, it is vital that the Government take whatever action they can to ensure that the situation does not disintegrate into riots on our streets, as is happening in a number of other European countries.
3.36 pm
Lord Mandelson: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Wirral and Lord Razzall, for their responses to their Statement and the support that they offer the Government, on whose behalf I speak unanimously, as one person. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his welcome to me to the Dispatch Box. I fear that if I keep turning up like this every week I might start to test his patience; he might get fed up with seeing me.
It is important to say that when feelings run high in such a situation as this, it is often tempting for politicians to make political capital. I am glad that the opposition parties have resisted that temptation—I hope I do not speak too soon—and I commend that to all those who are party to this dispute. We should keep our sights set firmly not on the politics of xenophobia but on the economics of the recession, and we should continue to do all that is necessary to get us through it as quickly and painlessly as possible.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, rather traduced my right honourable friend the Health Secretary, Alan Johnson. Incidentally, I was not slapping him down yesterday. Noble Lords will have to accept that I am now a fully reformed character; I do not do slapping down any more. The noble Lord also traduces my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. It is an important aim and aspiration of any Government to create the fullest possible employment for the people who elected them, and that is all that he was saying. He was not saying “only” British jobs “only” for British workers—of course not. He was not attempting to tear up the EU rule book as he spoke; that would have benefited absolutely no one.
The noble Lord asked me some questions. First, he asked whether I was offering the unanimous view of the Government. Of course I am. Secondly, he asked how we will enforce the law. We will always enforce the law, and if it comes to light that the law has been broken we will of course take action accordingly. In the first instance, however, it is for ACAS to report that to us, and on the basis of the facts that I have examined I see no instance in which UK law has been broken. Should that arise, we will of course take the appropriate action.
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The noble Lord also asked me about Warwick Two. I have to admit that I have not seen Warwick Two either, but I am sure that it is only days, if not moments, away from finding itself on my desk. By way of explanation I can say only that I was away at the time, serving the country elsewhere.
The noble Lord made a good point, and the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, added his view on this as well: we do not want to turn the present economic circumstances facing the country into something even worse. As a general observation, I have no doubt that protectionism would turn this recession into a depression, and it is therefore the last thing we need.
3.39 pm
Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, I welcome the assurances given by Total and the Minister about advertising and discrimination, but I seek clarification on one point. When foreign firms bring their own labour to fulfil a contract which they have won, could that in some circumstances infringe the principle of free movement of labour within the EC or does the present interpretation of the courts allow that?
Lord Mandelson: My Lords, the original directive and its interpretation certainly allows for subcontracted companies to draw on their own permanent workforce to fulfil that contract. The posting of workers directive not only provides for free movement of labour in Europe but also puts in place very important protections for labour posted overseas, such that all workers’ statutory employment rights should be respected and upheld. That includes adherence to the statutory national minimum wage, equal pay, health and safety, and paid leave and it is absolutely right that that should remain the case. As a Government, we will do everything we possibly can to ensure that that is the case.
Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, my noble friend has just referred to the national minimum wage as being the wage guaranteed by the United Kingdom’s transposition of the posting of workers directive. That is a lot lower than the local collective bargaining benchmark standard. My noble friend will remember as well as I do the discussion that led up to the United Kingdom’s transposition into UK law in 1999 of the posting of workers directive. He will remember in particular that we had the option of a combination of collective bargaining standards as well as statutory standards. The only statutory standard in this country in that regard is the minimum wage. Given that, according to the Statement, we have still met the local collective bargaining standards for the area, would it not be a reassurance for people in this position if my noble friend could consider a small amendment to the regulations transposing the posting of workers directive so that in this country it can be collective bargaining standards as well as the minimum wage that are taken into account?
I say that because over the past 20 years it has been a tremendous challenge to reassure people in this country that the single market, free movement, and so on will be part of an enhancement of their living standards and rights. This would be a reassurance
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Lord Mandelson: My Lords, I understand very well the point being made and the case being argued by my noble friend Lord Lea. I accept that where rights or entitlements that have been collectively negotiated and bargained are higher than the statutory minima, of course it is possible for these collectively bargained standards to be accepted, operated and implemented by all sides, but they need to do so voluntarily. In many cases, they are operated in that way. As I said in the Statement, in the case of the Lindsey refinery, all subcontractors adhere to the national agreement for the engineering construction industry which governs terms and conditions, working hours and pay. However, I do not think it is reasonable for us to seek to change the law in respect of this European directive that would extend collectively bargained entitlements to all companies and employees in adjacent employment. That is not a right that is enjoyed in UK law, let alone EU law.
Lord Hoyle: My Lords, I declare that I am a member of Unite. I completely agree with my noble friend that we must all be temperate in what we say, particularly as negotiations continue. However, I understood him to say that one of the contentious points was that British workers were not allowed to apply for any of these jobs but that he has now received assurances that in future both subcontractors and British workers will be given that opportunity.
Lord Mandelson: My Lords, so much so is it the case that British workers were able to apply for these jobs that the subcontractor undertaking this work, prior to the letting of this contract to the Italian firm, was another subcontractor which, for whatever reason—I am not ascribing fault to either side—was unable to fulfil its contract. That is important, because I gather that most of the workers were indeed British, but the contract was not fulfilled. It was only in those circumstances that an alternative subcontractor, in this case an Italian subcontractor, was then recruited by the original company. So it is simply not the case to suggest that British workers have somehow been barred or excluded from the Lindsey refinery. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, is it not rather mischievous to make capital out of the phrase “British jobs for British workers”? Surely it would have been far more dangerous and controversial if he had said “British workers for British jobs”, but the Prime Minister never said that.
Lord Mandelson: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. We must all expect to have our phrases and soundbites misused from time to time, and taken up like a stick with which to beat us. Such are the trials of political life.
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Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the slogan “British jobs for British workers” is much older than the National Front or the BNP? It is a clarion call that has reverberated around this House on many occasions over the past 200 or 250 years, and, indeed, has as often come from the right or the left of politics. On an equally neutral note, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether he can give an indication of the reciprocity that exists between the movement of British workers toward the European Union, and in the other direction, and how that compares either in global or percentage terms.
Lord Mandelson: My Lords, I am unable to provide the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, with the figures that he asks for but I am happy to make inquiries of my officials. He is right to say that such an aspiration is a worthy clarion call and a noble policy objective, as long as it does not involve the infringement of either EU or UK law, and of course that was certainly not the Prime Minister’s intention.
Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, I declare an interest as a director of Sellafield Ltd, although what I am going to say has nothing to do with Sellafield. The Minister, in a very temperate and moderate Statement today which I think we can all agree with, laid great emphasis on the European directive that any subcontractor winning a contract within the European Union can quite reasonably bring forward its own permanent staff. Am I to believe that that is restricted to permanent staff, and that the subcontractor would not be allowed to recruit additional staff in the home country to the exclusion of people in the host country?
Lord Mandelson: My Lords, my noble friend is right. You cannot advertise a job vacancy and say only people of one nationality need apply, or indeed one race, or one sex.
The Earl of Erroll: My Lords, is the national minimum wage that applies that of the UK or that of the subcontractor? If it is the subcontractor’s, or in either case, what powers do we have to check that it really is paying that national minimum wage, because we presumably do not see the tax returns of the country concerned?
Lord Mandelson: My Lords, the point is they are not paying the national minimum wage in this case. They are paying the same rates as those that have been collectively bargained to benefit other workers at the refinery. As a general observation, of course we can establish this; were there a suspicion that posted workers were being paid below the national minimum wage and the situation that the noble Lord describes arose, then of course we would have no hesitation at all in sending in the wage inspectorate to ascertain the facts and take action.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, does the Minister therefore mean that the Italian workers at this refinery are being the paid the same wages as the British ones?
Lord Mandelson: Yes, my Lords, they are.
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Banking Bill
Bill Main Page
Bill as Amended in Committee
Explantory Notes
Amendment Paper
3rd Report from Constitution Committee
Report (1st Day)
3.51 pm
Baroness Noakes: My Lords, in moving Amendment 1, I launch what I hope will be an enjoyable couple of days on Report. With the leave of the House, I will address some overall issues before turning to my amendment. I am aware that the Minister’s officials have been working extremely hard on the Bill, and they have produced letters following our Committee sittings in record time. We much appreciated that. However, we were disappointed that the Government did not table a single amendment until late last Thursday. We had agreed, obviously, to waive the usual interval of two weeks between Committee and Report for a Bill of this length and complexity. This gave less than six days—in fact only three sitting days—between the two stages. The Government guidelines indicate that amendments should be tabled one clear week before Report. But as I have said, the Government tabled none before late on Thursday, not even those that arose out of the first four days of Committee. I hope that that was not a tactic to restrict the preparation time of the Opposition. If so, I can assure the Minister that we are fully prepared for battles ahead. I hope that he is well prepared with a file full of speaking notes that do not say “resist”, but rather, “accept”. We shall see.
More seriously, this has meant that we have had little time to prepare for Report and, in particular, consult outside bodies which have a real interest in the Bill. Accordingly, since we have accommodated variations to normal practice to facilitate the passage of the Bill, I hope that the Government will agree to relax the normal constraint on the carrying-over of points to Third Reading. This is particularly the case in relation to Clauses 22, 34, 38 and 48.
I am very grateful to the Treasury for arranging a meeting between parliamentary counsel and lawyers who specialise in financial services and for allowing me to attend. These areas continue to raise difficult and technical issues which we will need to consider further, including the possibility of tabling amendments for Third Reading. I believe that the Minister has agreed that and, subject to his confirmation, I will not be moving my amendments to those clauses today.
We may also need to refer to some other issues, and I hope that I can rely on the Minister and the usual channels for a reasonable response if we need to make a case. I should stress I am not asking for a wholesale suspension of the rules.
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I should also say that we were obliged for practical reasons to table our amendments without sight of the Government’s, so there is some duplication between the government amendments and our own. That is unfortunate, but I hope it will not impede the work of the House on Report.
Amendment 1 concerns the first of the three stabilisation options. It is the one that the Government say that they favour, and it is certainly our favoured solution to bank failure. It involves transfer to what is described in the Bill as the private sector. In Committee I moved an amendment to Clause 11, because that clause was headed “Private sector purchaser”, but in fact it talks about selling all or part of the business of the bank to a commercial purchaser. I naively thought that this might be a mistake, because the two—commercial and private sector—are clearly not synonymous. The Minister surprised me in Committee by saying that the Government wanted to be able to sell to what he described as a,
- “healthy deposit taker in which the Government are a shareholder”.—[Official Report, 14/1/09; col. 1241.]
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