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Earl Cathcart: We talked at length about the relationship between the IPC and the MMO when debating Amendment 59 and subsequent amendments.
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There are similar arguments with regard to the Department of Energy and Climate Change when licensing oil and gas activities and carbon dioxide storage. Clause 74 currently completely exempts DECC from the provisions in this Bill. I fully concede that it should probably be responsible for the oil and gas and carbon storage activities, as it has the knowledge and expertise. I should like the Minister to tell the Committee how DECC will interact with this marine Bill, if at all, and I have a number of questions.
First, will DECC be advised by the MMO and, if so, what will happen if DECC does not take its advice? Secondly, will it need to comply with the marine policy statement? Thirdly, will it need to comply with the marine plans? Fourthly, will it respect the marine conservation zones? Fifthly, who will ensure that DECC complies with the EU marine strategy framework directive? We believe that it should be the MMO. I remind the Committee that under this directive member states are required to deliver good environmental status, or GES, by applying,
- “an ecosystem-based approach to the management of human activities, ensuring that the collective pressure of such activities is kept within levels compatible with the achievement of good environmental status”.
The Committee is fortunate that the noble Lord is the Minister not only for Defra but also for DECC and is therefore in an ideal position to say how these two departments will interact when it comes to offshore activities. We need to ensure that the activities of DECC are not incompatible with the marine objectives set out in the Bill.
4 pm
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: The noble Earl has raised a very important question. Perhaps I may respond, first, to the question of the IPC and the MMO. We have debated this matter on a number of occasions with regard to this Bill, and I remind noble Lords that we also had extensive debate on it during the passage of the Planning Bill, which led to this House enacting it only 12, 13 or 14 weeks ago. Of course, the MMO is in a strong position to give advice to the IPC. In the end, the IPC must make its own judgments, but it will do so within the context of the NPS. We have said that the marine policy statement and the NPS will be consistent. Although the IPC must clearly make its own decisions, that will be in the very strong context of agreed government policy in the marine policy statement and the national planning statement.
I suspect we will come back to debate this at Report, but we are ensuring the integrity of the planning system so that there is consistency on land and in the marine area. We are also ensuring that the MMO’s wisdom and advice is brought to the fore. It is worth making the point that any conditions attached to any consent given by the IPC would fall to be policed by the MMO, so we expect there to be a very close working relationship.
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It is true that under the Bill I propose to exempt myself as a Minister of DECC from its provisions on oil and gas. I well understand that noble Lords want to question me on that point. Essentially, that exemption reflects the key strategic importance of oil and gas. The Government took a decision at an early stage of the development of oil and gas licensing that, from an energy-security imperative, a stand-alone regime should be operated centrally. We think that that is consistent with the reservation of oil and gas matters to the UK Government. That means that we intend to maintain the current position whereby a tailored regime is operated by the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Of course, we also discussed the strategic nature of energy-related issues during debates on the Energy Act. This exclusion is entirely in line with the strategic position in both the Energy Act and the Planning Act.
I hope that I can reassure the noble Earl on the substance of the points he raised about how the Department of Energy and Climate Change will work within the more general requirements that he mentioned. The existing legislative framework for oil and gas is comprehensive, and the regimes are tailored to address the regulatory challenges posed by those activities and to ensure full compliance with stringent international obligations that govern the oil and gas industry. The existing technical specialists in the Department of Energy and Climate Change certainly possess the necessary skills to deal with those complex issues.
The existing legislative framework for oil and gas has substantial environmental protection built into it, including the need to conduct strategic environmental assurance assessments, environmental impact assessments and, where appropriate, assessments as required under the EU habitats directive. A range of environmental permits is also required to control atmospheric emissions and discharges to the sea. In not transferring those activities to the MMO, we have taken account of the comprehensive nature of the existing legislative framework and reflected the current licensing and evolution arrangements in this area, while taking the opportunity to avoid duplication and overlap between the existing regulating regimes.
Will the Department of Energy and Climate Change be advised by the MMO? The answer is yes. I can assure noble Lords that the department will consult the MMO on its marine activities. Will the department respect marine conservation zones? Yes, as a public authority, the department and the Secretary of State in particular will be bound by Clause 121, which imposes a duty on public authorities to further, or at least not hinder, the achievement of the objectives of marine conservation zones. Even if the noble Earl disagrees with the exclusion of oil and gas, I hope he recognises that we will ensure that there is consistency and read-across to the arrangements we are making in the Bill.
Baroness Byford: Before my noble friend responds, perhaps the Minister will clarify what he said. Although the IPC and DECC will, as I understand it, seek or take guidance from the MMO, they will ultimately make their own judgments. But what will happen when these judgments do not coincide? On the face of it, there could be three different views from three
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: On oil and gas, it will be the Department of Energy and Climate Change, and on matters that fall to the Infrastructure Planning Commission, it will be the IPC. They will of course be advised by the MMO. Our intention is to ensure consistency. Previous amendments would essentially have given the MMO a veto, but we disagree with that. It is right that the Department of Energy and Climate Change should make decisions on oil and gas. As for the Planning Act, there are thresholds under which planning matters of national significance will fall to the IPC. With regard to the IPC and the MMO, there will be consistency between the marine policy statement and the NPS. We will have consistency, but it is also important to understand which body will make the final decision.
Earl Cathcart: I thank the Minister for his reply and especially for restating the Government’s position on the IPC. One of our arguments in moving the amendments on the IPC was that the Planning Act ought to be amended. The Minister said that we could not possibly amend that Act because it had just been passed, but on page 243 of the Bill I see more than a page of amendments to it. So, obviously, it is possible to amend it. I will not address that now.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I would love to intervene on that point, if the noble Earl will let me. There are technical amendments which have to be made. My point is simply that we had a very good debate on this matter in our deliberations on the Planning Act, when I clearly stated government policy and its relationship to the forthcoming marine Bill. My argument is simply that the House had a very good discussion on this matter and, I thought, disposed of it.
Earl Cathcart: I am not sure that we disposed of it. I think that we will have to come back to it. In any event, I do not want to continue that debate now. We thought that our amendments were technical, too. Be that as it may, on this clause, I thank the Minister for saying that DECC will be advised by the MMO, which is a useful step forward, and that it will respect the conservation zones, which is also useful.
The Minister did not reply to the question of who will ensure that DECC, the IPC, and so on, comply with the EU directive where the cumulative effect of all these activities at sea is just too much. We have never really had a satisfactory answer to that. The Secretaries of State for three departments will each be rowing their own boat. There will be nobody to say to them that they are doing too much in an area at sea. It probably ought to be the MMO that, rather than saying, “No, you cannot do it”, flags up that there is too much activity in an area at sea.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: The noble Earl raises an important point. It is clearly important that there is consistency across government. I will take that away, have a further look at it and, in the first instance, at least write to him about how we feel it should be done.
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Baroness Byford: I am grateful to the Minister for that. I had imagined that where there was such uncertainty, the Cabinet Office or someone in that department might have the final say. That is what I was trying to get from the Minister, and I am still confused. I would be extremely grateful if he could come back to us on it.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: We always resist putting the names of departments on the face of Bills because there are always changes in the machinery of government. In the end, however, one way or another, it is a UK government responsibility. I am also clear that we need a co-ordinated and coherent response. Noble Lords have raised an important question and, rather than delay the Committee, I will take it away, have a further look at it and write to noble Lords. No doubt they will then consider whether to bring it back on Report.
Earl Cathcart: I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to come back to us on it.
Clause 74, as amended, agreed.
Clause 75: Special procedure for applications relating to harbour works
Debate on whether Clause 75 should stand part of the Bill.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: This debate follows on from our earlier debates in Committee today. I speak in a spirit of optimism that the Minister is now very much in tune with the nature of our argument about the role of the MMO.
We oppose Clauses 75 and 76, respectively affecting harbour works and electricity works, standing part of the Bill in order to generate a debate on the workings of the special provisions for which they cater. It is inevitable when dealing with an area as complex as marine licensing that there will be exemptions and special cases which will have to be taken into account. In relation to harbour works and electricity works, there are obvious problems because licences will be required not only under the Marine and Coastal Access Bill but also under the Harbours Act or the Electricity Act.
We fully agree with the Government that this is a difficult deviation from their desire that the MMO should be a one-stop shop which would enable consents to be put through a simplified process and the Minister has already said that the Government are seeking to avoid double regulation. The one-stop shop is a sensible idea and we, too, would rather that the MMO was able to process all the competing demands and then come to an overall decision having taken all factors into account. In addition, it seems wrong that an applicant should have to undertake a dual application process for one project. Nevertheless, we have decided to table stand part objections to Clauses 75 and 76 because,
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We on these Benches believe that Clauses 75 and 76 as they stand threaten to undermine some of the benefits of the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. As the Bill stands, the Secretary of State has been given an order-making power to allow the procedures from the Harbours Act or the Electricity Act to be used instead in these specific situations. It could be argued that this is one solution to the problem. Nevertheless, does the Minister admit that this leads to an excess of discretionary flexibility in the Bill? Not only could this mean confusion for potential applicants but it could also be open to abuse from interested third parties. We would like to see this flexibility withdrawn.
As Wildlife and Countryside Link has suggested, these provisions go a long way to making the process more, rather than less, complicated. Where once they looked to be favouring a simplified one-stop shop, now it looks as if the Secretary of State could be allowed to modify even the procedures of the Harbour Act or the Electricity Act. Does the Minister agree that this is not in line with the desire to simplify rather than complicate matters? Wildlife and Countryside Link has suggested that it would be more appropriate for the provisions of the Marine and Coastal Access Bill—or Act as we hope it will become—to take precedence, excepting only if the provisions of the Harbour Act or the Electricity Act are stricter. Does the Minister agree that this would achieve the Government’s goal of a simplified regime with fewer complications? Can he tell us whether the Government have considered this approach and, if so, why they have rejected it? I look forward to hearing his response.
4.15 pm
Lord Tyler: We, too, have concerns, particularly about Clause 75, for similar reasons to those of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, but perhaps with a slightly different solution in mind. We share with him the concern about complexity and confusion in this clause. I refer briefly to my experience as a constituency MP. The large number of relatively small harbours in my constituency were managed very effectively by a largely volunteer management operation of harbour commissioners, often with only one or two employees. My concern is that, under the regime that we are setting out here, the complexity involved will not produce the one-stop shop to which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, referred. Indeed, there still seems to be some degree of potential duplication and confusion with the Harbours Act.
To illustrate the way in which the management of relatively small harbours is at the moment extremely effectively and flexibly undertaken, I recall an occasion when a film company wanted to continue the effective series “Doc Martin” which I am sure many noble Lords enjoyed. It was filmed in Port Isaac, the most beautiful little harbour in the whole of the western world. There was a slight problem because the harbour commissioners had long been seeking to strengthen the harbour wall and had obtained from the ministry
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My point is that often the smaller harbours need a simple administrative system to cope with this sort of thing. If the MMO is going to represent a genuine one-stop shop and the provisions of the Harbours Act are not going to apply, let us be open about it. We share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, and we look forward to the Minister’s response. In a sense we, too, are probing, but perhaps from a slightly different direction.
Lord Davies of Oldham: On that latter point, it is difficult to devise a strategy which copes with the requirements of the film industry over a limited period of time with regard to harbour walls. I have to confess that I have no specific notes on that point, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, would expect.
The changes that would result from these two clauses have been welcomed by industry and are part of our efforts towards better regulation in the marine environment. They will reduce the administrative burden on the developer, the regulator and the consultee alike, and help to prevent delays in obtaining regulatory approval for a harbour or offshore energy generation development.
I shall defend the clauses by explaining more specifically how they work. Clause 75 enables an application for a harbour order under the Harbours Act 1964 and an application for a marine licence to be considered together through the same special procedure if they relate to the same activity or works. Clause 76 makes similar provision for offshore generating stations that require consent under Section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989 and a marine licence.
The special procedure will be the procedure outlined in either the Harbours Act 1964 or the Electricity Act 1989, but modified as necessary to take full account of the concerns of the Bill—that is, the marine licensing regime’s requirements—by an order under subsection (6). The special procedure will be activated at the discretion of the harbour order or generating station authority. In the event that the Marine Management Organisation is the harbour order authority or generating station authority and the Welsh Ministers the marine licensing authority, the special procedure could be activated only with the agreement of the Welsh Ministers. In those instances the MMO will issue a notice to the applicant to that effect.
Subsections (6) to (8) of Clauses 75 and 76 give the Secretary of State the power, by order, to modify the procedural provisions of the Harbours Act and the Electricity Act as they relate to the special procedure. I want to be clear about what the order will do; it will
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Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, the marine licensing authority will still need to have regard to the need to protect the environment and human health and prevent interference with other uses of the sea, just as with any other marine licence determination. I emphasise that it will not reduce the environmental safeguards enshrined in the marine licence.
The end result of the special procedure is both a harbour order—or Section 36 consent—and a marine licence, issued by the relevant authorities that take account of the full range of considerations as set out in each piece of legislation. The marine licence that applies is enforceable just as much as a marine licence issued under the ordinary procedure that we have described in Clauses 64 to 68. With these two clauses we are seeking to reduce the regulatory burden in the marine environment. At the moment, a port could require a Food and Environment Protection Act licence, consent under the Coast Protection Act and a harbour order from two—or, in Wales, three—different bodies. Under the proposals in Clauses 75 and 76, however, the same works can undergo the full regulatory processes in one clearly understood procedure and to one timescale. It is a big step towards enabling a joined-up, holistic consideration of developments with environmental, navigation and socio-economic factors considered in the round at the same time.
That is the justification for this procedure. I recognise the noble Lord’s anxieties, but he will appreciate that industry seems to be satisfied with the arrangements we are making. They provide essential safeguards with regard to the marine position and the crucial aspects of the protection of the marine environment while creating, out of the two Acts that otherwise govern these authorities, one procedure that is clearly understood and can be implemented. I appreciate the concern about these clauses, but I hope that noble Lords will recognise that this is driven by an attempt to create a straightforward and relatively simple process by which we can deal with these issues and bring together one clear regulatory step and thereby reduce the regulatory burdens on industry. That is the basis on which I hope the noble Lord will feel able to accept the clauses and withdraw his objection.
Lord Bridges: I welcome what the Minister has just said about the protection of the marine environment in this clause. I referred at Second Reading to the anxieties that we have about certain offshore things that occur without any governmental control, in particular the searching for wrecks of historic ships. I hope that the marine environment aspects of this clause can be extended to cover that activity, possibly by introducing some further words to make that clear.
Earl Ferrers: I should like to make a very short intervention, because I am out of my depth over this
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Lord Davies of Oldham: I would join the noble Earl in saying that I was out of my depth if I were not dealing, on the whole, with inshore waters. Therefore, we are not as far out of our depth as we are with other parts of the Bill, which go further out to sea.
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