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The UK will continue to work closely with the Irish—as we have done—to tackle the major issues that face us today, from trafficking and terrorism to
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We have made clear the value that we attach to the political, economic and social benefits which the CTA brings. We are committed to maintaining the CTA and preserving those benefits. But we have reviewed, and we will keep under review, the practical operation of the CTA, to ensure that we maximise protections within it and that our arrangements remain fit for purpose. We committed to review the arrangements of the CTA in the 2007 “Securing the UK Border” strategy and the Security in a Global Hub report from the Cabinet Office, and this stemmed from my reviews in 2007.
5.30 pm
Lord Shutt of Greetland: I have listened quite carefully. If the Minister gets his legislation, what is special about the common travel area? What does it mean any more?
Lord West of Spithead: There will still be considerably greater freedom of movement than there is in moving from nation to nation outside the common travel area. The border will effectively be that around the CTA, which is the bit that we are really strengthening greatly; so there will be a difference. It will be different from flying to and from the US.
Lord Teverson: I do not understand what the difference is between flying from London to Dublin and flying from London to Brussels.
Lord West of Spithead: You will carry exactly the same things with you on the plane, because you have to have a way of identifying yourself. It is based on the principle that, once a person has been granted leave to enter one part, they will not normally require leave to enter another part of it while that leave is extant, and provided they do not leave the CTA, this will not change. That will still stand when they are inside the CTA.
We have now reviewed the arrangements of the CTA and committed to implement a number of key reforms. Clause 46 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill is the first step in taking these reforms forward. We have been talking with the Republic of Ireland about these things.
We are clear that we are not abolishing the CTA. The CTA is based on the principle that once a person has been granted leave to enter one part, they will not normally require leave to enter the UK while that leave is extant and provided they do not leave the CTA. This will not change.
Since 1997, the Republic of Ireland has maintained an immigration control on third country nationals arriving directly from the UK, including flights between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. British and Irish passengers are obliged to satisfy an immigration
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The modest change in the Bill will allow important improvements in our ability to combat illegal immigration, terrorism and wider crime. It should be considered as one aspect of the wider reform of the CTA which will preserve its special nature. Those aims of improving security while preserving the benefits will guide our consideration of any further reforms. We must also recognise the facts of geography. The practical challenges of introducing routine border controls on the land border would entail costs that outweigh any theoretical gain. As with a lot of counterterrorism, you could expend our national wealth on it, and it has to be risk-based. That is not on the agenda.
Some have tried to argue that there is no point in having the new controls on air and sea routes between the Republic and the UK which we propose if they are not replicated at the land border or on journeys from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. But our aim is not uniform and impregnable defences, which are of course unachievable. Our aim is to change the odds and make life significantly more difficult for people who are trafficking, illegal immigrants, other criminals and terrorists. Variable, selective and intelligence-led action can be particularly effective in doing that; we know that historically. CTA reform needs to be considered together with all the other things we are doing to strengthen our border and immigration systems both now and in the next few years.
The e-Borders programme is particularly relevant as it will be the platform used to collect data. The platform will collect and analyse passenger, service and crew data provided by air, sea and rail carriers in respect of all international journeys to and from the United Kingdom in advance of travel. That will allow resources to be targeted on those intending harm to the UK or to deceive the UK authorities, while enabling the majority of bona fide passengers to continue their journey with minimal disruption. The e-Borders platform will receive and process travel document information for 100 per cent of passenger and crew movements by March 2014. Under e-Borders, it is the responsibility of carriers to submit passenger information via pre-defined interfaces to the operations centre in advance of travel.
The legislation will mean that passengers on air and sea journeys from the Republic of Ireland to the UK will need to hold travel documents that satisfactorily establish identity and nationality so that carriers may discharge their legal responsibility to transmit valid passenger data, regardless of whether an immigration control is being exercised on that particular route at that time.
Outside the CTA reforms we are also considering other changes. Under Section 14 of the Police and Justice Act 2006, the police have the power to require carriers to provide passenger data on specified domestic air and sea routes. That power could be extended to
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The Police Service of Northern Ireland and other UK police forces would then be able to use data collected to support intelligence-led interventions to counter terrorism and tackle serious and organised crime such as trafficking.
The Government have yet to complete consideration of when the 2006 power to capture data on Northern Ireland-Great Britain routes would be introduced. We intend to consult in the spring, with the consequent secondary legislation—for affirmative action—being taken forward in autumn 2009.
I was asked many questions and will address some of them now. The Irish are fully supportive of our reform plans. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked whether that means that we do not trust them. I would put it the other way, because the Irish are very keen on receiving the data from us: on that basis, perhaps they do not trust us. Let us put it differently: we both want to be absolutely certain what movement is happening because some of the bad guys are coming from us, from Northern Ireland to the Republic. The programme is there to obtain a handle on how bad they are and what they are doing.
The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, asked whether the plans had been discussed with the Council of the Isles. My right honourable friend Phil Woolas has written to the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body and the British-Irish Council about our proposals.
I think I have covered why we were operating a different policy on the Republic of Ireland and Crown dependencies routes. The Republic of Ireland operates its own separate immigration control and the Crown dependencies are in practice very closely aligned and operationally integrated with those of the UK. Of course, international routes into the Crown dependencies are very limited.
On the Crown dependency-to-UK route, we will increase the frequency of intelligence-led controls and we will not introduce fixed or routine controls or a document requirement to come from there. We have been in negotiation with the Crown dependencies. All I can assume is that this was not quite what they had expected to come out of the prolonged negotiations and we must have more discussions with them.
On consistency with Ireland’s approach, I have already mentioned that since 1997 the Republic has maintained immigration control on third-country nationals.
In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, the impact statement considers all impacts of public, private and third sectors. I have a very comprehensive breakdown of the costs and so on, and perhaps I may write to her and others who are interested in seeing them.
There will be an impact on terrorism—I mean tourism. I certainly hope that there is an impact on terrorism because that is the whole point of doing the bloody
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If there are any questions that I have not covered, perhaps noble Lords will get back to me and I shall try to respond to them in writing on the specific points. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised the question of Schengen. As I said, there is no intention of our being part of that or of going in that direction at the moment. I think that we have more effective and secure borders because we are not part of it, and that is a good thing, bearing in mind some of the risks that there have been in the past.
As I said, I do not regard the decisions on Clause 46 to be consequential on a decision on the amendments, and I should be very grateful if the noble Baroness would withdraw the amendment.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: Perhaps I may make a brief intervention. I have taken an interest in the subject of security amid these islands and have alluded to it during this Committee stage. I did not speak to the amendments moved by my noble friend Lady Hanham because I realised the Government’s motivation behind this clause and therefore gave them the benefit of the doubt until I had heard their case.
However, I make one small warning on a matter which the noble Lord mentioned in his concluding remarks, and that relates to the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body. It was founded in 1990, arising out of the Anglo-Irish agreement, and the unionists were not prepared to join it because that was its origin. My noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater, who had been Secretary of State in Northern Ireland at the time that the agreement was signed in 1985, served on the body from 1992 to 1997, when I took his place and served until 2007.
The body has been an outstanding success in improving relations and reducing suspicions between Members of this Parliament and Members of the Dáil. After the Belfast agreement, we were joined by elected representatives from the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. I understand that the unionists are now to join the body, which is a good index of improved relations within Northern Ireland, but ironically it occurs at the very moment when the body is wondering what its purpose will be from now on. At least in the short term, I congratulate the Government on having given a raison d’être to the body, which is shortly to meet for one of its semi-annual plenary sessions in County Donegal—a meeting which may well occur before this Bill concludes its passage through this House. The body meets alternately between the Republic and Great Britain.
The one cautionary word that I utter is that, if this Parliament has had difficulty in knowing what the Government are about, it may well be that, when the
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Baroness Hanham: I thank my noble friend for that helpful intervention. I feel very inadequate as he has a great deal more experience of Northern Ireland than probably many of us here today, except those who live there. I am grateful to him.
I have two questions. I tell the Minister now that I shall withdraw the amendment but I shall come back to it on Report because I think that there are still too many issues outstanding here. At least two of those concern the amount of consultation that has taken place. The Minister says that there has been a great deal of consultation with the Government of the Republic of Ireland, who are in favour of it, and I have nothing that gainsays that. However, I am a little perturbed when he says that he feels that they should probably talk to the Council of the Isles to try to reassure it about what is being proposed. It ought to have been reassured before the measure was put forward—it is too late. Our information is that the consultation process with the islands was not adequate. I hope that by indicating now that I will come back to this, perhaps by the time we get to Report the Minister will have been able to ensure that at least proper discussions have been undertaken with the island authorities so that they are clear and support what is being done in their name.
I am also interested that the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body will be discussing this in a month’s time. Presumably the group has not discussed it before. Again, one would have thought it to be a major body to give consideration to the issue.
There is concern about the Government’s proposals. The Minister said that the common travel area is not being dismantled but it depends how you define the common travel area. If it is to give unfettered movement between one country or countries and another, clearly that is being put in jeopardy by these proposals. The Minister has said a great deal about the bad guys; there have always been problems within Ireland and elsewhere and difficulties with people coming into this country. Indeed, I remember the Troubles very well and the problems there, but at that time there was still pretty much freedom of movement. I am not convinced that the measures are justified. It would be helpful to have a little more idea of how deep the consultations have been, particularly with the islands, and perhaps for us to have some idea of what the Irish Government feel, although the Minister said that they were in favour. For today’s purposes, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendments 108B to 108D not moved.
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Clause 47: Restriction on studies
108E: Clause 47, page 39, line 32, at beginning insert “where leave is granted for the purpose of studies in the United Kingdom,”
Baroness Hanham: We now move to the other “stray” clause in the Bill. I shall also be speaking to Amendments 109 to 110A, and Clause 47 stand part is included in the group so that we can have a wider discussion on what is proposed.
I oppose the clause as it stands as there are not enough safeguards on what the Government are doing, so I shall give a brief outline of each amendment. Amendment 108E would restrict the power to impose a condition regarding studies so that it could be imposed only on migrants who had been given leave for the purposes of study rather than anyone with limited leave to enter or remain. Amendment 109, which is a probing amendment, would limit the condition on studies that could be imposed on someone with limited leave to enter or remain, thereby allowing the imposition of a condition that tied the person to study at a particular institute. Amendment 110 would require the Secretary of State to consider immediately any application to vary a condition regarding studies, and Amendment 110A would ensure that these conditions could not be imposed retrospectively.
The amendments would improve the clause and assist with the intention by ensuring that the scope of the power properly matched its stated intention. In other words, it would allow the permission granted to overseas students to be linked to the particular institution that sponsors them under the points system.
When the Minister replies, will he confirm that if a student wishes to change a course within his sponsored institution, he will be able to do so without having to appeal again or make a new application to the UK Border Agency? Clause 47 appears to allow for any condition to be imposed restricting the studies of anyone with limited leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom. This could include restrictions that would tie a foreign student to a particular institution and require it to inform the UK Border Agency of a wish to change institution for the purposes of sponsorship and regulation of the points-based system. It could also include restrictions on any migrant with limited leave to remain or enter, including those who are undertaking, or wish to undertake, studies, who are not here as foreign students under the point-based system, migrant workers, those joining partners or other family members and refugees.
I should like to see Clause 47 work effectively and to its purpose. For that, students must be sure of where they stand—hence our amendment on retrospectivity. They must be sure that in any dealings they have with the Home Office if they wish to change their studies within an institution—I hope the Minister will tell me that that is not necessary—or to change institution, it will deal with those applications speedily and efficiently. I have previously raised concerns that a student can get stuck on a course that is wrong for him
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The Minister will recognise, as we do, that the huge majority of overseas students come here to study and, by doing so, to enhance their own learning, skills and abilities and that the reputation of this country relies, to some extent, on their view of what happens when they come here. Many of them bring with them, as they have to, financial assistance to those institutions in the form of substantial fees. We must get right the balance between the need to ensure that people coming to this country to study are bona fide and making it impossible for them to change their course if they are here. If someone suddenly finds that he does not want to be a consultant engineer but a doctor, we must make clear that that can happen, the process by which it can happen and the fact that it can be done in a timescale which will enable him to move from one course or position to another within the ambit of time that would enable him not to get left behind for too long.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I declare an interest as a retired academic, although I still have a number of PhD students, some of whom have not completed their PhDs in the requisite preferred three-year period. Happily, at the moment, I have none from outside the European Union, but several of my colleagues at the London School of Economics do. I recognise this clause as an old friend. We have been through this over many years, and my first question has to be whether the Government have fully consulted Universities UK and whether Universities UK has expressed itself happy with this. On previous occasions over at least the past 10 years, we have had problems when those in Government concerned with higher education have taken one view and those in the Home Office concerned with stopping overstayers have taken an entirely different view, and it has been clear that there has not been a coherent government position. I hope that that is not the case now.
We recognise that there is a problem with overstayers. Nevertheless, we also recognise that, given the nature of research degrees and the quality of research in this country, it is very difficult to tell people that they will spend only three years examining a particular problem. Very often, when you start out on a research degree, it is very difficult to say how long it will take. Over the years, we have seen limitations on how long people are allowed to enter for and rising costs for renewing their visas when the time comes. We are putting obstacles in front of bright young people who want to study in Britain.
Many of us have argued that the answer had to be in the registration of institutions since, as I have understood on several occasions, the problem has been most acute with fly-by-night colleges or second-floor colleges setting themselves up as the London college of whatever it is that attracts people in from obscure parts of the world. It would have been, and remains, relatively easy to sort out which are genuine institutions of further and higher education and which are fly-by-night operations. I am conscious, however, that it is not
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I therefore register the unhappiness throughout the higher education sector at this whole process and would like reassurance that there has been very full consultation in government with what I think we are now supposed to call DIUS—no doubt it will have a different name in a couple of months—and effective consultation with Universities UK.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I declare an interest on behalf of Cardiff University and its courses and as a co-opted member of the Medical Schools Council. I apologise to the Committee for not contributing at Second Reading; there was a clash of timing with other legislation.
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