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I shall speak first to my amendment and then respond to the noble Baroness’s amendments. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has tabled three amendments in this group. In speaking to my Amendment 160D, I will also address Amendment 161 as it is so closely tied to it.
By their nature, leaders’ boards will be comprised of local authorities and I can certainly see the logic of applying the provisions of the Local Government Act to their activities. It is a very important principle and the noble Baroness mounted a very powerful case for it. Therefore, I am proposing Amendment 160D, which applies Part 5A of the Local Government Act 1972 to leaders’ boards only, and would allow for it to be applied through regulations with such modifications as the Secretary of State considers necessary or expedient. This is based on legal advice that the provisions of Part 5A will not work properly if they are simply applied without modification in the manner proposed by Amendment 161. Some aspects of Part 5A are specific to local authorities and cannot sensibly be applied to leaders’ boards.
I have tabled Amendment 160D because I think it provides an appropriate way to proceed and is preferable, as I say, to the approach in Amendment 161, which might lead to unworkable provisions. I will happily respond to Amendments 162 and 163 after the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has spoken.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for taking the matter on board and for her generous comments. I am happy to see Amendment 160D. I take it that the words “necessary or expedient” are benign and merely ensure that the arrangements work appropriately. They could be read differently but I shall choose not to do so.
My first amendment in the group covers leaders’ boards. I accept that the Local Government Act needs tweaking to apply to the leaders’ boards arrangements. My second and third amendments in the group would apply the same provisions on access to meetings, documents and information to responsible regional authorities—that is, the leaders’ boards and RDAs acting together—and to RDAs separately. I have no doubt that regional development agencies are not homogenous and do not all operate in precisely the
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“That approach has worked well in the past in involving communities. If we went further, I believe that we would end up with more bureaucracy. We would have inflexibility and not necessarily greater transparency”.—[Official Report, 9/2/09; col. GC 312.]
I simply disagree with her on that point. It seems to me from my observation of some of the RDAs that there is a presumption of confidentiality rather than a presumption of openness, and it is hard not to feel that the role of the RDAs, in the way that matters are dealt with, is growing. Transparency and the perception of propriety—I am not making allegations of impropriety—are hugely important. I had little expectation that we would convince the Government of this. Indeed, RDAs are not bodies that now fall within the department of the noble Baroness, and I dare say that there is a different culture in different departments in government.
The “responsible regional authority” seems to me to be a distinct entity in the way in which it is described—RDAs and local leaders’ boards acting jointly—and it should follow the local authority model, or the local authority model as applied through the Minister’s amendment, rather than the model applied by the regional development agency. That was why I tabled that amendment, which comes perhaps somewhere in the middle of the other two.
Baroness Andrews: My Lords, from what she has said, I do not think that I am going to persuade the noble Baroness. I shall have to repeat a little of what I said in Committee about the RDAs.
The RDAs are committed to openness. They are subject to freedom of information and the model publication scheme for NDPBs, which has been produced by the Information Commissioner. That means that they make public the roles and responsibilities of senior staff, minutes of meetings, details of major policy proposals and decisions, as well as information on many other matters. They consult on their corporate plans, which are published. A considerable amount of material is available on their websites. We believe that all this creates a high level of public access to RDA matters without compromising their actions and decisions. RDAs regularly deal with commercially confidential and sensitive information, and there is a different set of considerations in relation to the interests that they are providing for.
Amendment 163 addresses joint working, and I am sympathetic to the challenge. This is not straightforward, because leaders’ boards and RDAs are very different bodies, as the noble Baroness agreed. Not only that, but their joint working arrangements, as the responsible regional authorities, are yet to be agreed and will vary between regions. Inventing a blanket provision on access to information that was not intended for these circumstances carries a risk of, at least, being inappropriate and, at worst, having unintended consequences for RDAs.
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However, the noble Baroness raised some important points on joint working, and I have not been able to come back with a solution. I will consider the process further with a view to a possible amendment in the other place. I would wish to be satisfied that provisions such as public access to meetings set out in Part 5A could usefully also be applied to joint meetings that the leaders’ boards have with RDAs, while safeguarding the particular interests of the RDAs.
Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving way. When she is considering that, will she also consider another point about joint boards? Local authority members are subject to the local authority code of conduct and, if they fail to meet the standards, it is looked at by the local standards board or the national standards board. I am not sure that applies to the RDAs. It is one of the things that local authority members feel strongly about. If the noble Baroness is looking at openness and transparency, it might be worth looking at a code of conduct as well.
Baroness Andrews: My Lords, I do not have an answer to that. There may be something like a code of conduct, but I simply do not know. I am afraid that I will have to write to the noble Baroness, although it will be on the record that she would appreciate further work on a code of conduct.
I hope that with that promise the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, will feel that she has at least reached two-thirds of the way towards the goal she set herself—or perhaps half way.
Clause 69 : Responsible regional authorities
Amendments 161 to 163 not moved.
Clause 70 : Review and revision by responsible regional authorities
Clause 71 : Community involvement
Clause 74 : Approval of revision by Secretary of State
Amendments 164B to 164F not moved.
164G: Clause 74, page 54, line 14, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “responsible regional authorities”
Clause 75 : Reserve powers of Secretary of State
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Amendments 164K to 165 not moved.
166: After Clause 79, insert the following new Clause—
“Delegation by regional development agencies
After section 6A of the Regional Development Agencies Act 1998 (c. 45) (delegation of functions to the Mayor of London and the London Development Agency) insert—
“6B Delegation of functions by regional development agencies
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, a regional development agency shall have power to arrange for the discharge of any of their functions by a local authority within their area, or jointly by a group of local authorities within that area.
(2) For the purposes of this section, a “function” shall include any part of a function, or any function or part of a function which is exercisable only in relation to part of the area of a local authority.
(3) For the purposes specified in section 4(1) of this Act, the functions to which subsection (1) refers include, but are not limited to, the responsibilities of a regional development agency for—
(a) the determination of the allocation of funding to other persons or bodies, whether by grant, loan or other means, within a local or sub-regional area;
(b) the making of expenditure under an expenditure programme in relation to a local or sub-regional area;
(c) the prioritisation and delivery of investments at local or sub-regional level;
(d) the management of an expenditure programme forming part of the single programme budget of the agency, in relation to a local or sub-regional area, in accordance with any overall strategy determined by the agency.
(4) The power to make a delegation under subsection (1) includes, but is not limited to, power to make such a delegation to a local authority or authorities in accordance with one or more of the following expenditure models (or with a variant of such a model, or a combination of such models)—
(a) the allocation of funds to a partnership, of which the agency is a member, and delegation of the power by agreement to make, and implement, decisions on behalf of the partnership as to the expenditure of those funds, or their allocation to a third party;
(b) the allocation of funds, and delegation of the power to make and implement decisions as to their expenditure, to one or more local authorities, or to a partnership of one of more such authorities with one or more other persons or bodies, in accordance with a service level agreement or contract made by the agency with the authority or authorities, or partnership, as the case may be;
(c) the transfer to one or more local authorities, or to a partnership of one or more such authorities with one or more other persons or bodies, of funds for the purpose of implementing a programme of investment agreed with the agency; and the delegation of the power to make expenditure of those funds, and to vire the funds between different elements of the programme in order to secure the most efficient use of resources;
(d) the transfer to one or more local authorities, or to a partnership of one or more such authorities with one or more other persons of bodies, of funds for the purpose of implementing a programme of investment agreed with the agency; and the delegation of the power to make expenditure of those funds, and to manage the
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(5) A regional development agency shall, within three months of the coming into force of this section and thereafter at such intervals as the Secretary of State may determine, propose such delegations under this section as it considers appropriate, having regard to its view of the capacity of any local authority in its area to discharge any function concerned, and the desirability of maximising the delegation of functions of the types referred to in subsection (3) to local authorities.
(6) Whether or not a regional development agency has made proposals under subsection (5), the Secretary of State shall have power to direct an agency to make such delegations as he may determine, after taking into account any representations made to him by any local authority in the area concerned, or by the agency.
(7) Two or more local authorities to which any function has been delegated under this section may arrange for it to be discharged by them jointly.
(8) A local authority to which a function has been delegated under this section may arrange for it to be discharged by a committee or sub-committee, or by an officer of the authority.
(9) Any enactment relating to a function which has been delegated under this section, or to the authority or authorities by whom, or to any area in respect of which, it is to be discharged, shall have effect subject to all necessary modifications in its application in relation to that function and to the authority or authorities by whom, or to any area in respect of which, it is to be discharged.
(10) References in this section to the discharge of any of the functions of a regional development agency include references to the doing of anything which is expedient for the purposes specified in section 4(1) of this Act, or for purposes incidental thereto.””
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, we discussed this amendment in Committee. It is supported by the Local Government Association and members of all parties and I feel very strongly that it should be part of this legislation. When the White Paper was published, there was much that we did not see as democratic in the proposed legislation. The White Paper suggested that RDAs could delegate money to local authorities for particular projects.
I do not like to mention my own county, which I often do. Noble Lords may laugh, but as I live in it every day, it is useful to give examples from it. We have three development areas. Two major ones are the Thames Gateway and the Haven Gateway and we have a development area in the M11 corridor. As everyone will know, because I am always talking about it, I like to see things done, rather than to have lots of meetings and bureaucracy. With development areas, RDAs and all sorts of other groupings, you can meet and talk about things for ever, but not do anything. That is a part of governance that I dislike intensely. I want to improve the lot of the people in my county and in the country. I want things to happen with money that is there.
The noble Baroness will know, because she has been there, that Jaywick is a very deprived area in Essex, which is a wealthy county. Jaywick in Tendring is adjacent to Clacton and is one of the most deprived areas of the UK. The new chief executive of the RDA is a very positive lady and we worked very much together on whether she might delegate some money to the projects that we are developing there. It might have gone to Thames Gateway, but we want to move
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There are defects in the legislation but there was a piece of it that I liked because I could see things happening. However, that has now been removed and RDAs cannot delegate money to local authorities. Local authorities are democratic bodies, and the amendment refers to the allocation of funds to partnerships of local authorities. In Committee, the noble Baroness said that that could happen, but I am assured that the RDA has to be accountable for the money that it spends and therefore will have to spend that money itself. Because of that, I can see some projects not happening or being delayed. Although there is never enough of it, I like to see the money that the Government make available spent at the coal-face. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has just walked in. He will know Jaywick very well because he originated not very far from there. I beg to move.
9.30 pm
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, my noble friend and I had added our names to what I might describe as the predecessor amendment, which was shorter and possibly sweeter than this one. Following the comments about possible differences between government departments, my noble friend Lord Tope said:
“Long years in your Lordships’ House have taught me that it is conceptually impossible for two government departments to make contradictory comments”.—[Official Report, 24/2/09; col. GC 81.]
My noble friend, by definition, is slightly older, but in any event I do not think that his wisdom can be improved on.
During the exchange on the earlier amendment concerning delegation, the Minister made a number of comments that it is worth picking up on briefly. She said that the best outcomes,
but delegation is different. She talked about a,
However, as I understand it, that is a responsibility for the strategy. I was puzzled by a comment from the Minister shortly after that. She talked about the RDAs’,
I am not entirely clear how the different functions fit together here. The delegation concerns RDA functions more widely than under this Bill. The Minister also talked about preserving the flexibility of RDA budgets so that they can,
- “if necessary, be flexed to address economic imperatives”.—[Official Report, 24/2/09; cols. GC 83-84.]
That sentence worries me quite a lot. I believe that RDAs have budgets on a year-by-year basis. I may be wrong about that but I think that, if they do not spend by the end of the year what they were planning to spend, they lose the opportunity to do so. However,
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Having said that, I have written in quite a number of places next to the amendment the word “How”. How are regulations needed? How will this operate, and so on? I think that there would be a need for regulations if this amendment or anything like it were agreed. However, the general underlying point is one with which we absolutely agree. Delegation can be a delicate and difficult matter but local authorities have their fingers on the pulse. They have a wider remit than the RDAs, and that is an advantage. They have a more holistic approach and, above all, they are elected. Although I could pick holes in the amendment, we support the principle. If the noble Lord takes this through the Lobbies this evening, we will support him.
Lord Smith of Leigh: My Lords, despite the lateness of the hour and the fact that tonight England is playing football, which I would rather be watching, I might as well make a contribution, particularly in view of my intervention in Grand Committee. That was on EPBs but the principle is the same.
I need to remind noble Lords of my interest. I am now a member of the Northwest Regional Development Agency as well as being leader of Wigan and of the Association of Greater Manchester Authorities. I certainly believe that devolution is important and, if the Government are to achieve what they want in Parts 5 and 6 of the Bill, there needs to be devolution from government departments and agencies. I was intrigued to hear what was said about the amendment to see whether it would achieve what the noble Lord thought.
We ought to apply a number of key tests. Obviously we are not just pepper-potting money around. Would the amendment allow for a contribution to a regional strategy, which is agreed between local authorities and the RDA, so that they did not simply give money away? Do local authorities have the capacity to deal with some of the issues? That is not always the case; it is obviously not the case in the county of the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, but small district authorities may not have the capacity to deal with some of these bigger issues. Would the amendment promote partnership working between local authorities and other agencies? That is important. The delegation from the north-west—before my time—to Liverpool helped to achieve all the objectives around the Capital of Culture year.
I am struggling with this. If the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, were in his place, I would ask how the NWDA would prioritise. As has been said, there is never enough money to go round everywhere. How would it prioritise between a project in Pendle and one in Wigan? There is no guidance in the amendment. How would local authorities be accountable for the money? We must ask those questions.
I noticed today that PwC produced a report on RDAs showing that, for every pound that the RDAs spend, £4.50 is generated within the regional economy. They are doing a good job and we need to make sure that that continues. I did not get enough clear answers from the noble Lord. I want greater clarity on devolution, but I do not think that the amendment hits the mark.
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Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the reasons for the amendment, but there is a problem. My noble friend asked what RDAs do at the end of the year when they have money. I can tell her; they say to the council, “If you do X, you can have this money”. That has happened to us, although I should say that the interest that I declared at the beginning of the Bill’s passage is no longer the case. As of midnight last night I am no longer a Berwick borough councillor because the council has been abolished. However, in my experience on that council, that was precisely what happened. There is an issue that we all recognise about how RDAs and local councils work together, how we get accountability and how the RDAs delegate some of their money down to local authorities. I do not necessarily think that the amendment has it quite right, but this is something that we must consider seriously. It is not terribly satisfactory for the money available at the end of the year to be spent in that way.
Lord Teverson: My Lords, I greatly like and appreciate the theme of this amendment. One of the issues in the south-west has been decisions for European funding, which, for Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, used to be taken by the government offices, which were based in Plymouth, outside the area. They are now taken primarily by the RDA, which is based in Exeter. That is not a good principle and it does not reflect properly how these funds were meant to be administered, although the last programme was successful.
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