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On the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, we intend there to be not micromanagement but simply an appropriate check and balance on how the organisation might wish to go on with the terms and conditions that the schedule lays out. In view of recent events relating to salaries paid in quangos, while one wants to avoid micromanagement, one wishes to ensure appropriate accountability. The noble Baroness should not read anything more than that into it.
I may have been too quick to shake my head when my noble friend said that I had used the word “opinion”. I apologise to him; I thought that he was referring to Amendment 9, whereas I used the word in relation to Amendment 18. However, I want to reassure him that that is not any old opinion but one that has been expressed after consideration of the evidence. I was speaking about opinion in that context, rather than saying, as he might have inferred, that any old opinion from anybody might have equal weight.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has a great deal of experience and has raised an important matter about how green planning integrates with other development plans, including those on the land. She referred to the overlap. I hope to reassure her that, during the detailed process of developing marine plans, plan authorities will be under a legal obligation to secure compatibility with other plans that overlap, are adjacent to or have some relevance to marine plans—including river basin and shoreline management plans and terrestrial plans—thereby facilitating integration. That will, clearly, require the plan authorities to work with other regulators, planning bodies and Administrations.
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We have already discussed devolution. Just as I have overall been encouraged by the approach taken by the devolved Administrations wishing to make this work together in an area that is partly the responsibility of the UK Government and partly the responsibility of the devolved Administrations, I have been encouraged, too, by the approach of local authorities, which are equally committed to making this work. However, I take the noble Baroness’s point and I will make sure that this is given due consideration within my department and CLG. We will explore it further with the Local Government Association.
4.30 pm
I turn to the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. Perhaps I may say how relieved we are that, although he has ceased to be chairman of one body, he is now chairman of the Plymouth Marine Sciences Partnership. I pay tribute to the case that he made in Committee about science. He says that he is reassured that we see science as one of the underlying principles of sustainable development. I should also make it clear that we believe that the MMO needs to pursue an evidence-based approach to all its decision-making. As a decision-maker, the MMO is under a duty to take into account all relevant facts and matters, including those listed in new subsection (1B). It must also attach the appropriate weight to the different facts and matters taken into account.
The type of evidence that the MMO will need to take into account will depend on the individual circumstances of each case and we have expanded on the kinds of matters that may be taken into account in Amendment 9. This should not be seen as an exhaustive list. Clearly, what is relevant in any particular case must be for the MMO to determine. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, asked the point of stipulating these matters and what weight they should be given. The fact is that putting these considerations in the Bill must in itself clearly give significant weight. The problem in the wording of the noble Lord’s amendment is that not everything will be relevant in every case. Our worry is about imposing a disproportionately onerous obligation on the MMO.
The noble Lord’s second point was about the use of the word “appropriate” as opposed to “relevant” in proposed new paragraph (c). We see our wording as allowing slightly wider discretion to cover anything that the MMO might take into account. Something might be of relevance, but of peripheral relevance, and might not be appropriate. We do not think that the distinction between the terms indicates a significant difference of approach, although I am not sure that I
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Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for what he has said about the general approach to Clause 2, in particular the enhanced role that the Government have now given science in a number of respects, for which the House owes him a great debt of gratitude.
With great respect to the Minister, I suggest that the right approach by the Government to Amendment 9, which I do not think they have got quite right, is to make the distinction between relevance and weight. That is a classic planning approach, as I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, would underline. While I foresee circumstances in which the Government might not wish to give any weight to a relevant matter, to introduce the word “appropriate” simply confuses things. However, he has kindly said—to reassure his own interpretation of Amendment 9, which the Government have advanced—that he will give it further thought between now and Third Reading. I am content to leave the matter for the present.
6: Schedule 1, page 217, line 6, leave out sub-paragraph (3) and insert—
“(3) Sub-paragraph (1) does not—
(a) prevent the MMO from exercising the function itself, or
(b) affect the power of the MMO to authorise an employee of the MMO to carry out functions of the MMO.”
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, in the spirit of the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, on a previous amendment, when he said that the Committee should continue in a productive manner, I am now hopeful that I can bring the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, into this virtuous circle. Amendment 6 is a response to the points that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, made in Committee when he asked how paragraph 20(3) of Schedule 1 was intended to work in practice. He raised this on the first day and I am grateful to him because we said at the time that he had made a significant point, and that we wanted to look again at the paragraph. The result of the Government’s consideration is Amendment 6.
It should now be clear from the government amendment and the revised paragraph 20 that the MMO can indeed authorise a committee, sub-committee, member or employee to exercise any MMO function. The power is capable of repeated exercise, so if the MMO wanted, for example, to authorise a different committee to exercise a function, it could do so under that provision. Sub-paragraph (3) makes it clear that the MMO can still exercise that function itself, or get an employee to do it, notwithstanding the delegation of that function under sub-paragraph (1). In considering
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Lord Greaves: My Lords, I thank the Government for the amendment. If I remember rightly, we discussed this at some inordinate length in Committee, probably late into the night. At the time I thought that I was having great difficulty in getting my point through to the Government, but clearly they were listening. The problem was that, as the paragraph was originally drafted, it was possible to delegate to two different committees at the same time, which could clearly cause confusion. I am very grateful to the Government for looking at it again, and for the common-sense and practical solution that they have found. Well done.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of this government amendment, and to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for being the stimulus for its conception. It all seems to make sense and accords with our approach to the Bill.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am of course grateful to both noble Lords. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that, even late at night, if the Government’s eyes look glazed and it looks as though their ears may not be listening, we always have eyes and ears, particularly for any amendment that he is moving, whatever the time. Here is proof positive.
7: Clause 2, page 2, line 7, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert—
“(a) with the objective of making a contribution to the achievement of sustainable development (see subsections (1A) and (3) to (7)),
(b) taking account of all relevant facts and matters (see subsection (1B)), and
(c) in a manner which is consistent and co-ordinated (see subsection (8)).”
8: Clause 2, page 2, line 12, at end insert—
“(1A) In pursuit of its general objective, the MMO may take any action which it considers necessary or expedient for the purpose of furthering any social, economic or environmental purposes.”
9: Clause 2, page 2, line 12, at end insert—
“(1B) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b), the facts and matters that may be taken into account include each of the following—
(a) scientific evidence, whether available to, or reasonably obtainable by, the MMO;
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(b) other evidence so available or obtainable relating to the social, economic or environmental elements of sustainable development;
(c) such facts or matters not falling within paragraph (a) or (b) as the MMO may consider appropriate.
See also section 23 (powers of MMO in relation to research).”
Amendments 10 and 11 (to Amendment 9) not moved.
12: Clause 2, page 2, line 12, at end insert—
“( ) In pursuit of its general objective, the MMO shall endeavour to work closely with coastal communities.”
Lord Greaves: Amendment 12 picks up on a point that we discussed in Committee which was not very satisfactorily resolved. It concerns the question of the MMO’s relationship with coastal communities. We propose:
“In pursuit of its general objective, the MMO shall endeavour to work closely with coastal communities”.
This was part of a much broader amendment moved in Committee by my noble friend Lord Tyler. I want to thank my noble friend for the work he put into this during the Committee stage on the days when I was not able to be here because I was otherwise engaged on another Bill. My noble friend has departed this life as far as this Bill is concerned and is now active on the Political Parties and Elections Bill. In Committee he said that he hoped the Minister would accept that the amendment would cover a “lacuna in the Bill”. I had to look up the word because I thought it had something to do with the lady of Laguna, but it turned out not to; I think my noble friend just meant that there is a gap. It is very important that the MMO works in close co-operation and, it is hoped, harmony or at least full and frank discussion, with coastal communities.
We have noted several times that the MMO is unusual for a quango or body with a strong environmental element in that it deals with an area where there are no people. Most related organisations cover areas of the land where people live, work and play. That is not so clearly the case with the sea. Clearly, people work and play on and in the sea, but they do not live there permanently—except along the coast. Where the sea meets the land is a crucial element of our discussions on the whole of the marine aspect of the legislation and the work of the MMO. It is extremely important that the MMO should work closely both with those living on the coast and their representatives.
My noble friend made these points as part of a much longer debate that looked at many of the issues covered by the large group of amendments to Clause 2. It is clear from Hansard that he could not get any satisfactory answers, and the reason for tabling a further amendment today is to raise the issue again and hope that we can be given some today. Of course, parts of the Bill refer to different aspects of the work of the MMO as they relate to the coast and coastal communities while other parts, such as those dealing with IFCAs, relate to communities on the coast as
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4.45 pm
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, my name is attached to this amendment. First I declare the interests that I declared in Committee: I am a member of various wildlife trusts, a member of the North Devon Yacht Club and vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks. My husband is a member of the Devon sea fisheries committee and a member of the Environment Agency coastal management group for the Bristol Channel area.
I support what my noble friend said. Having reread the debate in Committee, I think there is a principle that the Government still need to put into the Bill; perhaps the Minister will tell me differently. The inshore sea area that the MMO will be responsible for—I think the far offshore area will be far less contentious—can be likened to common land. Some people have an economic interest in it, while some have an environmental interest and there is no owner, except that the Crown Estate owns the seabed. However, those coastal communities have, in many cases, worked over years to find a way forward. I am thinking, as the Minister knows, of estuary forums, where competing interests have had to be dealt with, some of which we discussed in Committee, such as recreational interests, say, and shellfish interests. Unless this is recognised in the Bill, all the positive work that coastal communities have done in balancing those different interests in the marine area will be lost. Unless the MMO is brought into that work very fundamentally, in statute, it will be an enormous backward step and those interests could start to compete with each other again. That will send different views to the MMO, making its life much more difficult. That is why I feel strongly that we should recognise the importance not of the statutory bodies, which we will talk about later—my noble friend Lady Hamwee will talk, for example, about the role of statutory local authorities—but of the more ephemeral idea of coastal communities, to which this amendment refers.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, makes an understandable point by moving this amendment and the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, has the same relevance. Much of what the MMO seeks to achieve is, of course, of great interest to coastal communities, whether we are talking about harbours, fishing or seaside leisure. The prosperity of these communities will depend on them having good liaison and dialogue with the MMO. So obvious is this, however, that I am not sure that it is a necessary element to include at this early stage of the Bill—there are places later in the Bill where it may be more relevant.
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for allowing us to debate what might be described as coastal communities. I recall the debate in Committee and the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. When we were in Committee, we had a clash with the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill and we now have a clash with the Political Parties and Elections Bill. At one time I thought I might, as a Ministry of Justice Minister, be taking it through, but we have moved on to higher things with the marine Bill.
Rather like the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, I have no argument with noble Lords in their emphasis on the importance of coastal communities. I agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, when he talked about the need for harmony but, if you cannot have harmony, at least have a full and frank debate. I agree with his point about the interface between the people living along the coast, the sea itself and the interests of people living in coastal areas. My concern is the implications of putting this in the Bill. It is the “list” argument: if you put something in legislation, you are in danger of excluding other interests. The amendment would amend the critically important Clause 2. The government amendments that we have agreed with the support of the House are, in a sense, the high-level duties and objectives. It would not be appropriate to add “endeavour to work closely with coastal communities”.
It is, however, relevant to ask me how the MMO intends to work with the communities that noble Lords have spoken so eloquently about. Noble Lords will be aware of the vision for coastal management that my department has published recently entitled A Strategy for Promoting an Integrated Approach to the Management of Coastal Areas in England. The strategy makes it clear that we place a great deal of emphasis on the need to empower coastal communities. We want them to have a sense of ownership and stewardship within marine and coastal areas, and we think that that will greatly assist the MMO in the delivery of its functions and the overall objective of making a contribution to sustainable development. We think that marine planning will offer new opportunities for coastal regulators and communities to have a say in the way the marine environment is managed in the same way that they input now into land planning on the coast. Further, the statement of public participation issued by the MMO at the outset of development of each marine plan, which we might debate again, sets out how it intends to involve stakeholders and local communities at each stage. That will ensure that those with an interest will be clear about the process, decide what involvement they want to have and be able to become appropriately involved.
I have no disagreement with noble Lords in their desire to ensure that coastal communities have a major input into the deliberations of the MMO and the way it works, but we have great reservations about singling out coastal communities and putting them into the Bill in Clause 2 in the way that the noble Lord has suggested.
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Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am grateful for some of the things the Minister said and his commitments about how coastal communities will be involved. I was surprised by his use of the “list” argument. I am not sure which other items he thinks might be in the list. We are talking about the people who live in the coastal regions and along the coast. I do not consider that those people are just part of a list; they are pretty fundamental. I do not think that that argument applies; I am proposing not a list but something fundamental about the MMO’s objectives and how it carries them out. It should work closely with coastal communities.
The Minister said that this part of the Bill is about high-level duties. Working with coastal communities is a high-level duty. I am not saying that this amendment is perfect; if the Government do not like the words, I would be delighted if they went away and produced their own. Words are words. What matters is the meaning underneath those words, and that is what I am putting forward today.
I agree that the vision for coastal management—the integrated strategy—is an interesting, positive and hopeful document. I agree very much that there should be a sense of ownership and stewardship by coastal communities of what the Marine Management Organisation is doing in the inshore waters that affect them. That is why we are proposing this amendment. I do not understand why the Minister is resisting it being in the Bill since he is actually saying that he agrees with the intention behind it in almost every respect. I should like to test the opinion of the House.
4.55 pm
Division on Amendment 12 called. Division called off after three minutes due to lack of support for the Contentswhen the Question was put a second time.
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