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House of Lords

Thursday, 7 May 2009.

11 am

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Salisbury.

Energy: Nabucco Pipeline

Question

11.06 am

Asked By Baroness Rawlings

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their stance on the Nabucco pipeline.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Government strongly support the development of the southern corridor, which would bring gas from the Caspian, via Turkey, into Europe. This would increase UK and EU energy security by diversifying both sources and routes of gas supply. The Nabucco gas pipeline has the potential to form a key part of the southern corridor and, as such, it has the Government’s strong support.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for his very positive Answer. The European Parliament voted yesterday to designate €5 billion to environmental projects. Some €200 million will go to the Nabucco pipeline, importing gas from the Caspian, bypassing Russia. Given that in 2005 we became a net gas importer and by 2006 we had a net deficit in oil, will the Government be supporting this European Parliament proposal in Council?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Government have not reached a position on that yet but, as the noble Baroness will have interpreted from my opening statement, we are very much in favour of the Nabucco development and therefore welcome the fact that the European Parliament has commented on it favourably. We understand that in fact there is an element of underspend in aspects of the European budget, which could effectively be deployed to this immensely worthwhile and important project.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, will the Minister expand a little on what the Government mean by “strongly support”? Are we taking action with other member Governments in the European Union to ensure that this project is carried through to fulfilment, or does it just amount to a tick in an official’s ministerial comments box without the Government doing anything to build an active coalition in the EU to make sure that the pipeline goes ahead?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Government are doing a great deal more than an active tick. The noble Lord will appreciate that some delicate negotiations are to take place among countries which supply the gas and through which the pipeline will go. I have only to mention that Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan are all involved to indicate that this is not a straightforward exercise, as if any pipeline crossing a number of countries would be straightforward. Therefore, there is considerable

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Foreign Office activity with the European Union to ensure that we get effective action. Of course, the pipeline will be a commercial project and the resources will come from commercial companies, but the House will be reassured to hear that at least one British oil company is interested in investing in the pipeline.

Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that in March the European Council earmarked the €200 million that has now been approved by the European Parliament? Does he not also agree that it is likely that the negotiations would be greatly facilitated if the energy chapter in Turkey’s accession negotiations were opened and Turkey were to become a wholehearted supporter of the Nabucco project? The situation is not helped at the moment by the European Union’s foot-dragging on that chapter in the accession negotiations.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord raises the interesting issue of the relationship of Turkey to the European Union and the several significant hurdles that need to be overcome if Turkey is to join the European Community. These are challenging issues. However, there is no doubt that the pipeline will flow through Turkey, and inevitably the Turks are looking on this as an indication of the extent to which they can contribute to the European Union’s economic welfare and, through that, strengthen their position as regards joining. However, the noble Lord will recognise that Turkey does not meet all the tests that will be applied to it before it is able to join the European Union.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the problem is not so much support from European Union members for the project, which has been very vocal in recent times, as finding enough gas to fill the pipeline to make it even remotely viable? That, of course, depends on Russian willingness to see an under-Caspian pipeline from Turkmenistan, and that in turn depends on the attitude of the President of Turkmenistan and the President of Azerbaijan, President Aliyev. All those are highly uncertain prospects, which accounts for the fact that the project keeps slipping down the priority agenda. From our own point of view, given that we are totally, heavily and increasingly dependent on gas, thanks to government dithering over nuclear, in the next 10 years, would it not be much wiser to develop our links with Norway, which has unlimited gas to supply to us, and to develop our own storage systems, import more LNG and fill this dangerous gap which has arisen as a result of the Government’s dismal and ineffective energy policies?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord has given no credence at all to the extent to which we have negotiated with Norway about the supply of gas and the opening of fresh facilities. Nor has he indicated the full extent of the gas supplies that could come from the Caspian Sea: as much as 10 per cent of European needs. It is therefore important that we give considerable support to this project, not least because, as will be recognised after the anxieties last year in the Russian-Ukrainian gas dispute, it is important that we develop other sources. Those are not to be underestimated in their potential.



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Lord Elton: My Lords, does the noble Lord recognise that there are at least three and possibly five taps on which unfriendly presidential hands may be laid in the Nabucco pipeline whereas we are assured of the friendship of our friend and neighbour Norway? Would it not be much better to proceed rapidly with expanding our resources from there than from elsewhere?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, Norway is of course a good deal more secure as a supplier but Norway is also well aware of its bargaining position. The idea that we should turn down efforts to develop a pipeline from another gas source would fly in the face of intelligent behaviour by the Government, which is to maximise the sources of gas supply to this country.

Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, will the Minister confirm that we can do both, and continue to support Azerbaijan and people in the Caspian region? I think that the UK is the largest investor in Azerbaijan, and there is also that huge pipeline run by BP, which is a British asset. On the basis of security of supply, it is great to have Norway; but it is also very important not to write off the huge resources in the Caspian and to invest over there too.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, and I would emphasise one other point. Anxieties may be expressed about the tensions that exist between countries on the line of this pipeline, but economic interests often reconcile such tensions. For more than half a century, through thick and thin, through the Cold War and even close to the heating up of the Cold War, gas supplies from Russia have remained constant. So we should not exaggerate the extent to which political difficulties might interfere with supplies.

Constitutional Renewal Bill

Question

11.14 am

Asked By Lord Steel of Aikwood

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, the Bill is in its final stages of drafting. We intend to introduce it before the Summer Recess for carry-over into the next Session. However, the final content is not yet agreed. The Government intend to bring forward measures to support this House in disciplining Members and to allow Members who wish to do so to resign. However, we must ensure that that is done in the most appropriate way.

Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, I welcome the Minister's Answer, in so far as the Bill will definitely be with us before the Summer Recess and appears to incorporate two of the four points in the Bill that I

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have introduced in this place, but what about the other two points: putting the Appointments Commission on a statutory basis and ending the hereditary by-elections?

Lord Bach: My Lords, the noble Lord knows that the Government are committed to comprehensive reform of this House. We still believe—we have said this for several months now—that such major reform should be brought forward in a government Bill. That is why we had the all-party group meetings that took place over several years. The consequence of that was that we hope that the parties will set out in their manifestos for the next election their commitment to reform, and comprehensive reform can then take place.

Lord Richard: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Government are absolutely right to view the provisions of the so-called Steel Bill with some suspicion? Is he further aware that the Government are absolutely right to say that at this stage they do not intend to bring forward a partial set of proposals for reform of this House? Finally, is he aware that at some stage the fundamental issue about this House, which is its composition and elections to it, will have to be decided?

Lord Bach: Yes, my Lords, I absolutely agree with my noble friend. This is a major issue and one that we should not enter into lightly. We have committed ourselves to entering into it after the next general election. We hope that with the support of all the major parties we can move towards reform of this House. We still believe that piecemeal reform would be a mistake.

Lord Grocott: My Lords, on the question of constitutional principle, will my noble friend be wary of the advice given to him by my noble friend Lord Richard, which seems to be that until you can do everything, you should not do anything? Will he therefore take particular account of the Second Reading debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, which received overwhelming support in this House? Its four principal provisions were not even objected to—as I read it, they were supported—by the Government Front Bench. Let us do a little bit that is good and wait for the wonders of the future at some later time.

Lord Bach: My Lords, attractive though that proposition is as my noble friend puts it, there are dangers in it too. We feel that if we were to agree to some more minor measures, when we came to the reform of the House that will take place in future, we might be caught slightly by what the earlier Act of Parliament said. We have to walk very carefully in this field.

I can go this far with my noble friend: we think that we should bring forward some government legislation on discipline of the House and we hope to do that soon.

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the Liberal Democrats could best help the stabilisation of the constitution if they would stop perpetually trying to upheave it? Does he further agree that this is not the right time to institute a new Bill for Parliament, just at the end of the present Parliament?



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Lord Bach: My Lords, I agree with the last point; I do not agree with the first.

Lord Tyler: My Lords, has the Minister had an opportunity to examine the provisions in the Constitutional Renewal Bill to which the House gave a First Reading on 31 March and which, incidentally, has provisions for appropriate disciplinary procedures for Members of your Lordships’ House? Would it not be better to make some progress now on these issues rather than wait until the Summer Recess? Will the Minister use his great persuasive powers to get the government business managers to find government time for a Second Reading, because then we could make real progress on these provisions?

Lord Bach: My Lords, the noble Lord knows, I think, what I am going to say. We are immensely grateful to him for having introduced his own Constitutional Renewal Bill. Its progress, of course, is a matter for the usual channels, but it contains a number of points with which we agree and which I believe were drawn from the draft Bill that was published last year and which has been very widely discussed. We believe that those points are better taken forward in a government Bill.

Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, given that the House unanimously agreed the main principles of the Steel Bill, which includes a statutory Appointments Commission, and given the way in which the political parties make their appointments at present and the need for reform of that process, does my noble friend accept that supporters do not see the two points in the Bill which he mentioned as the most fundamental points and that a day should now be found to look at the clarification which the Government claim is needed and which supporters agree should now be made to the Bill to be clear about how the political parties make their nominations to a statutory Appointments Commission?

Lord Bach: My Lords, we disagree with some of the details of the Steel Bill, although, as I have already conceded, there are parts of it that we like. I repeat that we believe that some of those issues point to a comprehensive reform of this House, which is best done by government following an election.

Young Offenders

Question

11.21 am

Asked By Baroness Linklater of Butterstone

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Morgan of Drefelin): My Lords, young offenders who are sentenced to custody will continue to be placed by the Youth Justice Board in the accommodation that is best suited to meet their needs. The number of secure children’s home places that the Youth Justice Board

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has announced it will contract for is an optimum number that is determined by the board’s examination of the average level of demand for beds in secure training centres and secure children’s homes over a three-year period.

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. She may be aware that the number of secure children’s homes that deal with our most vulnerable and difficult offending children has been more than halved over the past decade, with a shift in provision to secure training centres, which are part of the prison estate. Is it not a cause for real concern that the essentially welfare-led approach to these children’s needs is being replaced by the very different, more punitive ethos of the secure training centres, in which the training and staff ratios are lower, the use of restraint is still commonplace, and the reoffending rates are among the highest for offenders of any age?

Further, can the Minister confirm that the closure of Orchard Lodge means the loss of the last facility in the whole of London, so that in future the nearest secure children’s home will be in Southampton?

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. I reassure her that her interpretation of the approach of the Youth Justice Board is not how I would interpret it. I draw her attention to the youth crime action plan and the Government’s commitments in it to promote the youth rehabilitation order as a really constructive alternative to custodial sentences. Over the past 12 months, and before that, we have seen a significant and unsustainable level of vacancies in secure children’s homes. That is what is driving this change from the YJB. I also reassure her that we at the DCSF are looking very carefully at the drop in the level of demand on the welfare side, and at the same time we are investing in a number of alternatives to meet the needs of these children who are, as she says, very vulnerable.

Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, as the Minister will be aware, a lot of concerns have been expressed recently about the interests of children. In the light of that, does she agree that there is a need for more children’s homes and not fewer?

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question. He points to the extremely live debate that is taking place, which follows the report of the noble Lord, Lord Laming, and the Government’s recent response. Through the Care Matters programme and the Children and Young Persons Act, we have placed a duty on local authorities to ensure that a range of appropriate accommodation is available for children who, through a court decision, are taken into care. It is right that we have the appropriate accommodation and that there are places in residential care for children who find themselves in the care of the local authority.

Baroness Stern: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the letter from the Youth Justice Board says that,

in making this decision? In the light of that, can she explain why Sutton Place, a secure children’s home in

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Hull, got a rating of “outstanding” from inspectors and was not given a new contract, while Oakhill secure training centre, which has been in trouble or under a rectification notice since it opened, continues to hold vulnerable children in custody?

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, the noble Baroness draws attention to the criteria that the YJB used for its review of its commissioning of places for secure children’s centres. I believe that the noble Baroness is referring to the fact that the assessment made through the tendering process was prospective and not retrospective. The Ofsted reports to which she refers are retrospective. The YJB asked bodies like Sutton Place to make proposals, which were assessed in terms of the quality and management proposals that were put forward. In the past, Oakhill has been subject to unfavourable assessments, but we can be reassured. On 21 March, Oakhill was given a “satisfactory” overall rating by Ofsted. There have been problems there, but there has also been improvement.

Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, how convinced is the Minister about the robustness of the projections for the demand for numbers of places? She mentioned that it was based on the average demand. Is she aware that where there is an average, there is also a top and bottom figure? In 2008, the chief inspector said that demand outstripped supply. If the projection of lower numbers of places being required is based on the Government putting more resources into rehabilitation in the community, that would be a good thing. Perhaps the noble Baroness can assure us, because it is not a cheaper option, that the Government are going to put an adequate amount of resources into in-community rehabilitation.

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I hope that I can answer the noble Baroness’s questions coherently. My point about the youth crime action plan is that the triple-track approach that the Government are adopting is very much about tackling offending behaviour through enforcement and punishment, as well as promoting better and earlier prevention and using alternatives to custody, such as intensive fostering and intensive surveillance programmes.


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