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On the more general point, it will be noted that at this stage we are not attracted to direct elections. As I have indicated, we are going to respond fairly soon on the ways that we intend to ensure that all national parks continue to be responsive to local and national needs. Of course the fact that the Broads comprise parts of such an extensive number of parish authorities is an important one. We are not in favour of introducing parish council members to the Broads Authority, but of course it is open for them to express their concern for representation by applying for one of the national appointments. My noble friend made the point that in fact democratic expression may come through the forum rather than actual appointments to the boards.
I very much respected the points which the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, made on these issues. She made them with all the authority of the role that she plays now and has played for a long time in our democratic counsels as a Member of Parliament at the other end before she came to this House, and we all respect her views. I hope that she will appreciate the fact that the Government are in favour of good governance for the national parks and for the Broads Authority. The Broads are a little different from the national parks; that is why they have that crucial extra dimension with regard to navigation and why we are considering today the importance of the authority in relation to safety.
I was questioned, I think by the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, about safety. Although from time to time it is contended that the nanny state—a concept which I hope noble Lords opposite realise some of us on this side of the House have a little difficulty in grasping as we are not too sure that we have ever experienced “nannydom”—might overconcern itself with safety, it is the duty of all of us to ensure safety on the waters, and the Broads Authority shares that responsibility. After all, we are all too well aware of the fact that even one tragedy is one tragedy too many.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, for indicating that challenges are present whenever one is involved in boating. No one suggests that every conceivable risk should be removed from the joys of boating and sailing; that would be absurd and would completely reduce the enjoyment involved in it. However, we certainly want to ensure proper safety standards. I am glad about the way in which the British Waterways Authority and others have blazed a trail and that the Bill will enable the Broads Authority to participate in that.
The noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, asked, “Why do we need this legislation? Why can we not have by-laws?” Legislation gives a structure permanence whereas by-laws are fixed and rigid in their terms. If you want flexibility or change, you will have to pass another by-law. The issue here is to ensure that the authority has the necessary flexibility to revise over time the standards required. That element of flexibility is important.
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I realise that I have not been able to assuage the anxieties of all those who have contributed to the passage of the Bill and the criticisms of it. The noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, referred to the role of the chairman of the authority. We believe that there should be a degree of independence and we see no reason why the chair should not be a parish councillor; it is for the forum to decide on that. Certainly it would ill behove any statement from the Dispatch Box by the Government on how such issues should be resolved. I would welcome discussions between the Broads Authority and the forum in the future about these factors because when people express, within the framework of a Bill such as this, anxieties about representation and their voice being heard, they need to be taken seriously.
The Bill has now been considered by committees in both Houses and both committees have found the case for the Bill proven. Although I know my noble friend will do an even more thorough job than I have in responding to the debate, I hope that at the end of it she gets a fair wind and that the Bill does duly pass.
5.34 pm
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, on behalf of the whole House I thank my noble friend. I was slightly alarmed when the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, teased me about the “Heigham” in the title. I can assure him that if it had been Potter Heigham I would probably have had a non-financial interest to declare, as opposed to the fact that it is the title of a ward that I represented in my city for some 20 or 25 years.
Two points of substance have come out. The first is on the democratic deficit. The second is on the safety issues and therefore whether a Bill as such was necessary. I know that Bill does not go as far on the democratic deficit as many members of your Lordships’ House would like. However, today we have found a way forward, as possibly an interim measure, to beef up the voice of local interests and to make sure they are adequately, thoroughly and properly heard by the
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The noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, raised the issue of safety. He suggested that this could be done by by-laws and, if so, the Bill would not be necessary and therefore a lot of time and expense had been wasted. I do not believe that to be the case. Compulsory third-party insurance for boats, water skiing management, hire boat licensing, to take just three items which are essential for the safety of inexperienced users of the Broads, cannot be done by by-laws. They have to be done by this Bill. That seems to be an unanswerable argument.
Like my noble friend, I should like to thank all those who have taken part in proceedings on the Bill—the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich, who is sadly missed today, and the members of the Private Bill Committee, represented here by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, and whose proceedings I have read with admiration as they patiently interrogated and cross-questioned and made sure they understood with perfect clarity the points being raised. I should like also to thank the speakers today, many of whom—I think at least four of us—were personally involved in developing the Broads Authority in the 1980s. I think we are delighted to see what has happened since then. Finally, I say to the Broads Authority and its members and officers that they know as well as anyone in this House that they have a precious landscape in trust. I am confident that it is not only safe in their hands, but with the strength of this Bill behind it, they will continue to enhance it for the enjoyment of us all.
Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments.
Geneva Conventions and United Nations Personnel (Protocols) Bill [HL]
Returned from the Commons
The Bill was returned from the Commons agreed to.
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