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The other bodies included in my amendment are local authorities and the voluntary sector, which has an enormous role to play in preventing crime and supporting various people in the community. As this Bill goes ahead, it will also have a role to play in the judicial process. We therefore seek a clear understanding of this consultation. We recognise that there is already a requirement on the police authorities to consult, but that does not seem to have a huge impact. Will the consultations be published, and will there be meetings—if so, how will they take place—to improve enormously on what is there already?
Lord Borrie: I have a great deal of sympathy for the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, about the stereotyping of the young in relation to offences of various kinds and the way in which that stereotyping may unduly influence the police and others in power, such as magistrates. However, I must express a certain doubt about the desirability of imposing a statutory duty on police authorities to consult children and young persons specifically. The noble Baroness did not define “children” and “young persons”, and I assume from other parts of the law, such as employment law, that “young persons” normally means those between 16 and 18 and that, when the phrases “young persons” and “children” are alongside one another, “children” presumably covers those below 16. While I have some feeling that consulting young persons may be worth while and beneficial to everyone concerned in judging what the police should or should not do, I am rather doubtful about children if they are to be defined as those under 16. I know that we have youth parliaments and so on. They are of great educational value to help people debate, understand and listen to others. But the idea that the police authority should seriously sit down with children—presumably, to be representative, they would have to be not just under 16, but some of them under 10, or under 8, or maybe even under the age of criminal responsibility for all I know—seems to be taking liberalism too far.
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Baroness Walmsley:Ihave to intervene to support my noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond. I find myself very much in disagreement with the noble
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My other point is this. The police authorities obviously want the arrangements that they make for policing to work, and many of those who are most affected by policing arrangements are young people, including the arrangements made to ensure that young people are safe when they go about their local community and the arrangements for ensuring that when minor misdemeanours are committed, the police do not overreact with young people and drag them into the criminal justice system in an unwarranted way. All those arrangements really do affect young people’s lives.
There is such a thing as the “not invented here” syndrome. I think that we are all aware of it. We are much more likely to co-operate with something of which we take ownership ourselves. We take ownership of something when we are consulted and we have our own input. The Government are very aware of the “not invented here” syndrome. Only this morning, I was talking about two reports on the primary school curriculum, one of which was commissioned by the Government and the other of which was not. I am sure your Lordships will have a very good idea of which of those two the Government are taking notice—the one that they commissioned themselves. They have ownership of that report and not of the other one.
If we want young people to co-operate with the police—and we do—then it is very important and beneficial to the whole community, not just to the young people, and to the police in their ability to do their job well, that we should consult young people. Local authorities already have duties to consult young people on a whole raft of issues. That means that they have already developed the skills needed to talk to and listen to young people and to interpret what they are saying—even very young children in some cases, as in relation to the provision of nursery places. So, with local authorities, the skills are already there and are developing all the time. The need is there and the benefits are obvious.
Lord Swinfen: I very much agree with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, on Amendment 1. Of the two amendments under discussion, I prefer that of my noble friend Lady Hanham, because her proposed new subsection (2A)(d) would cover what is in Amendment 1. It specifies:
It is far more important for the police to discuss the position with parents rather than children because they need the parents’ co-operation. To some extent, the problems of young people today arise because parents very often do not start to teach their children discipline and the difference between right and wrong at a young age.
The children covered by Amendment 1 could be as young as three or four. They may well have to be consulted if this amendment becomes law. I do not
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: Many Members of the Committee will have read the interview with the new Home Secretary, Alan Johnson, in today’s Times, in which he refers to the fact that the Government have been coasting on ASBOs and that they are going to take a new, proactive approach. Presumably that means that they will take a much more active line with them.
Anti-social behaviour is always difficult and needs to be dealt with. However, it is interesting that the Home Secretary chose to use the example that young people may become subject to an ASBO for sitting on a wall in front of an elderly person’s house because, as he said, they have nowhere else to go. The elderly residents of a street may well have asked for an ASBO to be imposed after they had asked the youngsters to move and the youngsters had said no, perhaps quite rudely. Young people tend to use different and sometimes offensive language, which can be intimidating to older people. Nevertheless, they would not have committed a criminal offence; they would be assembling as they have done for ages.
I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen. Of course parents have a role, but young people over the age of 10 and up to 18 have been a problem ever since I can remember. Often their parents, with the best will in the world, are unable to deal with them because the behaviour may take place between school and home or when they are out on a Saturday afternoon. You cannot keep them locked up in the house, nor should you—they have to learn to be independent and to deal with the world.
If we pass this Bill, yet again, if the Government have their way on everything—the provisions on alcohol misuse, for example—we will be passing legislation aimed at young people who have done nothing criminal and it will impinge on their freedoms in the same way as ASBOs do. It behoves us—it certainly behoves the Government—at the same time as bringing in further laws that affect young people in these ways, to consider how we are going to ensure that the authorities, such as the police, that deal with these issues take a more proactive approach to young people, who otherwise will feel further alienated.
I know that the record of most police forces is extremely good, but that is not always the case. The people who write letters to the press or sit behind their PCs and fire off letters to their MPs asking for more action to be taken on young people are all adults; very often we do not hear the young person’s side of the story. As I said, the Home Secretary said that the young people may be sitting on the wall in the first place because they have nowhere else to go. It is important that we keep the necessity of engaging with their views at the forefront of our minds when considering the Bill.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): I declare an interest in that I am heavily involved with the Army, Air Force and Navy Cadet Forces and the Combined Cadet Force in encouraging those who have fewer opportunities than others to achieve vocational qualifications, which amount to four GCSEs, to start the process of giving them an opportunity in life. I am heavily involved in that area and with a number of other charities, one of which gives sponsorships to youngsters in the areas of sport, music, the arts and so on. So I am involved in this area to an extent.
I agree to an extent with the noble Baronesses, Lady Harris, Lady Walmsley and Lady Miller, that at times it seems that we are down on youngsters when they are doing what youngsters do, such as hanging around; certainly I was a bit of a scallywag when I was younger. However, I have some sympathy for what the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, said; back then, when I was admittedly very naughty, there was a certain inherent respect that I believe has somehow been undermined. We are down on youngsters too much, but we are in a slightly different place from where we were. We should remember, though, that youngsters are youngsters and, from my experience of the cadet forces and other groups, given half an opportunity and something to focus on, we have some remarkable and wonderful young people in this country. We always need to remember that.
This is a difficult area. As we saw from the debate between the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, my noble friend Lord Borrie and the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, there are a lot of differing views and one has to think about that. I agree with noble Lords that the views of children, young people, local authorities, the business sector and the voluntary sector all need to be considered when the police authority carries out its functions. In that regard, I accept the principle behind the amendment, which I understand. However, this clause is not the right place to make that point.
Police authorities have long been required to obtain the views of the public under Section 96 of the Police Act 1996 and any amendment to how views are obtained or whose views are relevant would need to be made in or under that section rather than here. I would not wish to apply this amendment to that section either, though, for one simple reason: it has too few items on the list. The Bill refers to,
which is a very wide standard. The Government are clear that that can include the views of people who live and/or work in an area, including children and young people, people in businesses in that area, people in the local authorities in that area and people in the voluntary sector organisations in that area. We therefore accept that all the people specified by noble Lords should be included, but trying to list everyone who should be consulted runs the risk of excluding all the groups that are not on that list. Why should we specify children but not parents who live outside the area whose children attend schools there, or those who visit elderly relatives or other vulnerable people in the area? There is an endless list of people and groups that deserve a say in
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Furthermore, merely adding that police authorities must engage with people whom they consider relevant, as Amendment 2 seeks to do, would not solve that problem. In fact, it is difficult to conceive of a situation where a police authority would consider a person to be relevant and yet not consult them. We should not be too prescriptive; we should treat these people as mature people who do these things, as indeed I think they do.
What would the additional duty add? The measure is too subjective to have any real-life effect. That is why the Police and Justice Act 2006 amended Section 96 of the 1996 Act to allow the Government to make regulations that may include provision about who must be consulted. The Government will therefore make such regulations setting out the arrangements that authorities must make for obtaining the views of people in their area, which will allow a more flexible approach so that the list can be changed when appropriate. It will, however, provide a specific set of principles by which the police authority will be bound rather than the sort of general catch-all proposed in the amendment, which, as I say, is too prescriptive. The Home Secretary will bring regulations to set out minimum standards for engagement and those regulations will include specific provisions for groups that are harder to reach, such as children.
While noble Lords make an excellent point, which I accept, I suggest that the clause is not the most appropriate place, nor is this the most appropriate way, to do what is suggested. I ask them kindly not to press their amendments.
Baroness Hanham: Before we conclude this debate, if we are going to, I want to go back to both the legislation and what the Minister has said. I am now slightly concerned that the Minister has suggested regulations. There is no room for regulations in this Bill because it does not say anything about them, which means that there is no possibility of them coming to this House. We may later have to insert an amendment that says that the regulations on consultation must be brought forward.
To widen this a little further, my amendment would amend Section 6(2) of the Police Act, which is what we are talking about. The Minister suggested that it would not, but it would. Clause 1(1) says that the Police Act, as it is presently structured, states that the police authority “must have regard”. That is a very wobbly phrase and I wonder how it got through parliamentary scrutiny. It might mean absolutely anything. From what the Minister has said, I suppose that the regulations will point out how they “must have regard”. That is not here. We do not have any information at all about how the police authorities will be asked to carry out this important duty. I accept what the Minister says: in lists there are always difficulties over making sure that everybody is included. However, my amendment mentions,
I ask the Minister to go a little further and to give us an opportunity to probe more on exactly how this consultation will take place. Will it be formal consultation
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3.45 pm
Lord West of Spithead: We do not want to be too prescriptive. As I have said, it is rather like mission command, where you give the mark for where you want to go and then let people get on with it. However, regulations and changes to regulations would be under existing Section 96 of the Police Act 1996. That is how that would be done. It will be constantly looked at in discussion with the people involved, to see how we need to amend, if necessary, that section of the Act.
Baroness Harris of Richmond: First, I thank those noble Lords who have supported my amendment, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and my noble friends Lady Walmsley and Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer. My noble friend Lady Walmsley talked about the benefits to the whole community when young people are consulted about how they can see crime improving in their area. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, I point him to the example that I gave of the young boy who talked about being concerned about swearing and littering. He was 11 years old. There are many young people below the age of 16 who attend youth clubs. Their concerns can be expressed very clearly through youth clubs and other youth societies. The police should take note of them.
I also hear what the Minister said about being naughty when he was a boy, but in those days there was respect for older people. Young people today can be more respectful if they are consulted. They become better young citizens if they are asked what their views are. It is very important to take that on board. I also accept that, at the moment, the Minister does not feel that this is the right place in which to make the point. I was going to ask him whether he would consider putting it in regulations, but he neatly answered that point by saying that there would be regulations on a set of principles. I thank him for that small concession.
I will withdraw the amendment but we may decide to bring it back at a later stage to see whether something a little meatier could be inserted at another point in the Bill. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
3: Clause 1, page 1, line 11, at end insert—
“( ) In section 4(6) of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 after the words “in paragraphs (a) to (e)” add the words “and (g)”.”
Baroness Harris of Richmond: This is a probing amendment. If the Committee were to accept the argument that I propose, a number of consequential amendments would in practice be required to give effect to this amendment. At present, chief executives of police authorities do not enjoy the same statutory
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Section 4 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 requires a relevant authority to designate a head of paid service. In practice, that is usually the chief executives of the authority. The definition of “relevant authority” in this section of the Act does not include a police authority, although a number of other sections apply to police authorities. In 2001, the Local Authorities (Standing Orders) (England) Regulations were introduced, part of which dealt with incorporating into authorities’ standing orders certain provisions about disciplinary action that could be brought against the head of paid services, the chief finance officer and the monitoring officer.
At the time of the 1989 Act police authorities—as I well remember, having been a member of one—were still a committee of the local authority rather than the independent bodies that they now are. However, it is not clear why police authorities were not included in the 2001 order, because by that time they were independent bodies, other than in the City of London, where I understand that the police authority continues to be the Common Council of the City of London.
In 2001, chief executives of police authorities were called clerks. I remember participating in a police Bill a few years ago that managed to get their title changed to that of chief executive, about which they were all very pleased. One can speculate that in 2001 many chief executives of police authorities were also chief executives of a local authority, so that they headed police authority secretariats on a part-time basis. To that extent, chief executives had relevant protection through their mainstream employment; they were part time on both sides. However, even then not all statutory officers of police authorities were also local authority employees, and now it is almost definitely the case that very few are.
Now that there is increased emphasis on strengthening police authorities and making both members and officers more accountable, is it not time to rectify this anomaly? I want to ensure that not only chief executives but police authority treasurers and monitoring officers—sometimes they are the same person—benefit from the same protection as their counterparts in local authorities. I beg to move.
Baroness Henig: I support the amendment. In doing so, I declare an interest as the president and a past chair of the Association of Police Authorities. I support the amendment on the grounds that this matter has clearly not been updated in line with the various pieces of legislation that have been passed in the past few years and on grounds of equity. It seems to me that this is a very important change that should be made to safeguard the position of chief executives.
As the noble Baroness has said, chief executives are now in a very different position from the one that they had 10 years ago. It is important not only that they should be covered in the way that she suggests, to make them operate on a similar basis to those in local government, but that they should have that position in
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Lord West of Spithead: On this amendment, the noble Baronesses have both raised an interesting and important point. I have also noted the position of the Association of Police Authority Chief Executives on this matter. Police authority chief executives and other officers perform a hugely important and, possibly, underrated role in the operation of the police service in this country. I know that Home Office officials often find the Association of Police Authority Chief Executives to be a useful and expert adviser on policing matters.
I agree that it seems strange that police authority chief executives do not have the clear protections and status in law that their local authority counterparts enjoy. As previous speakers have said, that was, perhaps, an accident of history due to the evolution of policing governance and the role of police authority clerks and chief executives. Police authorities are, especially from a corporate perspective, similar in many respects to other local authorities. They are not, however, identical and there might be a need to have more tailored provisions regarding the position of police authority officers. Therefore, while the amendment certainly warrants serious consideration the Government must give the position much more thought before they could offer it their backing.
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