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I understand that in recent debate there has been a lot of interest in ACPO’s status and structure. I know that the party opposite has been looking at this in some detail. However, as I said, I think that it performs a very useful duty. Although it can sometimes prove very uncomfortable, I have found it valuable in doing my job as it holds my feet to the fire. I therefore ask that the amendment be withdrawn.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, who has been very helpful in putting down Written Questions, and I am grateful for his excellent contribution today. He made many points with which I totally agree.
My noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond asked a very relevant question: what sort of beast are we dealing with? The Minister has insisted that it is a private organisation, but how can senior police officers who are paid by the public purse to serve the public—we have just been debating a clause about how accountable they should be—have an association that is entirely private and not subject to FOI? I am afraid that I am taken back to my childhood and conversations between very concerned people as to whether members of the police force belonged to, for example, the Freemasons. I do not want to draw a parallel between the Freemasons and ACPO because that may well not be appropriate. Nevertheless, an association of senior police officers needs to have a better constitutional footing and we need to be much clearer about what sort of animal we
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4.30 pm
Lord West of Spithead: I assess that it is appropriate, although it does seem that there are anomalies.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I will hold on to “anomaly” as something that I intend to build on. It is not a satisfactory position. I would not go so far as Henry Porter did in his article when he suggested that it is an immense conspiracy; but he raised a number of valid points that should give even the Minister great cause for concern. We cannot, under Clause 1, debate how accountable the police are, and then, when debating the very next clause, start debating how appropriate it is to keep from the eyes of the public all the discussions that senior police officers have about strategy. That is not appropriate and not what we should allow to happen in the Bill. I will come back to this on Report, when I have gathered more information.
Baroness Hanham:The point that I made has not been referred to. Does the noble Baroness agree that the fact that ACPO is now getting a statutory responsibility to nominate people to the police senior appointments panel changes the situation? It now has a firm statutory role within the police service.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, who has put her finger so accurately on the point. We have discussed accountability in the Bill, and, as she says, we are about to discuss the statutory role of ACPO; yet the Minister is denying that it should be open to people to see what it is about and what it is doing. As I pointed out at the beginning of the debate, the Prime Minister and a Minister from the Ministry of Justice have said that they intend to expand the application of FOI. This should be the first place to expand it to. We will come back to the matter on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Clause 2 : Police Senior Appointments Panel
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Baroness Henig: I shall speak also to Amendment 6. I have already declared an interest as president of the Association of Police Authorities. I declare an interest also as chair of the Security Industry Authority.
These two amendments take different approaches but deal with the same concern, which is to ensure that the national influence in appointing the most senior police officers does not outweigh the local interest. Much of the strength and credibility of British policing lies in getting this delicate balance right. If we get it wrong, the consequences will be serious.
First, I apologise to the Committee, because both amendments have slight errors in the form in which they appear on the Marshalled List. For clarity, I will explain what is meant when I reach the relevant sections. My first amendment takes the simplest approach. It is intended to remove the whole clause, apart from subsection (2), which relates to delegated functions and the role of HMIC. I accept that HMIC should no longer have delegated functions to carry out the Secretary of State’s role in approving senior appointments, given its new and more independent role as set out in the Green Paper. However, the amendment as shown in the Marshalled List suggests that subsections (3) and (4) should also remain. This is an error, for which I apologise. If the main part of this clause is removed, these subsections must go, too. This is covered in Amendment 11, which should really be debated alongside Amendment 5A. When we come to debate Amendment 11, I shall not seek to move it.
The amendment would result in the senior appointments panel remaining a non-statutory body. I listened carefully to the Minister at Second Reading, and I support his desire to make the senior appointments panel more independent and more proactive, but I am afraid that I do not see why it needs to be a statutory body to operate in this way. This will merely inject unwelcome additional bureaucracy into the appointments process and hand greater powers to the Home Secretary of the day, and to his or her officials, to direct this body in favour of national requirements to the detriment of local interests and requirements.
It might be worth reiterating that the local police authority has the power to appoint chief officers, not the Home Secretary, whose role is to approve appointments made by police authorities. My noble friend therefore has yet to convince me that a statutory body is necessary for the Home Secretary to carry out this role of approval effectively or for police authorities to take heed of advice on the wider national strategic requirements. As noble Lords will notice, I am taking a twin-track approach here, so I argue that a statutory body is not necessary. If we accept that it is desirable, I am concerned about the precise nature of some of the proposals that are set out in Clause 2, so my second amendment deals with that situation.
Again, before explaining exactly what my concerns are, I must apologise to the Committee for an error in the amendment on the Marshalled List. Proposed new subsection (18) should refer to subsections (12) and (13)—that is, to the respective functions of the Secretary of State and police authorities to approve and make senior appointments.
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Broadly speaking, my Amendment 6 is designed to introduce precisely the more independent and proactive approach to which my noble friend has alluded, without the centralised approach that risks upsetting the national/local balance. The amendment makes it clear that the make-up of the panel needs to be balanced so that the Home Secretary’s appointees cannot outnumber the appointees nominated by police authorities and chief officers. It would also enable the panel to elect its own chair, rather than leaving this appointment to the Home Secretary. It would provide independence to the panel to determine its own arrangements for conducting its business, rather than those arrangements being set out by the Home Secretary.
Perhaps most importantly, my amendment is more explicit about what the functions of the panel should be. Specifically, it includes the ability to give general advice not just to the Home Secretary but to police authorities. If the Home Secretary needs advice on approving chief officer appointments, it is only sensible that that advice should also be given to the bodies that make the appointments.
The functions also include the critical duty of developing a more consistent and robust system for setting out the criteria for prioritising vacancies and considering candidates for them. This problem has long existed and has never been satisfactorily resolved. It always means that some authorities must wait much longer than others before it is their turn to interview available candidates. It also means that, for those who come later in the queue, the pool of available candidates tends to be smaller. In the past, this has been dealt with by a process of negotiation reaching eventual consensus. That has not been without problems, however, and a new and more proactive panel should be required to see whether there are ways of improving the system.
Finally, the amendment would give the panel the flexibility to carry out any other functions that may be necessary to fulfil its main duties. This would replace an order-making power for the Secretary of State to confer additional functions.
All these proposed provisions in Amendment 6 are based on practical experience of the workings of this body. If the body is to be made statutory, it should be made statutory to improve its workings and to make it a more effective body for all the parties concerned—the Secretary of State, the police authorities and senior police officers. In moving this amendment, I hope that my noble friend will agree that the amendment would genuinely provide for an independent and proactive panel that is properly balanced between the tripartite policing partners and national and local requirements. I beg to move.
Baroness Harris of Richmond: I added my name to the amendments because I completely agree with them. I have been interested to hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, had to say. My question was why the senior appointments panel needs to be a statutory body. Once again, the Secretary of State will be granted new powers to make arrangements or orders about the make-up, functions and proceedings of this new body.
It is the primary responsibility of police authorities to appoint their chief officers, after which the Secretary
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This panel must have a genuine tripartite balance in its membership. As it stands, the wording is so wide that it could allow a future Home Secretary to appoint more government representatives and so upset that very delicate balance. Government representatives should not outnumber police community appointees, so I ask the Minister to look again at this and ensure that the wording is tightened.
I have spent many years on policing matters. I have gone through many interviews with chief officers—from chief constables through to deputies and assistants—and so have a wide-ranging knowledge of how they are selected to come before a police authority and what then happens when they do. As the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, said, the Secretary of State could say, “No, I do not particularly want that person to go before a selection panel of police authorities”. That simply is not good news. A transparent process is what is needed in the Bill. There are no criteria by which decisions are made about when and which officers can apply for posts. SAP must develop mechanisms to address these concerns. I hope that the Minister will be able to assuage some of my concerns in this area.
Viscount Bridgeman: The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, has made a constructive speech and, while disagreeing with the change from non-statutory to statutory, she has produced some constructive amendments. She has raised several points about the panel—in particular, the role that the Secretary of State will play in the appointments process—and about the ongoing development of the panel.
A shake-up is clearly needed in the appointments process. The difficulty of attracting sufficient numbers of appropriately qualified candidates to apply for available positions is an indication that much more needs to be done to support and train candidates to prepare them for senior roles. However, I agree with both noble Baronesses who have spoken that some concerns remain, certainly among outside organisations, that the Government have not established the panel on the best footing to achieve this. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us more detail on exactly how he envisages this legislation improving how the panel currently operates. The role is to be put on a statutory basis, as the Government propose. However, in the previous arrangements, if the Secretary of State had wanted to consult the non-statutory appointments panel, there was nothing to stop him.
We generally support this clause as a welcome sign that the Government have turned their attention to a pressing problem and hope that the panel will be able to make an important contribution to the process. We agree, however, with the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, that the changes that need to be made are not ones that can be legislated for; they need to be made in government and in the police bodies.
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I turn to the details of the provisions—and this is where we very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Harris—and how they differ from the proposals in the noble Baroness’s amendment. The noble Baroness is quite right to highlight the significant powers that the Secretary of State is taking over the constitution of the panel in the future. We understand the need for some flexibility, but the failure to specify the number of members or the relative proportions of the representative members means that the future make-up of the panel could well be very different from the model envisaged by the Government. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us more detail on this matter.
4.45 pm
Lord West of Spithead: Taken alone, Amendment 5A, tabled by my noble friend Lady Henig and the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, would remove the statutory senior appointments panel from the Bill. However, Clause 2 is an important part of the Bill and the Government are committed to working, through the tripartite, to get the best possible leaders for the future in policing. A more proactive, strengthened statutory senior appointments panel will play a key role in delivering this. Amendment 6, also tabled by my noble friend Lady Henig and the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, would replace the majority of the Government’s clause establishing a senior appointments panel and alter the composition and functions of this panel. They are fairly major amendments.
I thank my noble friend Lady Henig for highlighting the importance, as I said at Second Reading, of streamlining, making better and sorting out the appointments panel so that we get the best senior policemen we can, in a co-ordinated fashion, across a disparate group of police areas in this country, which has always been so difficult to achieve in the past. The Government agree with the principle that the tripartite contribution to the panel should remain balanced. The noble Baroness, Lady Harris, mentioned this and we share her view, which we see as important. That is why the Bill specifies that that ability is required to keep the tripartite well balanced.
As set out in the policing Green Paper, which is where this stemmed from, the Government believe that the new panel should have a greater independent element so that there is a broader perspective on leadership. This is established by Clause 2. The provision in new Section 53B(2)(a) will be used to appoint independent members according to the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments principles. The Government also share the view that the panel should publish reports, but new Section 53B(5)(b) already provides for arrangements to be made for publishing those reports. The Government made clear in the Green Paper and in the debate in the other place that these reports would be published and the detail would be set out in the panel’s constitution.
Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary will continue to have an important role as an adviser to the panel. Work is ongoing with those involved to ensure that the key needs of the appointments system are identified; it is envisaged that the key additional functions will relate to the co-ordination of the
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The new panel will not make appointments directly. The function of a police authority to appoint the senior officers set out in the Police Act remains in statute. The panel retains a powerful advisory role on ministerial approval of candidates and will increasingly take a more strategic overview of the talent pool. That is absolutely crucial. I was surprised when I came into this area for the first time that, unlike in the military, there is not an overall view to develop the best officers to go to the top of the profession.
When the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of this House reviewed this, it did not consider the absence of parliamentary control over the panel’s arrangements to be inappropriate. The committee is also content that Clause 2 provides appropriate parliamentary oversight for conferring additional functions. Before conferring additional functions, the Secretary of State must consult the panel, giving all panel members—both independent and tripartite representatives—an opportunity for full discussion. Parliamentary scrutiny committees look at all orders laid before the House, providing an additional check and an opportunity to scrutinise. All those issues are important.
I therefore believe that the current provision provides the framework needed most effectively to oversee and manage the important issue of policing appointments, which all of us in this place agree needs a shake-up. I invite my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hanham: This seems to be an opportunity to open up consideration of the representative members. We briefly touched in our last amendment on ACPO’s role in nominating. Will the Minister say a little more on ACPO’s role in advising the panel and how that will change under the Bill?
Secondly, the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, is interesting in what it leaves out. She leaves out from proposed new Section 53C:
“The Secretary of State may refer any report made by Her Majesty’s Inspectors of Constabulary to the panel”.
That means that HMIC can ask the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State will refer. One wonders which reports HMIC deems so important that it has to go via the Secretary of State to ask the panel to consider them that do not fall into subsection (4), which the noble Baroness has included.
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I ask the Minister for two explanations. The first relates to the nomination process for members of the panel. As I understand it, in the past ACPO and APA used to work in an advisory capacity on putting forward nominations, but here they are now both with statutory responsibility. The second is the interesting aspect of what HMIC is going to be referring or asking the Secretary of State. Indeed, the provision does not specify that, so the Secretary of State may refer of his own volition an HMIC report to the panel. What might that report be on?
Lord West of Spithead: I fear that I will not be able to be specific on either of the points. All I can say is that ACPO is very much seen as part of the tripartite in the new system with the APA and the Secretary of State. Perhaps I may come back to the noble Baroness in writing about the differences between now and the future, as I am afraid that I am not able to articulate that clearly now. Similarly, to give a specific example of what the Secretary of State demands of an HMIC report, I will have to come back in writing; I do not have the information at my fingertips.
Baroness Henig: I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baronesses for their supportive comments. I agree with the Minister that we need to make the system of senior appointments work more effectively; we all want to do that. He feels that greater co-ordination is crucial. One of the problems relates to remarks by the noble Viscount about poor choices for those downstream and some of the appointments; the problem lies not at senior appointment level but lower down, in the numbers of senior officers coming forward and coming through the selection process. That is where the action needs to be taken. I have sat on many bodies that the Home Office has set up over the years to try to improve diversity and the flow of appropriate candidates coming through. More action is needed at that level. Increasing choice at senior appointments level is not a matter for the senior appointments panel; that lies lower down the chain.
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