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I hear what my noble friend said about his surprise when he came into the post that a military model was not followed for police officers. Many of us have debated that point long and hard over the years. Both senior police officers and police authorities value the element of choice. There are police officers who have family concerns and preferences. They do not wish to be moved around, as might be the case with a military career. They might not want to move their children out of schools. There are many legitimate family issues for police officers to pursue in wanting to have a certain amount of choice in the appointments that they go for. Similarly, if locality means anything, it means that police authorities may themselves want a choice about the sort of police officers whom they are looking for. I say respectfully that I do not think that the military model is an appropriate one, and I have said so for the past 10 years. So far I have managed to beat off this idea that the senior ranks of the police should be moved around and that we should develop cadres that have a military way of proceeding, but I can see that I am going to have to fight the battle for
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My reservations centre on the role of the Secretary of State. Is this going to be the thin end of the wedge in giving the Secretary of State more power in an area that a lot of us feel is central to maintaining democratic accountability over policing and the powers of local authorities? While I will withdraw the amendment at this stage, I may wish to return to the issue on Report.
Amendments 7 and 8 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
Viscount Bridgeman: Following on from the previous debate where we discussed the uncertainty over the future number and make-up of members, Amendment 9 seeks to highlight uncertainty about the future functions of the panel. Although we welcome the creation of a body capable of driving through the changes necessary to ensure proper career development within the police force, and hope that the advisory functions will allow for a useful relationship between the panel and the Home Office, new Section 53D potentially opens up a much larger role for the panel in future. We on these Benches are sensitive—and it is possible that the Liberal Democrats sometimes feel the same—that this is far too much legislation going into secondary legislation. What additional functions do the Government envisage giving to the panel in future? If there is a useful role that the panel could play in other areas, why has that role not been drafted into this legislation already? I beg to move.
Baroness Harris of Richmond: I support the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman. We too are concerned at the powers of the Secretary of State under this section to confer an additional function on the senior appointments panel, and he can do this by a negative statutory instrument. We do not feel that this is appropriate either.
Lord West of Spithead: The amendment would remove the power of the Home Secretary to confer additional functions on the senior appointments panel, and it is important that the arrangements for the panel contain sufficient flexibility to allow it to take its work forward in future, while having the checks in place so that Parliament and the tripartite are appropriately involved.
As I have mentioned in this debate, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has scrutinised the approach taken in the Bill and is satisfied with this power to confer additional functions. The proposed amendment would also mean that the power of the
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I am unclear as to the noble Lord’s intention in removing the amendments to the Race Relations and Freedom of Information Acts. The Bill ensures that the panel is subject to all relevant equality duties by amending the Race Relations Act to apply the race equality duty to the panel. The equality duties for gender and disability will apply to the panel, since it will be carrying out public functions. In future, I fully expect the panel to be subject to the requirements of the equality duty set out in the Equality Bill. It is important that a body that has a role in helping to improve the diversity of senior appointments has the appropriate statutory equality responsibilities. As an example of extra co-ordination, by allowing this not to be in the Bill we want to achieve greater flexibility in future. As soon as we tie it in to the Bill, we are tied down to something and it does not necessarily cover everything that we will want to do in the future. Therefore, I invite the noble Viscount to withdraw his amendment.
Viscount Bridgeman: I think the Minister is not being quite specific enough about the intentions behind this clause. We will certainly address this in future stages of the debate. Is the Minister in a position to go a little further now?
Lord West of Spithead: I fear that I am unable to go further at the moment. Could we return to this?
Viscount Bridgeman: I understand. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, for her support. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
10: Clause 2, page 3, line 31, at end insert—
“( ) In Section 54(2A) of that Act (inspection and report powers of inspectors of constabulary) at end insert, “and, in the case of the Police Senior Appointments Panel, the operation of the Senior Appointments process in each police force area.”
Baroness Hanham: Amendment 10 explores how the panel’s activities will be scrutinised and what mechanisms there will be to assess its performance.
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Lord West of Spithead: This amendment seeks to create a role for the Inspectorate of Constabulary in inspecting the operation of the senior appointments system in each police force area. There is no doubt about the importance of transparency and accountability in the appointments system. I therefore share the principle behind this amendment. However, I believe that the amendment is unnecessary since the Secretary of State already has the power, under Section 54 of the Police Act 1996, to require HMIC to prepare reports on particular functions of a police authority, which could include the workings of the senior officer appointments process in that force. More broadly it is also the responsibility of the panel itself, which will publicly report on the functioning of the appointments system and the strategic challenges to address. This will take into account the views of APA, ACPO and others, as well as the professional input of the inspectorate.
In the debate in the other place that was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, the Government made clear the intention, set out in the policing Green Paper, for the panel to publish reports to increase the transparency of the senior appointments process. This requirement will be set out in the senior appointment panel’s constitutional arrangements, which will be made under Clause 2. Therefore, I hope noble Lords can see that, while I have much sympathy with the principle behind the amendment of having a transparent and accountable senior appointments panel, I believe that the amendment is not necessary, since we are already achieving that. I hope that, on the basis of those reassurances, the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hanham: I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. As I understand it, the power is already there for HMIC to produce the reports and for the Secretary of State to invite it to do so. I very much hope that that will happen and that reports will be made so that these appointments, all that is involved in them, and what the panel is doing, are well understood. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
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Baroness Henig: I should explain that I wanted to take this amendment with Amendment 5A because it goes with that amendment. Therefore, I have spoken to it already. I am not sure that I have anything further to add.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): The noble Baroness must move the amendment to give others a chance to speak to it.
Baroness Henig: I beg to move the amendment, and I wish to say nothing further in support of it.
Lord West of Spithead: I am sure that this was an unintended aspect of Amendment 11, but it would remove the senior appointments panel from the scope of the race equality duty in the Race Relations Act 1976 and from the Freedom of Information Act 2000. I am unclear of the intention behind the amendment. I think that I now understand it better given the previous description of it but it still has the problems to which I have referred.
I take the view very strongly that the new appointments panel must be subject to the relevant equalities and freedom of information legislation if it is to command the confidence of officers, police authorities and the public. The equality duties for gender and disability will apply. However, specific provision is needed to ensure that the panel is subject to the race equality duty in the Race Relations Act.
The race equality duty will require the panel to have due regard to the need to eliminate unlawful racial discrimination. It would be a serious anomaly if the panel were not subject to this duty. It is important that a body which has a role in helping to improve the diversity of senior appointments has the appropriate statutory responsibilities. Given that the panel has a particular advisory role for appointments, and that increasing diversity is a key challenge, it is especially important that this is done. I do not believe that the amendment intended to remove that duty but that is what it would achieve. I hope that I have helped to clarify it a little. The other aspect of it was debated earlier. On that basis, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Henig: I thank my noble friend. I think there was an error in the way that this was formulated, for which I apologise to the Committee. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Clause 3 : Regulations about senior officers
Baroness Hanham: This is a probing amendment to try to find out what payments the Government envisage
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In another place the Minister for crime and policing made the rather surprising remark that the clause did not seek to fix any problem. Therefore, one does not know whether a problem is anticipated in the future. Presumably the Government anticipate that there might be a problem with officers seeking to terminate their employment prematurely or having their employment terminated. Perhaps the Minister can give us examples of why either of those situations might occur. There is a great deal more in this part of the Bill regarding co-ordination and co-operation which might legitimately lead to a situation where there was a vacancy or one was created. We need to understand a little more about what the clause is about and why it is included. I hope that the noble Lord will be kind enough to explain this and, if possible, relate it to other aspects of the legislation. I beg to move.
Lord Harris of Haringey: I had assumed that this part of the Bill related to pay-offs for senior officers who were asked to go early. If that is the case, no doubt my noble friend will respond on that specific point. I should be grateful if he will also respond on the wider question of incentive payments to senior officers because it is my understanding that some police authorities make extremely generous payments outside the normal negotiating board arrangements, thereby distorting the payment arrangements for senior officers in different parts of the country. If that is the case, rather than narrowing the ambit of this clause, as the noble Baroness proposes, we might want to see it widened to cover those additional bonus payments that are, I think, made in some police authority areas.
Baroness Harris of Richmond: The noble Lord, Lord Harris, makes an interesting point. I, too, would be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about that. I support the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham. How do the Government envisage this being used? Would there be different levels of payment for each different reason that a person would leave, dependent on how long they had been in post and that sort of thing? Those are my concerns about this amendment.
Lord West of Spithead: In one word, flexibility is the cry. A key theme of the policing Green Paper is greater local accountability. Therefore, ensuring that police authorities have all the options necessary to act in the best interest of communities is important. The new chief officer appointments framework will increase the focus on chief officers’ performance. However, the Government recognise—although I cannot give a specific example—that there easily could be a circumstance where, as a result of the changing needs of the force or of the individual, the current chief officer was no longer the best person to lead their force.
Therefore, the regulations would allow police authorities to exercise their discretion in agreeing the appropriate compensation for a chief officer to leave before the end of his contract if it were the best way forward overall, given that this would not imply any lack of performance on behalf of the officer. One can see occasions where one is not actually in a position to
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My noble friend Lord Harris talked of incentives; I am afraid that I do not have the statistics on those outside the norm at my fingertips, but perhaps I may look into that and get back to him on that specific point separately from this debate, because I am not aware of those. As I say, it is for flexibility; having given greater local accountability to allow people to make the best moves necessary to ensure that they have the best person there, as there are changing circumstances. I hope that clarification will suffice, and I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.
Baroness Hanham: I am surprised that this does not exist already. In employment law, I would have thought that there was always a right for an authority to terminate employment. It gives no indication of whether this would be done under employment law, or of the sort of levels of payment that there might be. It gives no indication of whether that payment would fall on the pension fund, because so often early retirement—which is what this would be—amounts to that. It only says that this is going to come in within regulations. What are those regulations going to be?
It is a very broad statement to say that payments can be made. There is nothing to give any substance to what that is going to be. I accept the circumstances as I laid them out; I suggested that it might be when there was an interest in changing the way that authorities were run, and vacancies were having to be created. Neither does it indicate whether this is something that might be a quasi-disciplinary matter. Can the Minister put a little more flesh on this?
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Lord West of Spithead: The aim is that this should absolutely not be a disciplinary matter, because there are rules to go through for that. We need a clear power in statute to support the payments where appropriate. We want to give discretion in each case to the individual police authority, so I have not been more specific about the amounts. I am afraid that I do not have the answer on the pension at my fingertips. Maybe I could come back to the noble Baroness outside the debate on the detail of that.
Baroness Hanham: I am grateful to the Minister but am still quizzical. I shall probably return to the subject because, if ever a situation causes angst, difficulty and consternation, it is to do with payments, whether pay-off payments or whatever. We have had huge examples not too far down the line of what people have discovered in finding out how much payments will be. I would be grateful to know whether there will be any guidance on where the payments are coming from—it might be the pension fund. Would they constitute a year’s salary or more than that? How will that be laid down? If we get the Freedom of Information Act coming in and somebody asks the question and finds out what payments are made, there will be plenty of room for mischief and trouble. As I said earlier, we
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Lord West of Spithead: The noble Baroness raises some good points. I shall get back to her in some detail on them.
Baroness Hanham: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): The Question is that Clause 13 stand part of the Bill.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I beg your Lordships’ pardon. I cannot read my own writing.
Debate on whether Clause 3 should stand part of the Bill.
Baroness Harris of Richmond: That almost gave me a heart attack.
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