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I see no reason to remove the current provisions, only to replace them with a duty to consult with the Home Secretary. That would be far more time-consuming for the authorities, as they would need to do this individually with no national co-ordination of strategy.
I hope I have been able to convince the noble Baroness and the Committee that, in budgetary management, police authorities already have some of the powers that are being sought in the amendments, that some of the existing safeguards on capping are necessary, and that the proposed removal of the Secretary of State’s powers would spoil the very fine balance between local efficient and effective delivery policing and nationally co-ordinated and strategically consistent efficient and effective policing. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Harris of Richmond: The Minister and I will never agree on this point. The effect of what he is saying is a great tightening band around police authorities’ freedoms to manage their affairs sensibly. Police authorities do not go spending willy-nilly money that they do not have or cannot raise properly. I advise the Minister that in North Yorkshire a number of years ago—not under my watch; it was as soon as I left, when the Conservatives took over the running of the authority—the precept ranged enormously. It was the largest in the country. It is not right to say that this cannot happen and that the Home Secretary can impose a cap. He did not do so when north Yorkshire did what it did, because it was done proportionately. Local people have voted for what they want their police authority to provide. I fear that we will go over this again and again, and I apologise to the Minister for
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Clause 5: Police collaboration
Baroness Henig: Amendments 19 and 21 are the first of many amendments to deal with issues of collaboration. Their aim is to make collaboration effective. To do that, we have to make clear where the responsibility needs to lie to ensure that there is collaboration and that it does not undermine existing accountabilities.
Ever since the Police Act was passed in 1996, each police authority has had a statutory duty to ensure that the police force for its area is efficient and effective. In addition, new arrangements were brought in three years ago under the Police and Justice Act, which gave a police authority the statutory duty to ensure that its force collaborates where this improves efficiency and effectiveness in policing for a wider area, not just for the area of its own force. Amendment 19 is therefore consistent with a police authority’s existing duties. Against this, it is not currently the primary duty of chief officers to determine what is efficient and effective, which the amendment makes clear. The Bill allows room for confusion to be created about who should determine efficiency and effectiveness in the context of collaboration.
One would hope that disagreements about whether to collaborate would rarely, if ever, arise between a police authority and its chief officer, but if this were to happen the Bill’s wording would simply result in deadlock. Potentially, this could be fully resolved only by the police authority firing the chief officer, which would be a rather unsatisfactory resolution, not least for the chief officer. The legislation therefore needs to be clear about who has the ultimate accountability for ensuring collaboration. The amendment would achieve this by removing the reference to the chief officer’s judgment about efficiency and effectiveness. The key driver would then become the provision in the clause that follows: that a chief officer may make a collaboration agreement only with the approval of the police authority. That is consistent with current legislation.
The second amendment in the group—Amendment 21, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, will speak—reinforces this approach and the overarching role of the police authority to determine what is efficient and effective. I beg to move.
6.15 pm
Baroness Harris of Richmond: Amendment 21 is grouped with Amendment 19. As the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, has just pointed out, the two amendments are related.
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The noble Baroness has already spoken about the background to the amendments, so I will not repeat it. I agree with her that the Bill needs to be clear about where the ultimate accountability rests in order to ensure collaboration. I also agree with her that this is not clear at the moment, for the reasons that she outlined. Collaboration is really too important to leave this open to interpretation.
My amendment would add to Amendment 19 and make this crystal clear. It would provide that a police authority could approve a police force collaboration agreement only if it believed that the agreement was in the interests of the efficiency and effectiveness of one or more police forces. This is consistent with the police authorities’ existing powers and would reiterate this in the context of force collaboration agreements.
Viscount Bridgeman: We find Amendments 19 and 21 very sensible because, as the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, has said, they are designed to relate to the interests of the efficiency or effectiveness of one or more police forces. I particularly take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, that firing the chief police officer would be a draconian move. I also very much support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond.
Lord West of Spithead: Efficiency and effectiveness at all levels of policing are at the heart of the purpose of encouraging collaboration. It is right that efficiency and effectiveness should be the test used in assessing whether a joint approach is the best approach to follow when considering such an agreement. Police authorities have the central function of ensuring that the policing of their areas is efficient and effective, so they have a wider responsibility to support these aims for the community through collaboration.
My noble friend Lady Henig talked about the chief officer being asked to judge efficiency and effectiveness. There is no question but that the ultimate judgment of efficiency and effectiveness should be made by police authorities. This links into one of their core functions and goes to the heart of their purpose, but that does not mean that a chief police officer should have no regard to these considerations. It is also important to remember that a chief police officer is depended on for his professional judgment of operational effectiveness, and it would be wrong to undervalue the importance of his advice on how policing is best delivered in our communities.
The concern behind these two amendments is that this position should be upheld. Amendment 19 would remove the consideration of efficiency and effectiveness from chief officers, while Amendment 21 would clarify that it was the basis on which police authorities must approve agreements. However, these changes are not necessary as, under the provisions that we are bringing forward, the police authority’s judgment is the deciding one and the police authority would not approve the agreement if it did not consider it to be in the interests of efficiency and effectiveness.
In addition, the amendments may overlook the fact that police forces are expected to deliver efficient and effective services, for which their authorities hold them
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Nothing in Clause 5 contradicts the existing statutory responsibilities of police authorities to deliver an efficient and effective police force, so I suggest that the amendments are unnecessary and ask that they not be pressed.
Baroness Henig: I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, for their support for my amendment. I have listened carefully to what my noble friend has just said. I agree with him that the police authorities have an absolutely central function in ensuring efficiency and effectiveness. I also hear what he says about the chief officer needing to have regard particularly to operational effectiveness. This takes me back to the old days when police officers used to say to us, “That is operational and you can’t interfere”. We have moved on from those days. We have agreed that there are strategic discussions to be had and that the police authority shares with the chief officer the responsibility for strategic oversight and has this very important judgment to make.
I was pleased to hear my noble friend say that the police authorities’ judgment was the deciding judgment. If that is the case, we do not seem to be carrying this logic through. If the police authority has this deciding role, in the interests of clarity that needs to be underlined and made clear in the legislation. I submit, with respect, that the situation is not clearly defined at the moment. I do not totally support my noble friend’s argument, as logic suggests that we should not be afraid of spelling out what this entails, which is that the police authority should be the deciding voice, as my amendment suggests. I will withdraw the amendment, but we might need to return to this at a later stage.
20: Clause 5, page 5, line 22, at end insert—
“( ) A chief officer may make an agreement only after consulting with representatives of police authority employees.”
Lord Campbell-Savours: The Bill has major implications for staff and for the trade union UNISON, which has a substantial membership in staffing grades within police forces. Those comprise a group identified under proposed new Section 23(3) of the 1996 Police Act as civilian employees. My amendment would require chief constables to consult trade union representatives over any proposals for police force collaboration agreements.
I make it clear that I have no relationship of a pecuniary or financial nature whatsoever with UNISON. I simply raise in this House on occasions amendments in which it has an interest because I agree with the position that the union has taken.
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Such agreements, which are being strongly promoted by Home Office Ministers, would see individual forces creating collaborative arrangements to deliver protective services across their respective force areas. This push for collaboration arose from an HMIC assessment that protective services, particularly in relation to serious organised crime, murder or counterterrorism, were patchy across different forces. The union’s concern over collaboration agreements is that they will have major implications for the location and, potentially, terms and conditions of its members who are police staff. Police staff involved in collaborative projects may have to relocate to another force area and come under the management of a different force while remaining the employee of their parent force.
The amendment would require each chief constable to consult his or her UNISON branch to ensure that all workforce matters work properly and are at least properly considered in the context of collaborative plans. The union has discussed the amendment in principle with the Police Minister, Vernon Coaker, and, although the Government indicated that they would not support putting the amendment on the face of the Bill, they had intended that the intention behind the amendment would find expression in the statutory guidance to follow the Act. Therefore, David Taylor MP—a good friend of mine in the other place—tabled the amendment at Report stage in the House of Commons with the aim of this intention being confirmed in Hansard. Unfortunately, the amendment was not debated, due to the volume of business being considered—and, if I might add, due to the inadequate arrangements for scrutiny of legislation in the House of Commons. I hope that my noble friend will look sensitively at this amendment today. I beg to move.
Baroness Harris of Richmond: I have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, but in effect police authorities would most certainly want to talk to their employees because, although they may be under the direction and control of the chief constable, it would be a poor authority that did not look to the interests of its staff and staff associations. I am at a bit of a loss to understand how their terms and conditions might be affected, as I understood the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, to say they might be if staff were moved to a different area. Again, there would have been consultation—certainly in the police authority areas that I know that are good employers—with the police authorities and certainly with the chief constable. If statutory guidance is going to be given under the Bill, I would welcome that, because this needs reinforcing if it is felt that it is lacking at the moment and that the Bill does not cover it.
Lord West of Spithead: I must admit that I have great sympathy with the point made by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours about scrutiny in the other place, but I do not think that I will go there at the moment.
It would be inconsistent with other provisions in the Police Act to include a provision in the clause on police collaboration agreements to mandate consultation with bodies representing employees, as there is no similar provision about consulting them on other strategic
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The essence of the amendment is certainly very good advice, and we encourage the approach, but it does not need to be enshrined in statute. In developing the statutory guidance, unions and staff associations are among the wide range of interested parties being consulted. I might point out that UNISON, which represents the majority of police authority employees, and the Police Federation have both signalled their desire to contribute and are doing so through the Police Advisory Board for England and Wales.
I hope that this gives my noble friend the confidence that he was looking for. I suggest that guidance on the full breadth of consultation appropriate to collaborations, developed with these representative organisations themselves, is the sensible approach. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Campbell-Savours: I will refer the comments of my noble friend to members of UNISON. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, for her comments, too. I thank my noble friend for his response and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Henig: This amendment provides that a police authority must consult its chief officer before entering into an agreement involving employees who are under the direction and control of the chief officer, but it makes it clear that, ultimately, the decision to collaborate must remain with the authority. As the clause in the Bill stands, the words effectively provide chief officers with a mechanism to veto the decision of the authority if there is a disagreement about what is efficient and effective and about whether collaboration agreements should be entered into.
Amendment 22 would maintain an important constitutional and governance line between police authorities and their chief officers. The police authority is the governing body and should not have to obtain the approval of its chief officer before entering into an agreement. I am sure that, from what my noble friend has said on this score previously, he would agree with the logic of what I have just said.
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A consequence of the original drafting could have the effect of reinstating the provision in the old Section 15 of the Police Act 1996, where, in effect, the authority had to get the chief officer’s agreement to provide resources for itself. It is the same sort of logic here and I am sure that we would not want to return to that kind of situation, which is why I am moving this amendment. I want the Bill to restate with more clarity what I am sure is actually intended in terms of collaboration. I beg to move.
6.30 pm
Baroness Harris of Richmond: The amendment is connected to the debate that we have just had about ultimate accountability for ensuring that collaboration happens. This clause did not appear when the Bill was first published; an even more draconian variant was included at the Committee stage in the other place. This was subsequently replaced at the Report stage and Third Reading with the current wording, for which much thanks—or some thanks.
The problem with the clause lies in the complexities of the employment status of police staff. They are employees of the authority but, as long as they are employed to assist the force as opposed to the authority, they remain under the direction and control of the chief officer. Under the collaboration provisions, police authorities are directly responsible for making agreements that relate to support services, including making collaborative arrangements about payroll services, fleet management and so on, but in practice this will be administered by police staff who are under the direction and control of the chief officer.
The clause, therefore, again muddles responsibility and accountability for collaboration. It suggests that a police authority must seek the permission of the chief officer to use staff whom it employs to provide support to an agreement for which it is responsible. This effectively gives chief officers a veto over police authority collaboration agreements. This is totally unacceptable, as it hampers authorities in fulfilling their statutory duty to secure collaboration.
In addition, the current wording would have the effect of reinstating the provision that was in the old Section 15 of the Police Act 1996. This was removed through the Police and Justice Act 2006 but, prior to that, an authority effectively had to get its chief officer’s agreement to provide human resources for itself. I remember that all too well.
The amendment more accurately reflects the situation that should exist, which is that a police authority should consult a chief officer before entering into a collaboration agreement that affects staff who are under his direction and control, but it should not have to seek his permission to collaborate. Noble Lords will require no prompting from me to recognise the absurdity of the situation. The police authority is the governing body of the police force—we keep repeating that—and to suggest that it should have to seek permission from the body that it governs in order to fulfil its own duties is to turn governance completely on its head.
Viscount Bridgeman: Once again the noble Baronesses, Lady Henig and Lady Harris of Richmond, have made a good case for the insertion of the amendment.
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Lord West of Spithead: It is obviously important to ensure that collaboration agreements between police authorities are capable of providing for changes to the use of police staff, and new Section 23A ensures that. However, where a chief officer has direction and control over such police staff, that independent power should be protected and the chief officer should be asked to approve the particular provisions of the agreement that affect the job that they do—not the whole agreement, just the specific details.
The amendment would enable police authorities to include plans for police staff under a collaboration agreement without needing first to get the approval of the chief officer who has been delegated control over them. They are all employees of the police authority, because the police force is not empowered to be an employer. However, to all intents and purposes, they work for the police force under the chief officer’s direction and control. If a chief officer were to challenge a police authority proposal under these provisions, the authority should take account of his concerns. One would expect that such a discussion would follow the normal course of debate between the chief officer and his authority in order to reach an agreement weighing up the concerns of both sides.
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