| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC453
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC453
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC453
Wednesday, 24 June 2009.
Arrangement of Business
Announcement
3.45 pm
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes): Before the Minister moves the first statutory instrument, I remind noble Lords that in the case of each statutory instrument the Motion before the Committee will be that the Committee do consider the statutory instrument in question. I make it clear that the Motion to approve the statutory instrument will be moved in the Chamber in the usual way. I also remind noble Lords that if there is a Division in the Chamber, we need to adjourn immediately for 10 minutes.
Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 (Consequential Modifications) Order 2009
Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 (Consequential Modifications) Order 2009
16th Report - Joint Committee Statutory Instruments
Considered in Grand Committee
3.46 pm
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 (Consequential Modifications) Order 2009.
Lord Brett: If I may, I propose to provide your Lordships with a detailed explanation of the largely technical amendments which this order seeks to achieve.
I do not think that any speech of mine has ever been described as riveting, but I am certainly clear that not many speeches on pensions made by anyone in this world have been described as riveting, unless perhaps delivered to the Institute of Actuaries. Accordingly, I apologise in advance for the thousand or so words that I am going to deliver, and I hope only that I can deliver them all in the order in which they are on the paper and resist my normal temptation, which is to speak too quickly.
The order is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary or expedient changes to UK legislation in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. It is made in consequence of the Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009, which sets out updated arrangements for paying the pensions of Members of the Scottish Parliament and related officeholders. Those officeholders are the Presiding Officer and Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Ministers, including the First Minister and junior Scottish Ministers.
The purpose of the Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 is to place the arrangements for paying the pensions of MSPs and related officeholders on to a
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC454
The order makes minor amendments to ensure that from 1 September 2009, when the Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 comes into full force, aspects of reserved pensions legislation continue to apply appropriately to the existing pension schemes for MSPs and related officeholders, further to changes brought about by the Act once this is fully commenced from 1 September this year.
Prior to the Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009, the pension schemes for MSPs and related officeholders were the subject of a transitional order—the Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Scottish Parliamentary Pension Scheme) Order—made under the Scotland Act 1998. It was always intended that the Scottish Parliament would legislate to put the pension schemes of MSPs and related officeholders on to a more permanent statutory footing. Section 81(3) of the Scotland Act 1998 envisages the Scottish Parliament legislating to replace the transitional arrangements made at the time of devolution. In addition, there have been a number of changes to UK legislation in the reserved areas of the regulation of occupational pensions, tax and equalities which necessitated amendment to the transitional order.
Although Section 81 of the Scotland Act 1998 permits the Scottish Parliament to make provision for the pensions of MSPs and related officeholders by resolution, an Act of the Scottish Parliament was needed in this case to bring about the necessary changes to the transitional order. The Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 continues the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme, subject to new rules set out in Schedule 1 to that Act. These new rules contain provisions for both MSPs and officeholders. The separate unfunded scheme for First Ministers and Presiding Officers set out in the transitional order is continued but is closed to new members, who will be covered by the new rules of the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme.
The two amendments in the Section 104 order are of a technical nature. They are required to ensure that certain reserved regulatory controls continue to apply appropriately to the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme and the existing First Minister and Presiding Officer pension scheme, once the Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 is fully in place. The first amendment is to Section 11(7) of the Pensions Act 1995 and ensures that the Pensions Regulator continues, in limited circumstances, to have the power to adapt, amend or repeal the legislation that contains the rules of the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme and the First Minister and the Presiding Officer pension scheme.
The second amendment is to Section 249A(3) of the Pensions Act 2004, which requires the trustees or managers of occupational pension schemes to establish and operate internal controls. Section 249A(3) sets out various types of schemes that are exempt from that obligation. That includes schemes which are established under an enactment and are guaranteed by a public authority, and the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme,
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC455
Noble Lords may also wish to note that, in addition to this order, it is proposed that two sets of regulations will be made by UK Ministers, further to the Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009. The Department for Work and Pensions is currently consulting on drafts of these regulations and will take forward the Occupational Pension Scheme (Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009) Regulations and the Occupational Pension Scheme (Public Service Pension Schemes) Regulations. The latter of these two sets of regulations will be made jointly by the Department for Work and Pensions and HM Treasury.
The Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 was the product of a committee Bill brought forward by the Scottish Parliament. It is intended that the newly appointed fund trustees of the Scottish parliamentary contributory pension fund will issue guidance to the members of the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme on the new scheme rules, which are effective from 1 September 2009.
This order demonstrates the Government’s commitment to working with the Scottish Parliament to make the devolution settlement work. I hope noble Lords will agree that this order is a sensible use of the powers in the Scotland Act and that the practical result is something to be welcomed. I commend the order to the Committee.
The Duke of Montrose: I thank the Minister for doing such an exemplary job of taking us through the inner workings of the modification of this order. The routine being followed is an example of proper forethought by the parliamentary draftsmen of the Scotland Act in foreseeing areas where a split responsibility might cause problems. That is one reason why we have gone through this amazing jungle of sections that apply.
Did I understand the Minister to say that the present scheme under which the Presiding Officer and the First Minister receive their pensions is somehow being brought to a close, and that they will then be incorporated under the provisions that will be in place when this order is brought in? If that scheme is brought to a close, do we have any idea what the current liability is under it, or is it a continuing liability that will simply be built on by the new scheme when it comes in?
I am grateful to the Minister for giving us at least the title for the further two sets of proposed regulations. I do not know if anything more can be said to explain what they might contain—I took it from what he said that perhaps the Department for Work and Pensions is not quite sure what they will contain at the moment—but any indication about that might be useful, as well as
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC456
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: These Benches also thank the Minister for introducing the order. I think it is the first time, either in Committee or in the House, that I have seen a bench of officials that is entirely female, which is very nice. I look forward to the day when we have not only a bench of officials that is entirely female but a female Minister as well.
We broadly support this measure. However, I heard the noble Lord say that there is a separate unfunded pension scheme for Scottish Ministers, which is indeed the case here down south in the United Kingdom. I am not as familiar as I should be with the scheme for MSPs. Is there a separate funded scheme and, if so, what is the contribution that their employers—the Scottish taxpayer—make to the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme as a percentage of Members’ salaries?
Lord Brett: I thank noble Lords for their contributions. The only question I will not attempt to answer—it may have been an observation from the noble Lord—concerns the officials behind me. I think it comes fairly close to being sexist as a remark and is not one that I know my partner would appreciate, were it said about her. Comments about a Minister are matters of judgment and I am sure that in that sense he is perfectly correct.
I shall attempt to deal with the questions in the order that they were asked. Why is the existing First Minister pension scheme now being closed? The Scottish parliamentary pension scheme committee concluded that the existing First Minister and Presiding Officer pension schemes should be closed to future members and that future holders of these offices should be subject to the same pension arrangements as those applicable to Scottish Ministers. This is consistent with the pension arrangements for similar officeholders in the Welsh Assembly and recommendations by the SSRB in its triennial review of parliamentary pay and pensions published in January 2008. Under the 2009 Act, the new rules of the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme make specific provision for a category of officeholder members of the scheme. These officeholders include persons who in future will hold the offices of Presiding Officer, Deputy Presiding Officer, Scottish Minister and junior Scottish Minister.
Reference was made to the cost implications of the changes brought about by the Act. The Government Actuary’s Department has costed the revised parliamentary scheme in Scotland against the existing scheme. This review showed that the expected cost of the scheme under the new rules will not be materially different from that under the existing rules. The precise point of the question concerned the closure of the existing First Minister and Presiding Officer schemes to future officeholders. It is expected that this will
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC457
As regards what is meant by unfunded schemes, the existing scheme is non-contributory. Pension payments under that scheme are paid from the Scottish Consolidated Fund on a pay-as-you-go basis. That scheme will be closed to new entrants from 1 September, leaving only those pensions in payment, or those due to existing officeholders, to be met under the scheme. There is provision in the new pension scheme rules for the Scottish parliamentary pension scheme for future holders of the offices to be officeholder members in the scheme. As such, they will make contributions under the new scheme rules.
Reference was also made to taking forward the regulations. I suggest that will be done by the Department for Work and Pensions, although I cannot be precise about that. The point of the consultation is to find out the best way forward. Of the two sets one will be taken forward by the DWP and the other by the Treasury. They will make a number of consequential amendments to secondary legislation to ensure that the existing Scottish parliamentary pension scheme and First Minister and Presiding Officer pension schemes continue to be treated as public service pension schemes further to the changes to them brought about by the 2009 Act. It will be when those regulations are drawn up that the question of the parliamentary procedure to be adopted will be determined.
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: If the noble Lord seriously thinks that what I said was sexist, frankly that is just political correctness gone mad. It was a positive encouragement. I am bound to say, since he takes that ridiculous attitude, that the flow of paper coming from his officials showed quite clearly that they knew far more about what was going on than he did. Perhaps I am being unfair, but that is a ridiculous reaction and I hope that, on reflection, he withdraws it.
I do not expect the noble Lord necessarily to know now, but I ask him to undertake to write to me about what the employer—that is, the Scottish taxpayer—contribution is expected to be when the new scheme comes in. The cost of public sector pensions is a matter of great public interest and I hope that he will take his responses a bit more seriously and undertake to write to me with that information.
Lord Brett: I thank the noble Lord. I am more than happy to withdraw any imputation in the light of his comments. The question of whether one is being polite across this or any other Chamber is in the eyes and ears of the beholder and observer. I will certainly take his point on board and will write to him in due course.
The Duke of Montrose: On the question of the winding up of the scheme for the First Minister and Presiding Officer, will the Scottish Executive have to hold funds against liability under that scheme separately from those of the ongoing scheme?
Lord Brett: The short answer is that I will take advice and write to the noble Duke on the matter.
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC458
European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2009
European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2009
16th Report - Joint Committee Statutory Instruments
Considered in Grand Committee
4.01 pm
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2009.
Lord Brett: The order was laid before the House on 1 June 2009, together with an Explanatory Memorandum, as required for all affirmative statutory instruments. The draft order will confer the legal capacities of a body corporate and privileges and immunities upon the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere, also known as the European Southern Observatory. The order also confers privileges and immunities on representatives of the states parties, the director-general and officials of the organisation.
These privileges and immunities are conferred in accordance with the agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the European Southern Observatory concerning the accession to the convention establishing a European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere and related terms and conditions, which was signed on behalf of the United Kingdom on 21 May 2002. The ESO convention obliges the United Kingdom to abide by the terms of the instruments of the ESO, including its multilateral protocol on privileges and immunities. The order implements those obligations in UK law.
The ESO was created in 1962 and currently has 14 member states, the UK becoming a member in 2002. It is the pre-eminent intergovernmental science and technology organisation in ground-based astronomy. It carries out an ambitious programme focused on the design, construction and operation of powerful ground-based observing facilities for astronomy, to enable important scientific discoveries. The ESO employs about 700 staff members across the world. Its headquarters, comprising scientific, technical and admin divisions, are located in Garching, which is near Munich, in Germany; however, its observatories are located in Chile. The ESO operates three world-class observing sites in the Atacama desert region of Chile: La Silla, Paranal and Chajantor.
Through the ESO, the UK is playing a critical role. The UK’s industry and research community is delivering key elements of the global project through provision of novel construction materials and the construction and testing of receivers and support systems. The UK is playing a significant role in the ESO’s development of the European extremely large telescope—E-ELT—a proposed 42-metre-diameter facility planned to be
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC459
The ESO is funded through the contributions of member states—approximately €130 million, with the UK's contribution in 2008 about €24 million. In addition to access to the most advanced ground- based optical observatory in the world, UK membership of the ESO brings to the UK an industrial return which will form the basis for training a new generation of technologists in a wide range of disciplines contributing to the strength of the UK's research base. The industrial return amounted to €14 million in 2008, 25 per cent of all the contracts and second in scale only to Germany.
The order, and a similar order to be passed by the Scottish Parliament covering devolved issues, will allow the United Kingdom Government to comply with their international obligations in giving full effect to the protocol on privileges and immunities for the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere.
I am satisfied that the order is compatible with the European Convention of Human Rights. It is important and, I trust, non-controversial. I hope that it will receive the full support of the House.
Lord Astor of Hever: I thank the Minister for explaining this order; it was covered in some detail in the other place. It puts into effect in this country an existing multilateral protocol on privileges and immunities agreed by the original parties to the European Organisation for Astronomical Research and signed in Paris in 1974. When the United Kingdom joined the organisation in 2002, it also became a signatory to that multilateral agreement, and this instrument is designed to give legal force to those obligations. The European Southern Observatory facility in the Atacama desert in Chile has, for instance, a new technology telescope that, using active optics, can compensate for atmospheric conditions. It also has a very large telescope—VLT—array consisting of four eight-metre telescopes. There are also plans to build a European extremely large telescope.
Those projects have pushed back the limit of observable space and have made notable discoveries, which include Gliese 581e—the lightest exoplanet yet found, just under twice the size of earth but more than 20 light years away—evidence of a black hole at the centre of our galaxy, and what is possibly the furthest galaxy ever seen. All that comes from facilities 2,400 metres up in the middle of the driest desert in the world, in northern Chile. If it sounds like a set from a James Bond film, that is because it was; in “Quantum of Solace”, the baddie, Dominic Greene, chose the ESO facility in Chile as his hideout.
The European Southern Observatory is a world-class asset from which British astronomy gains enormously, and which benefits Britain’s world-class scientists. As such, this statutory instrument is uncontroversial. However, as the measure constitutes an international treaty, I would like to ask some questions on some
24 Jun 2009 : Column GC460
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Brett, on his instant transformation from dealing with northern Britain to the southern hemisphere. We have no objection in principle to this order, but perhaps I may ask him—to be honest, as much for my information as for anything else—who are the members of the European Organisation for Astronomical Research, what is its budget, what currency is the budget fixed in and for how long, what proportion of it does Britain pay, and whether he will briefly explain the benefits of Britain’s membership.
Lord Brett: I thank noble Lords for their broad support for the project and the questions that they have posed. Why is the order required? It is because the UK, in acceding to the convention established for this organisation, is to abide by the terms of the instruments of the ESO including the international protocols signed by the organisation with other member states. There are 14 member states: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom.
On the noble Lord’s detailed questions on budgets, I have given the information for 2008 on the UK’s total spend. On the other, quite legitimate, points he raised, it will be easier for me to write to him, if that is satisfactory, and set out the answers in some detail.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |