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Thursday, 25 June 2009.
11 am
Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham.
Internet: Over-60s
Question
11.06 am
Asked By Baroness Rendell of Babergh
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that people over the age of 60 are able to access the internet.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord Young of Norwood Green): My Lords, the Digital Britain report, published on 16 June 2009, sets out our plans for increasing digital participation, including for the over-60s, who make up a large proportion of those not online. Furthermore, there is our universal service commitment to ensure that broadband is available across the UK. Two megabits per second will ensure that virtually every household can have access, if it wants it. One of the key priorities for the work of the champion for digital inclusion and her expert task force, announced on 16 June, will be the 65 and over group.
Baroness Rendell of Babergh: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer. Does he agree that those without internet access in their 60s, and especially those over 70, who often come into a lower income group and who may be housebound, miss out on the advantages of cheaper rail fares, cheaper car insurance, choosing their own seats on flights, certain discounts and bargains on food and other retail items? According to the American Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry, internet activity boosts brain power in older people rather more than reading books, I am sorry to say. Is my noble friend aware that Age Concern runs 150 drop-in facilities which offer training in online use to people in their 60s, 70s and 80s?
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for those pertinent questions. I would demur about the benefits of books versus computers. I think both have their part to play—
A noble Lord: Particularly crime novels.
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says. We are certainly aware of the numerous benefits and activities which older people miss out on because they are not online. They have much to gain. They miss out on keeping in touch with family and friends; organising household and personal paperwork, bills and direct debits; and they certainly miss out on some of the cheapest offers for air fares and train fares, enjoying interests, hobbies, education,
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Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I shall finish on this point. Research shows that using the internet can save an individual around £23 a month or around £270 annually.
Baroness Greengross: My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is another reason why older people need access to the internet, which is that telecare in various forms and care services can be brought to the very frail if they have adequate access to all forms of IT? It is very basic and not difficult to learn how to use those services, which are essential to a lot of people and will be in the future.
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness about the potential for helping the elderly, for example, by telecare healthcare. That is why we are working closely with Age Concern, which runs computer literacy courses for older people, and we have announced our digital champion, Martha Lane Fox, who is going to focus on this area.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, mentioned that a lot of people are housebound. Does the Minister think there is a place for volunteers to help such people to make sure they know how to use the internet? Are we not extremely fortunate in this House to have PICT to help us when we come unstuck with the internet?
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness about the benefits we have—for those who are willing to take them up, of course—and the idea of targeted outreach to connect the vulnerable and elderly, introduce them to the online world and give them advice. One of the biggest drivers of getting people who are sometimes described as silver surfers online is the grandchild effect, which often persuades many of our more mature citizens to embark on the joys of cyberspace.
Lord Cotter: My Lords, would the Minister not agree that it is a question of encouraging access? There is a generation gap; the older generation feels that the internet is for younger people. Would the Government encourage a high-profile publicity campaign—we currently see Michael Winner promoting car insurance, although I think I would probably listen more to somebody like Joanna Lumley—linked with local provision in libraries, mobile libraries or wherever, to encourage people in the older generation to get the training and the chance to implement it?
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords—
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I try to go for a short response, but not that short. We agree with the need to do that. That is why we have appointed Martha Lane Fox, who started lastminute.com, as the champion for digital inclusion with a remit to speak up for the digitally and socially excluded. We are confident that she will do a good job. The £100 million
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Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, as a person over 60, I am continually bombarded with spam emails? They are always the same and are usually about penile extensions, Viagra or inkjet cartridges. Do I look like a man who requires inkjet cartridges?
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, serendipitous engagement is part of the sheer joy of the internet, but some of the spam can be blocked.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, does the Minister not think it a little unfair to ask elderly people who do not use the internet to pay an extra tax on their telephone bills?
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, that was one of the conclusions in the Digital Britain report. It is a fairly modest contribution. We have to weigh it against the greater good. Extending internet access across the whole of the UK would give a benefit of something like £270 annually. The greater good makes it worth while.
The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords—
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, we are almost in the eighth minute. We should move on.
Wellington Barracks
Question
11.14 am
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for the future of Wellington barracks.
The Minister for International Defence and Security (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My Lords, as I told the House on 8 October last year, usage of the defence estate is reviewed continuously. However, under current plans, Wellington barracks will remain the key location in London for the execution of state, ceremonial and public duties for the foreseeable future. There are no plans to dispose of Wellington barracks.
Baroness Sharples: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. Is she aware that, with my noble friend Lord Lyell and the noble Lord, Lord Lee of Trafford, I visited Wellington barracks last year, following up on a visit the previous year? We were very well looked after. Is the noble Baroness further aware that someone said, “Last year it was very grotty and this year it is merely grotty”? Work is some weeks behind. Does she agree that the uncertainty about future funding is very worrying? Finally, is she aware that the basement area where the cars are kept is still flooding?
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Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I am aware of the visit and also of some improvements that have been made, which the group who visited has acknowledged. The drainage problems and major defects have been identified, the junior ranks mess has been significantly improved and there have been significant changes. There are still problems and there is still work to be done. Money is tight and it has been decided, as far as concerns the defence estates, to concentrate on living accommodation rather than band accommodation. I know that that disappoints some people, but it reflects a priority that most would accept.
Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, I will never forget my visit to Wellington barracks with the noble Baroness, because I got stuck in a lift with the top brass and officials, and it took a good five or six minutes to get out. The occasion is etched indelibly in my memory. Is not the problem with Wellington barracks indicative of the fact that the defence budget is in serious trouble? Does the noble Baroness agree that the nation now has to choose either to put more resources into defence and remain a premier military power, or to drop down to a superior, very effective but still second-division military power?
Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I am aware of the fact that the delegation got stuck in a lift. Those who were present had—shall we say?—a little extended briefing. I have been assured that the flick relay component that caused the problem has been fixed and that the lift is now functioning. I am sure that that will reassure any Member of the House who visits in future.
As for the defence budget, I remind the House that we are spending £35.4 billion on defence, which does not include the significant cost of operations. By 2010-11, the defence budget will be 10 per cent higher in real terms than it was in 1997. As that marks the longest period of sustained growth since the 1980s, it should be reassuring.
Lord Taverne: My Lords, in relation to planning inquiries and the future of barracks, does the noble Baroness not agree that it is an outrageous abuse of his position for a member of the Royal Family to seek to influence another royal family in order to secure his preferred solution to a planning inquiry?
Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I anticipated that that question might be asked and decided that it would be wiser not to comment.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I thank the Minister for her helpful comments. The noble Lord, Lord Lee, pointed out that there were considerable problems with the Ministry of Defence budget. The Minister is doing a great job but can she please push on with one of the last elements, about which I shall let her department know? I was very encouraged that she mentioned the figure of 10 per cent for the next financial year 2010-11. That will be a considerable help to the new arrivals at Wellington barracks. We thank her for that. Will she please keep us posted on the details?
Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, the 10 per cent figure was the total growth in defence budgets since 1997. I am sure that noble Lords who have visited Wellington barracks will keep a close eye on
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As to the future, I am sure that the whole House will be aware that my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Kevan Jones, announced earlier this week that there would be an advance of £50 million this year from the Treasury to improve service accommodation. Those funds will allow us to target improvements in accommodation for those returning from operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, which I think we would all welcome.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the noble Baroness said that the flick relay mechanism had gone phut in Wellington barracks, thus causing a great deal of embarrassment for the senior staff and some of your Lordships who were guests. She says that it has now been repaired. What makes the noble Baroness think that it will not flick again causing equal embarrassment on some other occasion?
Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I doubt that the lifts in Wellington barracks are any less or any more reliable than some in this House.
Olympic Games 2012: Shooting
Question
11.21 am
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to publish the paper presented by the Government Olympic Executive to the Olympic Board on 19 March on the issue of the suitability of Bisley as a venue for the shooting discipline at the 2012 London Olympic Games.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I understand that there was a detailed discussion on Tuesday evening between the London Organising Committee of the 2012 Olympic Games and Paralympic Games, the Olympic Delivery Authority, representatives from the National Shooting Centre at Bisley and a number of noble Lords. At that meeting LOCOG and the ODA set out in detail the basis of the Olympic Board’s decision to confirm Woolwich as the venue for the 2012 shooting events. The Government are committed to securing a positive legacy from the shooting events in 2012 and will work with British Shooting, among others, to maximise the opportunities for the sport beyond 2012.
Lord Addington: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Will he confirm that the Government will encourage the Olympics wherever possible to undertake that type of briefing on any future issues? Will he also take this opportunity to confirm that it is the job of the Olympic movement to deliver a successful Games and to leave a legacy from those Games? The creation of white elephants would damage the idea and the spirit behind the Olympics, which surely must be the greatest legacy.
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I largely agree with the noble Lord. It is important that we have a successful Games, a major feature of which should be the legacy. However, the legacy is not just about bricks and mortar; it is about raising the profile of the sport. Having shooting close to the Olympic village and part, therefore, of the integrity of the Olympic Games will raise that profile, to say nothing of the fact that Woolwich barracks are both historic and located in a main urban area. We want to spread the appreciation of shooting as a sport and the venue will help in that respect.
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, I was at that meeting with Members of this House and the other place. It was far from conclusive. Will the Minister urgently invite LOCOG to look again at the presentation shown by British Shooting on 16 February—it was seemingly dismissed as inaccurate information—that demonstrated that the Olympic shooting events can still be staged at Bisley, within existing boundaries, in time and on budget, if LOCOG now fully engages with British Shooting and its consultants? Would that not leave a much better legacy of a world-class centre for the next Commonwealth Games, international and national events and training, as well as military marksmanship?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I do not accept my noble friend’s contention with regard to his last points. I was not present at the meeting, but I would be astonished if it had not been made definitively clear that Woolwich is the decision. The shooting is to be located at Woolwich for very good reasons, which have been explained. As I understand it, the purpose of the meeting was partly to define that situation.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, the noble Lord talks about legacy. As far as I am aware, the only legacy that is proposed is the kit to be used for the shooting event. With whom is the ministry in contact in the British shooting world to make sure that the kit that is specified and ordered is suitable for dispersal to local shooting clubs, or in some other way, to provide a legacy? That clearly must be a crucial decision. Following on from what the Minister said, has the ministry any other legacy proposals?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, as I have indicated, the most valuable legacy of the Games is to encourage people, particularly young people, to participate in the vast range of sports that the Olympics represent. I understand exactly the point made by the noble Lord. We consider the physical legacy from the shooting range at Woolwich to be at least as extensive as anything from Bisley. We do not see a great deal of legacy for the future in Bisley. That is one reason why this decision has been taken. However, I entirely accept that, as the noble Lord says, if the legacy is to be promoted effectively in terms of shooting kits and encouragement of the sport, the relationship between the Olympic authorities and British Shooting and all shooting groups must improve on what has obviously obtained in recent months.
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