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Lord Cotter: I think there is a very strong feeling in this Chamber today about the importance of my noble friend's amendment. Coming from a business background, I feel that there is a great need for consultation not just on local issues, but with the particular requirements of particular businesses in mind.
Lord De Mauley: Like other noble Lords who have spoken, we feel that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has brought forward some very important amendments in this group. The support from these Benches for Amendments 93, 104 and 105 will be clear from the fact that my noble friend Lady Verma and I have added our names to them.
We have already expressed concern that the involvement of employers and the sector skills councils should be more explicitly laid out in the Bill. Will the Minister not accept that it would be sensible for the authority responsible for securing suitable education and training in the local area to have to consult with local employers and their representatives? It seems to me that this holistic approach would help to ensure that training was suitable not only for those who are going to receive it, but also for those local employers who hope to benefit from having an increasingly skilled workforce.
As the Bill stands, the local authority must already "have regard to" a number of sensible measures, including encouraging diversity in the education and training available, and increasing opportunities for people to choose the programme most suited to them. These are admirable provisions, but they are all from the focus of the learner as the receiver. We think it would also be helpful to have an employer-led influence on this process. The Government themselves have used the expression "demand-led". We think this is what "demand-led" means.
Amendment 93 would secure that, at the very least, consultation with employers and their representatives would have to take place. In this way, employers could hope to have a direct influence on courses of training and education. Does the Minister not accept that this approach would help local communities match skills to real jobs, which would then help to increase employment? We would argue that, particularly at this time of economic difficulty, it seems not only appropriate, but, indeed, urgent that the Government should do all they can to increase the education, training and skills of our population. The critical focus of this skilling-up should be on how best to match these skills to real jobs, so it seems appropriate that the LEA should have to consult employers and their representatives on the availability and suitability of provision within their area.
Amendments 104 and 105 further develop this point. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has pointed out, the Bill already states that LEAs must encourage employers to participate in the provision of education and training, so we support the idea that this should also include consultation with employers and their representatives. As it stands, the Bill seems to require only a one-way dialogue. The LEA must "encourage" employers to participate in this provision. We on these Benches would argue that this is completely to miss the point. It is important that there is a two-way
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Amendments 182, 183 and 188 mean that employers and their representatives must also be included in the consultation process for those areas where the chief executive of Skills Funding is responsible for education. This also seems to be a sensible approach to an area that, after all, must be employer-focused and employer-led. I look forward to the Minister's response.
Baroness Morris of Bolton: I, too, support the amendments. The LEAs will require all the help that they can get to secure these places. I say that not least because I read today in Children & Young People Now that staff will be transferred from the Learning and Skills Council, but that in some places there are no staff, only a massive number of vacancies-for example, in the London area. Will the Minister say what will happen? They will not be transferring staff from the LSC to the local authorities, they will be transferring vacancies, so how will the staff be able to undertake all the extra tasks that they have got to do?
Baroness Blackstone: On the face of it, this is a rather sensible group of amendments. Obviously it is very important for LEAs to consult sector skills councils. They are probably a better route than employers' groups because they think very carefully about education and training needs. My experience of consulting employers more generally is that they are sometimes not terribly clued up about what particular types of education and training are required for the sort of jobs which they seek to fill. However, I am not sure whether this really has to be in the Bill.
I have no idea what the Minister will say, but I am not absolutely convinced by the amendment in that I cannot believe that any local education authority that takes on this general duty, which is what the clause is about, could properly do its job of developing sensible routes down which it should go to ensure that those in the immediate post-compulsory age group of 16 to 18 year-olds have the right opportunities for education and training. I absolutely support the spirit that lies behind this, but it is probably best to consult the sector skills councils than an all-embracing category of employers.
The other point is that social work is, and needs to be, an all-graduate profession, so I am not sure that apprenticeship is the best route for people who will be social workers, although there is a strong case for having an apprenticeship route for those who will be in support roles in residential care for children or the elderly, a small percentage of whom might want to go on to be social workers. That, rather than an apprenticeship for social work per se, is the right way in which to approach this.
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The Earl of Listowel: I thank the noble Baroness for what she has said. I quite agree that it has been very important to raise the status of social work by introducing a degree. I also quite agree that it is also very important that we recognise that child and family social workers must have a sound understanding of the law and make sound analytical decisions about children in families.
I also hear what the noble Baroness says about certain other circumstances. It has been put to me that it is important to have an apprenticeship route into social work as a starting point from which there is an opportunity to move to a higher academic level-to degree level-so I agree absolutely with what she said. My argument is that at the beginning there might be a foundation stage. One would not be a qualified social worker, but one would take steps towards being one. That would be the apprenticeship aspect of the qualification. The Open University already offers that sort of apprentice first step into social work.
There might have been a little absurdity in what I said about local education authorities consulting local authorities about availability, but I simply want to be reassured that they will look inward as well as outward.
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Baroness Perry of Southwark: I have just had a brief thought on what the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, said about consultation. It is perfectly true that the sector skills councils are where the serious thinking about the nature of training and so on is going on, and consultation with them is key and a starting point. Nevertheless, further education colleges are, by their nature, local institutions and it is the local employers, on the whole, who will be providing the apprenticeships. They are the ones who have to be engaged sufficiently to understand the value of providing apprenticeships. My experience of negotiating with employers is that this is the last thing on their list of priorities. They have other urgent priorities in keeping their businesses afloat and they need a lot of persuasion and engagement if they are going to make a real success of the apprenticeship scheme. So I have a great deal of sympathy with the idea of consulting local employers, getting to know them and pushing ahead in their minds the importance of the apprenticeships that they will offer.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord Young of Norwood Green): These amendments mirror the focus of the debate that we had on our second day in Committee concerning consultation between the National Apprenticeship Service-as part of the Skills Funding Agency-employers, sector skills councils and others. I share the view that local authorities, when engaging in the commissioning process and drawing up plans, need to encourage employers to participate. We could have a semantic debate about exactly what that means but I do not want to. I agree with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that we want employers to be involved in the consultative process-and not just employers but also sector skills councils and others. The noble Baroness, Lady Perry,
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We all agree that partnership working is the way ahead and that consultation will take place. By its very nature as a customer-focused service, having insights into employer needs and getting feedback from employers will be central to the delivery of services by the National Apprenticeship Service and, indeed, all the other services that will be housed within the Skills Funding Agency. This means that active engagement with employers and others will be a part of its core activity. We have already said that we will reflect further on whether direct reference should be made in the Bill to consultation by the chief executive of skills funding with employers, sector skills councils and others, and I repeat our genuine commitment to reflect on that.
Employers will also have a key role to play alongside local authorities in ensuring that there are sufficient high-quality training options for learners, improving the choice available to young people and ensuring that they have a range of options to choose from. We are putting in place arrangements to ensure that this engagement happens at every level, although we have tended to focus on employers, and I understand exactly why we are doing that. The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, spoke about their role and said that we talk about a demand-led process. We do and we stand by that. But "demand-led" does not just mean employers; it means learners as well. We have to embrace both if we are serious about reflecting on and reaching the needs of young people-and not-so-young people-in this process. I make a plea that in this debate we do not forget, when we talk about this being demand-led, that we are embracing not just employers but also learners.
Clause 41 places a new duty on local authorities to encourage employers to participate in the provision and delivery of post-16 education and training. I echo the point made by my noble friend Lady Blackstone that it is hard to envisage a local authority that would not want to engage with employers, who, after all, are going to be the source of wealth generation within their communities. It is vital that they are brought into a consultative process.
Local authorities are well placed to perform that duty. They have a wealth of experience in dealing with employers, particularly through their education business partnerships and their existing local strategic partnerships. Employers are also critical members of consortia and the 14 to 19 partnerships in delivering 14 to 19 reforms in local areas. When we talk about employers being engaged at every level, we mean that; indeed, they already are. At a regional level, the employer voice will be heard through the regional development agencies and membership of the regional planning groups, which have an interest in ensuring that the economic and skills agency for the region is reflected in local authority commissioning plans.
That said, the arguments in relation to consultation with employers by local authorities are different from those that apply at the national level to the chief executive of skills funding. The main relationship with
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While I understand that you might want to include a direct duty on local authorities to consult local businesses on the exercise of their duties under new Section 15ZA, we need to look at how that will function and whether there really is that need to do it in that way. First, it is a natural consequence of the duty in Clause 41 on encouraging local businesses to provide apprenticeships and other training that there will be a consultative dialogue. Secondly, this dialogue is already happening through the education business partnerships, existing local strategic partnerships and, at a regional level, the regional development agencies. It would seem unnecessarily burdensome to overlay that with a further requirement to consult. Thirdly, there is already an expectation that local authorities will consult their communities on issues that affect them, which they would do anyway in the normal course of events. Finally, employers will also be involved in co-operation arrangements with colleges through the duties in Clause 248, which were introduced by amendment in another place. I hope that all this reassures the Committee about the centrality of employers to these reforms.
I turn now to specific points that have been made and, first, to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. I agree that chambers of commerce have an important role to play. Last year, I spent a lot of time going around them when they were dealing with things like skills pledges. They will have a seat on the employer reference group. In addition, the Secretary of State will issue guidance to the Skills Funding Agency about whom it should consult. We expect that to include the CBI, the British Chambers of Commerce and, probably, the Federation of Small Businesses.
At the moment, I do not think that I am empowered to deal with the noble Lord's point about jobcentres and managers. If I had a view, I would not necessarily dismiss the approach, but I would say that we should ensure that jobcentres are able to respond to the circumstances that currently prevail and to deal with a wide range of people. I know that some of those who go into jobcentres and agencies are people who would not normally have been expected to be in that situation. We need to look at how that service is being provided.
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The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, asked about LSC staff transferring to local authorities. We are still working to match LSC staff to posts in local authorities. We must and will ensure that local authorities have the skills to conduct these functions. If there are vacancies, we will identify them in time to enable local authorities to access staff with the right skills before the transfer is effected, subject to the passage of the Bill. We take on board the noble Baroness's point-we have to deal with the vacancy situation.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked about apprenticeships in social work. That is being considered by the social work task force. We are talking about a work-based qualification. I noted the range of views that were expressed on this issue. I share the perspective of the noble Earl, who said that we should not rule out an apprenticeship route. We may in the end determine that a degree is required, but a vocational route would seem to be of benefit in attracting a wide range of people to social services. That is not to denigrate in any way the requirement for degree qualifications.
In conclusion, I say that wherever you look in the process of commissioning and engagement, we are involving employers. I stress that we need to ensure also that young people between 14 and 19 have real choice through information, advice and guidance. We want to ensure that the autonomous providers-schools with sixth forms, FE colleges, academies, private training providers-can each determine their capacity, ethos, curriculum and methods of delivery, own their own buildings and land and employ their own staff. They clearly possess autonomy and are involved in the commissioning process. Local authorities are strategic leaders in their area, bringing a holistic view to the commissioning of all services for young people. Employers, as I said, engage through local strategic partnerships, which drive local area agreements.
I repeat our commitment in relation to putting sector skills councils in the Bill. We indicated our concern not to introduce anything that would make the Bill a hybrid. We will look at that concern. I repeat also our assurance that we are as concerned as all noble Lords to ensure that there is a clear understanding. We are talking not just about participation by employers but about making sure that they are involved in the consultation process. We will look also at that and come back to noble Lords to make clear exactly where employers will be involved in the commissioning process.
Lord De Mauley: Does the Minister accept that these amendments would not turn the Bill into a hybrid?
Lord Young of Norwood Green: Certainly they have been framed in a way that specifically does not mention sector skills councils. I do not feel absolutely confident, but clearly that was the intention. I assure noble Lords that I am not attempting to dismiss the amendments on those grounds.
We understand noble Lords' concerns that we get this right. I have tried to make the point that, when we are talking about consulting, with each local authority consulting sector skills councils, we need to get that
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I repeat the two commitments that we have made on this issue, in relation to employers and the role of sector skills councils. I hope, in pointing out the areas where employers are already both represented and part of that commissioning process, that the mover of the amendment will be prepared to withdraw it. We will come back before the Report stage. That is a clear commitment.
12.15 pm
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and to all Members of the Committee who have supported me on these amendments. The Minister made the important point that we are talking not just about participation but about involvement. The noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, said that she does not think that this needs to be in the Bill. I think that this notion of consultation does need to be in the Bill, because of this element of involvement. That would be very helpful. I take on board the fact that the Minister is thinking hard about whether we can accommodate the sector skills councils. I would point out that, as far as Amendment 93 is concerned, we are not suggesting that local authorities need to consult all the sector skills councils. The amendment says "including, where appropriate" the sector skills councils, and it would be only those sector skills councils that were involved with the particular industries in the locality-at least, that is what I envisage.
I think that the notion of consultation is important. A great many employer organisations have been talking to many of us about their feeling that employers are a little bit taken for granted. Clause 40 is all about local education authorities having to take a view on what is needed in the provision of education for 16 to 18 year-olds in their area. I agree that "demand-led" refers both to employers and to young people-that is also important-but to some extent young people vote with their feet. We need to know that, if there is a shortage of a particular skill in an area, that is taken into account in the planning process. That is where the whole process of consultation comes in. I am grateful to the Minister for his commitment to think about this further and bring it back. With those assurances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Rix: As your Lordships know, the Bill transfers the duty to secure learning provision for 16 to 19 year-olds from the Learning and Skills Council to local authorities. LEAs will specifically have regard to the learning difficulties of their population of learners in determining
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Despite these clear limits on what LEAs have a duty to provide, the Bill offers a further qualification for LEAs to avoid post-16 education provision that gives rise to "disproportionate expenditure". I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, who has already expressed our shared fundamental concern about this issue, and indeed our amendments could well have been debated together. I ought to clarify that the Special Educational Consortium shares our discomfort with the term "disproportionate expenditure", particularly in relation to local education authorities, and agrees that reference to it should be deleted from Clause 40 altogether, as per this amendment.
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