| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
6 July 2009 : Column 482
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: I shall not add much to what has been said because my noble friend Lady Stern and the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, have put the case extremely well. Having had conversations with some of the sex workers who were here last week, it is quite clear that there is still huge concern about the actions that can be taken-and, indeed, are sometimes taken-under these circumstances. As we all know, children as well as the sex workers themselves can be made homeless, and it is important that the Government take this fully into account when proposing legislation of this kind.
5.15 pm
Lord Brett: I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, for trying to expedite our procedures. We seem to have a single grouping now that previously was two groupings. I shall try to respond to all the amendments because, as the noble Baroness said, there is a certain logic in moving them en bloc.
Amendments 73 and 75 are the first of a number of amendments that relate to Schedule 2, which sets up the process for imposing the closure of premises to stop activities relating to certain pornography-related and prostitution-related offences from taking place. Indeed, as the noble Baroness has pointed out, Amendments 73, 75, 78, 80 and 82 have been recommended by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which has commented on the need for appropriate safeguards in these provisions to prevent the inappropriate use of closure orders. We take seriously the points raised by the committee, and I assure the noble Baroness that we share her aim of ensuring that these orders are targeted only at premises where serious criminal activity involving prostitution or child pornography has taken place.
We understand the reasons underlying the committee's concerns but we do not believe that its particular concerns relating to the closure orders are justified. While I also appreciate the points that the noble Baronesses have raised on this issue, I assure them that the amendments are unnecessary. We believe that the provisions already contain sufficient safeguards against the inappropriate use of closure orders.
It is important to reiterate why these new powers are so important. Currently, if the police suspect that premises are being used for activities related to prostitution or child pornography offences, the police may enter the premises and arrest those who are committing the offences. However, unless the premises are associated with the use of class A drugs, persistent disorder or nuisance, the police are powerless to prevent the premises from reopening once they have left. The provisions are intended to address that issue.
Amendments 73 and 75 would oblige the police to ensure that consultation has taken place with and that they have regard to the views of people identified as having an interest in the premises before they issue a closure notice. There is already a requirement for the authorising officer to be satisfied that reasonable steps have been taken to identify such people. While clearly well intentioned, these amendments could prevent such orders from working effectively. The point of a closure notice procedure is to ensure that premises can be shut
6 July 2009 : Column 483
I emphasise that within 48 hours of a closure notice being served, a magistrate's court must hold a hearing to decide whether a closure order should be made. Any person who resides at the property or who has control of or responsibility for it or any other person with an interest in it may make representations to the court at the hearing. The court may also adjourn the hearing to allow such representations to be made. Such people also have the right to appeal against the making of a closure order and can apply for it to be discharged at any time. In addition, the schedule allows for compensation to be paid to those who incur financial loss as the result of a closure order or notice in appropriate circumstances.
A point was made about the offence in Soho, but that offence seems to prove the point. There was a closure order, it went to a court, the court did not accept the argument and the case was dismissed. That is what courts are supposed to be doing. I do not see that there is any need to be fearful; rather, it is reassuring.
Amendment 78 seeks to ensure that closure orders can be imposed only in circumstances where no other measure will prevent activity relating to the relevant child pornography or prostitution offences taking place. The fact that the order needs to be necessary should be sufficient safeguard to ensure that they are not used where other reasonably practicable steps could be taken by the police to prevent the use of premises or activities relating to specified prostitution or child pornography offences. There may be other measures that could be taken to prevent the use of the premises for such activities, but these may be within the power of the owner or the occupier rather than the police. Equally, measures that the police could take may not be reasonably practicable. For example, putting a police officer on the door of premises 24 hours a day may deter criminal activity but would clearly be very costly and could prevent the police dealing with other priorities in the area. However, we will make it clear in the guidance that police should consider what other steps they could take to prevent the premises being used before issuing a closure notice.
The purpose of Amendment 80 is to ensure that before authorising a closure order, a court must consider the effect that making such an order would have on the human rights of any person who owns or resides at the premises, or anyone likely to be affected by the order. We do not feel that that is necessary or appropriate. The police have to take reasonable steps to establish the identity of who resides in the premises, has control of or is responsible for the premises or has an interest
6 July 2009 : Column 484
Amendment 82 would omit the proposed new Section 136Q of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. This section gives the Secretary of State order-making powers to extend the power to issue a closure notice to persons other than police officers. That has not been referred to, so although it was mentioned in what I might call the supergrouping, it may be something to which the noble Baroness wishes to return and perhaps I should not proceed.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I invite the Minister to say why the Government would like to give that power to a wider range of people than police officers?
Lord Brett: I accept that invitation. As I have said, the power in proposed new Section 136Q gives the Secretary of State order-making powers to extend the power to issue closure notices to people other than police officers. Although we have no current intention of extending these powers beyond the police, it will be necessary to review the situation on the basis of operational experience once the orders have been implemented. If the Secretary of State should decide to exercise the power provided by new Section 136Q, Parliament will, of course, have the opportunity to scrutinise the order exercising the powers; as such, the order will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. Therefore, I hope, although I do not expect, that the noble Baroness will be reassured that any attempt to widen these powers will receive sufficient parliamentary scrutiny and will be content not to press her amendments.
Finally, the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, spoke about off-street prostitution and about providing a safer environment. In the Government's view, it is not necessarily a safer environment. Operation Pentameter, a national police operation targeted at trafficking for sexual exploitation, identified 167 adult victims located in different types of premises. This has highlighted the nature of the conditions in which some people are involved in off-street prostitution. In terms of safety, the difference between off-street prostitution and street prostitution can be exaggerated.
Baroness Stern: Does the Minister accept that there is a considerable difference between those who have been trafficked and are held against their will and the vast number of people who, for various, multifarious reasons, have decided to take up this work because
6 July 2009 : Column 485
Lord Brett: I know what the noble Baroness is saying but I will avoid a temptation that will lead me into an argument that proved so unfruitful the other evening when we argued about statistics. I have offered to try to provide some information. There are parallels to an extension of the powers, which would be subject to an affirmative resolution. For example, local authorities already have the power to issue closure notices in relation to premises associated with persistent disorder or nuisance. Although we have no intention yet of so doing because circumstances do not suggest that it is necessary, we ask for this power so that the necessary view, based on operational experience, can be taken once the orders have been implemented.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: I would be most grateful if the noble Lord could give a little more help. I heard what he said in reply to the points raised but the indication was that the 167 people who were found in the premises were being exploited. How many of them were trafficked? Does the Minister have the figures? That would be helpful.
Lord Brett: I do not have the information in my brief, but I will certainly try to find it and reply to the noble Baroness.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I thank all noble Lords who have spoken, particularly the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman. The Government will get a strong message from the joint opposition to these clauses. The Minister made a comment about the relative safety of women working on or off the street. There have been about 60 murders of sex workers over the past 10 years. Of those 60, can the Minister tell the Committee how many were murdered while working on the street, and how many were murdered while working in brothels? As the Minister knows, I was not immensely happy with the replies to many of my points but I am afraid it went from bad to worse. The idea that we would want something of the nature that he suggested before this House by affirmative resolution is, given the breadth of problems that it might produce, something that we will be likely to resist very strongly. Before I finally withdraw the amendment, I invite the Minister to inform the Committee, if he has the figures.
Lord Brett: No, I do not have the figures. I was seeking confirmation that the 167 persons mentioned in respect of Operation Pentameter were all victims of trafficking, indicating that brothels are not necessarily safe places. I take the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, that there is perhaps a distinction to be made on occasion between those who are forced and those who are not forced. I do not have the statistics on the number of murders, but I suspect that the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, may have them, since she collects them with an avid interest. I will, of course, endeavour
6 July 2009 : Column 486
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I thank the Minister. I do not have the figures for the division; it was not a trick question. Perhaps the Minister will find the figures easier to get than I would. I certainly would not want to suggest with any of our amendments that we underestimate the destructive, terrible and appalling nature of trafficking. Obviously, where that is the real reason for a closure order, it might be a substantial reason for issuing it. However, we still have doubts regarding the way the measure is drafted and the assessment of its impact on the lives of the people involved. A woman who is suspected of having committed one of the specified offences and whose premises are closed cannot even enter them to pick up her spectacles. The premises are closed there and then. She cannot collect her belongings and is excluded, as are any of her relations, dependants or people with whom she works. The English Collective of Prostitutes has called it a very violent psychological experience. The women who underwent such an experience recently in Soho had to withstand mutterings from hostile neighbours in addition to undergoing violent psychological trauma. This issue needs to be handled correctly. I hope that we can discuss it before Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
5.30 pm
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: Amendments 74 and 79 are probing amendments to find out what this schedule is intended to achieve. These provisions are very similar to those relating to closure orders for anti-social behaviour and drug offences. It is particularly important that they are proportionate. I share the concerns raised by the Joint Committee on Human Rights in relation to the previous group of amendments that the Bill's wording is pretty wide. For example, new Section 136B(8) states that,
- "it does not matter whether the officer believes that the offence or offences in question have been committed or that they will be committed".
That is extraordinary wording to have in a Bill in relation to an offence. All the officer has to have is "reasonable grounds". I would like the Minister to tell us what constitutes reasonable grounds. If it does not matter whether the officer believes that the offence has been committed or will be committed, what would constitute those grounds?
Amendment 79 seeks to remove the words in new Section 136D(10),
- "it does not matter whether the court is satisfied that the offence or offences in question have been committed or that they will be committed".
That is incredibly wide drafting. I beg to move.
6 July 2009 : Column 487
Viscount Bridgeman: The noble Baroness has tabled important amendments with which we once again have considerable sympathy. I, too, invite the Minister to agree that, as drafted, the Bill gives great power to police to close brothels on nothing but speculation and rumour. We agree with the noble Baroness that brothels should not be closed without good reason, with all the associated danger for prostitutes working there, which was highlighted in the debates on previous clauses.
Lord Brett: Amendments 74 and 79 relate to the issuing of a closure notice by a constable or a closure order by a court. As has been said, they would remove new Sections 136B(8) and (10), which Schedule 2 inserts into the Sexual Offences Act 2003. These subsections are intended to ensure that premises can be closed where the offences have not yet been committed as well as where offences have been committed.
The conditions for issuing a closure notice or making a closure order focus on whether activities related to the relevant prostitution or pornography offence have taken place on the premises rather than whether all the elements of the offence have yet been committed by a particular person. This means, for example, that where premises are being used for controlling prostitutes for gain, it is enough that the officer reasonably believes that sexual services are being provided at the particular premises. It is not necessary for the police officer to have reasonable grounds to believe that all the elements of the offence of controlling a prostitute for gain have yet been committed, so for example, they will not have to believe or prove that the controllers have yet received a gain from their activities. We believe, therefore, that these subsections are necessary to clarify the meaning of the conditions governing the issuing of a closure notice or the making of a closure order.
We share with the noble Baroness, and no doubt many of your Lordships, the aim of ensuring that appropriate safeguards are in place to protect individuals from their premises being closed arbitrarily. However, given the important issues that these orders aim to tackle, we also need to ensure that the police have the necessary powers to respond rapidly when they have reasonable grounds for believing that it is necessary to close premises to avoid future offences occurring. On that basis, I would ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment. I think that I have defined "reasonable" as it is seen in the Government's eyes.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I will read the Minister's reply and before Report ask my noble and learned friends' advice about whether the Bill as drafted should pass into law, given the reservations I expressed when moving the amendment. I hear what the Minister says but I still have considerable doubts. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
6 July 2009 : Column 488
Baroness Hanham: In moving this amendment I, too, want to make it clear that we would be very concerned if the police did not know that somebody working in a brothel had been trafficked. However, none of us is talking about those people. We are talking entirely about people who voluntarily and willingly exercise this trade. We may not particularly like it, but that is not our job; our job is to ensure that legislation does not target people unnecessarily.
This is a probing amendment. New Section 136C(1) states:
(a) state that no-one other than a person who regularly resides on, or owns, the premises may enter or remain on them".
I am not sure how anybody is going to identify whether somebody is regularly on the premises. We need to establish what inquiries will be made to find out whether somebody is on the premises continuously, every night or whether they use the premises occasionally but are still part and parcel of what is going on there. How will those inquiries be made? The Minister said earlier that inquiries would be made to ascertain who the people were, whether they were connected with criminal activity and whether such activity was taking place.
As I say, new Section 136C(1) says:
(a) state that no-one other than a person who regularly resides on, or owns, the premises may enter or remain on them".
Therefore, under this provision some people may be entitled to stay on the premises. To whom would that apply? Would people not engaged in illegal activity be allowed to go back; for example, prostitutes who are voluntarily there and are not acting illegally? Would they be able to return or would everyone be pushed out and made homeless? Will other agencies be able to help people in that situation? However, new Section 136D(2) states absolutely categorically:
"A closure order is an order that the premises in respect of which the order is made are closed to all persons".
It cannot be both; either some people are allowed to remain for legitimate purposes or nobody is allowed to remain. It is not unfair to ask which this will be. I would certainly feel more comfortable with all this about the closure order if I felt that illegal activity, which we are all against, was being closed down.
All of this, as we have said, is about the voluntary aspect of this, and people being thrown out of their business or work premises, or whatever, for at least three months, and having to go to court as a result, because they are doing something illegal-which they may not be. We need to be clear about getting this definition right; that we are all talking about the same people, and we are not talking about those who are engaged in illegal activity. No one here would support any of that, but we would like to know what happens to those who are perfectly legitimately doing what they are doing, which no legislation stops them from doing, and how they will be supported by other agencies while their premises are closed. I beg to move.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I just wish to put on record our support for the noble Baroness's powerful points which she has made in this amendment.
6 July 2009 : Column 489
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: I also support the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, who has asked some very reasonable questions and has pointed out what looks, on the face of it, like a contradiction. I hope that the Minister can answer.
Lord Brett: I will seek to explain successfully what we are seeking to achieve and I hope that if I fail I will have the opportunity to write. I am pretty sure that I understand where we are, but I am not 100 per cent sure on the point that has been raised.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |