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Some in the alcohol industry will argue that it is too early to introduce changes to this offence. The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, did exactly that, given that the original offence came into effect only in April 2007. I disagree with that. The original offence was introduced before TUSAC, which clearly shows that despite repeated warnings some premises continued to sell alcohol to children. Some representatives of the industry have also said that reducing the number of underage sales in a three-month period from three to two is much too harsh, and that the new clause is disproportionate. We all accept that human error will occur and that people will make mistakes when determining whether someone is over 18, but the defence to this offence is that the person selling alcohol has taken reasonable steps to determine whether the person was under 18. That means that they simply ask for some form of proof of age. I agree that it would be disproportionate to penalise businesses for a genuine mistake by a single member of staff-that is why changing this offence as we propose still allows for a level of human error-but the change makes clear that those selling alcohol should ask for proof of age any time there is doubt and, where this does not happen and these sales take place more than once, it is right that the business should be held to account.
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A vast number of premises now run Challenge 21 or Challenge 25-type schemes and this clause cannot be considered disproportionate. Simply put, if you are not selling alcohol illegally, the clause will have no impact. But it will send a strong message that it is not acceptable to sell alcohol to children and that those who do will be punished. Earlier this year in Blackpool, an outlet of a major supermarket chain was found guilty of this offence. It was fined only £6,000 but, since then-I think because of social conscience more than the £6,000 fine, although that was important-it has introduced a Challenge 25 scheme across the whole country. I am pleased that many in the alcohol industry are taking steps to ensure that their staff do not sell alcohol illegally. The Challenge 21 or Challenge 25 schemes initiated by the industry are becoming widely understood by the general public. The hologram of the proof of age standards scheme, PASS, is also fast becoming an easily recognised feature of many student and other ID cards. The new clause, coupled with the excellent work the industry is doing, will send a clear message to those selling and those attempting to buy alcohol illegally that it will not be tolerated.
As regards the question of how many people have been prosecuted, the offence of persistently selling alcohol to children, as I said, came into effect in 2007. No prosecutions were brought in 2007 and court proceedings data for 2008 are not available until later this year. I have covered the other one and so I am afraid I cannot add any more. I shall get back to noble Lords with the details of that. On that basis, I hope the noble Viscount will withdraw his objection to Clause 28 standing part of the Bill.
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Viscount Bridgeman: I am grateful for that full explanation. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, who is an expert in the pub-owning industry. We all know that there is a very good pub up in Northumberland.
We shall await the statistics we have requested and have been promised by the Minister. In the mean time, we shall study his reply carefully.
Clause 29 : Confiscating alcohol from young persons
104: Clause 29, page 26, line 4, at end insert-
"( ) In subsection (1) after "possession of alcohol" insert "without reasonable excuse"."
Viscount Bridgeman: Amendment 106 in this group is designed to address a deep concern on these Benches about the Government's removal of the requirement that there needs to be evidence of intent to drink the alcohol before it can be confiscated. Amendment 104 probes why there is no defence of reasonable excuse inserted to replace such a safeguard. Essentially, these are probing amendments to establish why the Government are changing this power in such a way as to remove all necessity of bad behaviour.
The Government's amendments in this clause would make it possible for a policeman to confiscate a sealed bottle of alcohol from a young person even if there was absolutely no evidence to suggest that he was going to drink it and he had a perfectly good excuse as to why he was carrying it. This would be ludicrous. While maintaining, as ever, my full support for effective measures to address underage drinking, I fail to see how a young person carrying a bottle of wine home for his parents is in any way a suitable target for the police. Even worse, by then refusing to hand over that bottle of wine, he becomes subject to criminal sanctions-and for what?
Although I understand the desire to allow for the confiscation of alcohol from someone who is transporting it to be drunk by another young person-a situation which the current legislation does not cover-there surely must be a defence of reasonable excuse inserted in order to replace the absent subsection. I beg to move.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: We support the amendment. It seems unreasonable that there is no such provision in the Bill. You can imagine a situation where a young person is carrying a sealed bottle of alcohol as part of the weekly shop, which perhaps they deliver to their grandmother-in that case, it might be a bottle of Guinness, which I think is often associated with grandmothers. In a less frivolous way, let us suppose that one of the child's parents was an alcoholic and the alcohol was sent by their sister, say, or their brother or whoever to the person and the child was carrying it. That is not a desirable situation but
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In replying to a Question for Written Answer from my noble friend Lord Avebury on 30 June, the Government mentioned that they were revising the drug and alcohol guidance for schools. Apparently they intend to make drug and alcohol education statutory as part of personal, social and health education. That sort of provision in the Bill, if it needs legislative time to be made statutory, would be a far better use of time in tackling some of these issues than the clause that we are debating at the moment.
Baroness Stern: I support the amendment. The Minister has said on two previous clauses that the purpose is to send messages. I ask him to reflect on the message that is sent to young people when they are stopped although they have a reasonable excuse. They feel that what is happening is extremely unfair and that they have been picked on, and they begin to see the police as people who pick on young people rather than upholders of the law and people whom they should respect. When we are talking so much about sending messages, we should remember that messages go in a number of different directions. In this case, without these amendments the provision could send a message about the unfairness of the forces of law and order, which is not a good message for young people to get.
Lord West of Spithead: Amendment 104 seeks to amend the Bill so that people under 18 would not have their alcohol confiscated by a police officer if they provided a reasonable excuse for possessing alcohol in public. This seems perfectly reasonable but I assure noble Lords that it is unnecessary. The Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Act 1997 already requires the police to consider when it is appropriate for them to seize alcohol from a young person. Section 1(3) of the 1997 Act sets out that a person commits an offence only if they fail "without reasonable excuse" to comply with a requirement imposed on them. In practice, that means that an officer has to consider the circumstances and decide whether it is appropriate to confiscate the alcohol from the young person in question. Naturally, that will include whether or not they have a reasonable excuse.
In answer to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, about young people being picked on, one has to know the context in which this happens. Some of our areas and inner cities are a bit like wild lands, I am afraid. It happens in little towns out in the country as well; I know this from Dorset, where I used to have a cottage. You get groups of youngsters behaving in an appalling way, and they are well aware that they are doing so. It is not as if some person walking quietly along the street is going to get picked up for this. We have to get this into context.
Before confiscating the alcohol, a constable is required under Section 1(4) to inform the young person that it is an offence to fail to comply with his request "without reasonable excuse". In practice, the constable cannot simply put the question of a reasonable excuse to one side as a matter that arises only if there is a prosecution for non-compliance; he will be using his judgment on
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On Amendment 106, a young person who is drunk on the street clearly poses harm to themselves and potentially to others. The Government are very clear that unsupervised drinking by young people under 18 in public places is unacceptable. It exposes them to alcohol-related risks and has clear links to crime and anti-social behaviour. All of us in this House understand that. It was a central message in the youth alcohol action plan published last June. Therefore, we want to make it easier for the police to confiscate alcohol from under-18s found in possession of alcohol in public. We believe that doing so will have a very positive impact on removing or minimising alcohol-related anti-social behaviour and crime and disorder.
The police have told us that the requirement in the Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Act 1997 to prove an intent to consume makes it difficult for officers to take sealed containers of alcohol away from young people who are increasingly aware of this requirement-let's face it, these youngsters can be very cute-and are using it to get round these powers. All it takes is for the young person to argue that the alcohol is not theirs because it is still sealed or they are holding it for someone else, and they cannot be touched. The provisions in Clause 29(4) respond to the very real concerns of the police we have been in dialogue with that they should have the powers they need to take alcohol away for under-18s in a public place, and we agree with them.
If the amendment were accepted, the constable would continue to need to prove that the young person intended to consume all of the alcohol in their possession before that alcohol could be confiscated. It would mean that the police were not able to tackle effectively young people drinking alcohol in public. That, in turn, is almost certainly likely to have an impact on the anti-social behaviour that occurs in the communities and areas I have described. As a result, I am sure that noble Lords will agree that where the police have identified that existing legislation is not working as intended, we should be responsive to these concerns. As I said on the other two amendments, this is part of a total package of measures, all aiming at addressing these concerns.
The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, asked about education in schools. We are looking at how we can do more in dealing with schools; DCSF is looking at that in the context of communities. We will make sure that the noble Baroness's views are reflected in this strategy. There are all sorts of strands, all of which have to be pulled together. I hope that I have covered noble Lords' concerns and I invite the noble Viscount to withdraw the amendment.
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: There is a bit more information that would be very useful to have. I do not think that the Minister is likely to have it in detail now, but I should be grateful if he could write to us. He mentioned the plan that was published in 2008, which talked of improving the alcohol treatment for young people when they have been identified to have a problem. Has this happened? What sort of guidance has been circulated to local commissioners and service providers, as the plan stated that it would be circulated later in 2008? Was it circulated and can the Minister let us see that guidance in the next few weeks? What sort of implementation has taken place since then?
Lord West of Spithead: I do not have that information at my fingertips. I am very happy to write with details to those who have taken part in this debate.
Viscount Bridgeman: I am most grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Stern and Lady Miller, for their constructive support for the amendment. I am also grateful to the Minister for elucidating the previous legislation on confiscating alcohol, which satisfies some of our concerns. This is a serious problem about which the whole House is deeply concerned. I am grateful for the Minister's ample explanation and shall read it carefully before Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
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Baroness Walmsley: We have now agreed that I will move Amendment 105. The effect of this amendment is to leave out the part of the Bill that amends the Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Act 1997 and would give police the power to remove children under 16 from an area to their place of residence or a place of safety if they are simply in possession of alcohol. They will be able forcibly to remove a child, regardless of whether any offence is being committed, or it is necessary to do so for the person's safety or well-being, or for public order. We are not talking about the situations that the noble Lord was referring to when he responded to the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, a few moments ago. The Committee should bear in mind that a single possession of alcohol is not an offence under Clause 30. This new power is unnecessary and disproportionate. The police already have the power, under Section 30 of the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003, to remove children under 16 to their homes between 9 pm and 6 am if they are in a specified area and the power to remove children for their own safety in an emergency under Section 46 of the Children Act 1989. Those provisions have been debated at great length in your Lordships' House and I have certainly taken part in those debates myself.
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We have been contacted by Liberty, which is particularly concerned that these proposed new powers could be open to abuse; that children will feel further alienated, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, said; and that they are unnecessary in the light of existing laws to tackle problems of anti-social or criminal behaviour. I agree with Liberty on that score. There is already plenty of legislation to deal with children who are misbehaving. If a child under 16 in possession of alcohol commits a breach of the peace, such as by threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, it may constitute a breach of Sections 4, 4A and 5 of the Public Order Act 1986. A police power to move children on when they have not committed any offence or disturbance is discriminatory, ageist and counterproductive. As children's spokesperson from these Benches, I think it is an outrageous idea.
I am not suggesting that we do not have a problem with children and alcohol. We do. According to an Answer to a Parliamentary Question by my honourable friend Norman Lamb in another place, last year there were 181 admissions to A&E of children under 12 for alcohol-related issues; more than 4,000 admissions of 12 to 15 year-olds; and nearly 8,000 admissions of 16 and 17 year-olds. The admissions of 12 to 15 year-olds have gone up by 12 per cent since 2002, and by 66 per cent for 16 and 17 year-olds. We on these Benches agree that this is an epidemic, but we need visionary responses as well as responses that have been proved to be effective. Many local authorities have schemes to address the problem and I outlined some of those at Second Reading. The Government too have some excellent initiatives, such as the alcohol arrest referral programme, which is currently being tested in six local authority areas and was referred to a few minutes ago by the noble Lord, Lord West, in the debate on Clause 27.
Under the scheme, those aged 10 to 17 who have been arrested while under the influence of alcohol or drugs-so we are not talking here about possession-will be interviewed and assessed by a specially trained youth worker who will get to the bottom of the problem and work with the child and his family to agree treatment, education or whatever else is appropriate. I congratulate the Government on initiatives of this sort and urge them to spend their money on more of this sort of thing rather than wasting the police's budget on moving on children who have not done anything. The authorities should target those who are behaving anti-socially or damaging themselves and their health. They should do it through proven therapeutic means, rather than dragging them unnecessarily into the criminal justice system. The danger of taking children home when they have not broken the law is of destroying any relationship they might have had with the police and alienating them from society by labelling them as troublemakers. I beg to move.
Viscount Bridgeman: The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, is right to probe this power and to ask what its purpose is. There is no indication that the carrying of alcohol under this clause indicates that the young person is unsafe or about to cause disruption, so what is the purpose behind taking them home? The Government making it a criminal offence to refuse to give the police their home address could lead to a worrying escalation of a very minor situation.
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Lord West of Spithead: Amendment 105 would remove from the Bill the police discretionary power to take persons under 16 whose alcohol has been confiscated to a place of safety or to their home. Young people drinking in public is a growing problem. A survey of 11 to 15 year-olds-the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, mentioned some statistics-showed that the proportion of that age group who drink outside has gone from 21 per cent in 1999 to 31 per cent in 2006. That proportion increases to more than 50 per cent among those who drink more than seven units of alcohol a week, which is an alarming growth. These children place themselves and others at risk of alcohol-related harm. Clause 29 is designed to help address this problem. This discretionary power will allow the police officer to take children under 16 to their home or to a safe place. Guidance will make it absolutely clear the children should be taken home only if they are in possession of alcohol and pose a risk to themselves or others. I do not want to give a raft of examples but I can certainly imagine a 12 year-old carrying a slab of beer accompanied by his older mates who would fall into that category. However, I shall not give lots of hypothetical examples as it would be dangerous so to do.
As I say, it seems to me all too easy to imagine circumstances where someone under 16 who has alcohol confiscated could be at risk if the police officer then simply abandons him. Accordingly, it seems only sensible for the police to have a discretionary power backed by appropriate guidance to take that person home or to a place of safety. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, says that sufficient measures are in place. The police removal powers under the Anti-social Behaviour Act are applicable only-I think that she touched on this-to children whose behaviour is found to be intimidating, alarming or distressing between 9 pm and 6 am in designated locations. That is why we believe the removal power under Clause 29 is necessary as it would apply to persons under 16 deemed by an officer to be susceptible to alcohol-related harm and would permit the welfare of the child to be considered at all times and in all locations. We believe that is beneficial. I hope that with that answer I will have resolved noble Lords' concerns. I request that the amendment is withdrawn.
Baroness Hanham: In relation to taking a person to a place of safety, what happens in a place of safety? That may be evident in other legislation but not in the Bill before us. Where is the place of safety? Is it a police station, a school or the local social services department? What are the ramifications of this? If the child incriminates himself or herself by saying too much or not saying enough, and they are taken to social services, you can see all sorts of problems arising, possibly from care proceedings because the parents are not around. It is quite easy to put this into writing; it is quite difficult to see the end result. The Government need to consider the end result before we blithely pass this through.
Lord West of Spithead: The place of safety is not defined in the Bill. Guidance under the Children and Young Persons Act states that a place of safety can be a community home provided by the local authority, a controlled community home, a police station, hospital, surgery or any other suitable place if the occupier of
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Baroness Walmsley: I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I really think that we are asking too much of the police here. I fail to see how a police officer can know whether a child walking along the street with a bottle of Sanatogen tonic wine is in danger of alcohol abuse. We may well come back to this matter, and we have the next debate on whether the clause should stand part of the Bill to explore it further. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Debate on whether Clause 29 should stand part of the Bill.
Baroness Walmsley: As we have just heard, Clause 29 amends the police's power to confiscate alcohol from young people in a public place. As the Minister said, the police no longer have to prove that the individual intended to consume that alcohol. The clause also requires the young person to give their name and address to the police and allows the police to return the individual to their home or a place of safety, which is not defined.
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