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Confiscation is not the best way to deal with young people who drink outdoors. We on these Benches are concerned that such an approach could antagonise young people and result in conflict between them and the police. It is very easy to get young people's backs up when they feel that they have been dealt with unfairly. The Government should bear in mind that a 15 year-old may be taking the alcohol home where he or she can legally drink it. There is no link to consuming the alcohol in public. The Government are criminalising behaviour in which the young person is simply preparing to do something perfectly legal-that is, to drink the alcohol at home.
I am also concerned that the power to return the individual to their home or a place of safety is very broadly drafted, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, has just pointed out. A similar power in Section 30 of the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 to remove persons under 16 to their place of residence can be exercised only when certain conditions are met-that is to say, only between the hours of 9 pm and 6 am; where the relevant officer, who is a police officer above the rank of superintendent, has grounds to believe that any members of the public have been intimidated by the presence or behaviour of groups in the locality; and where anti-social behaviour is already a significant and persistent problem. There are no such safeguards against abuse of the powers in this Bill.
We believe that children and young people who are drinking in public places should not, without also having behaved in some other criminal or anti-social
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As I said at Second Reading, criminalising possession of alcohol may also lead to children seeking out isolated locations in which to drink, where they may be at risk, particularly at night. There are all sorts of nasty people out there. We also have a problem with the proposition in Clause 29 that those people from whom the alcohol is confiscated should have to give their names and addresses to the police, and that this is then likely to be used as evidence against them in proceedings under Clause 30 to establish a persistent pattern of possession. Children from whom alcohol is confiscated are, therefore, required under Clause 29 to incriminate themselves. They will not be warned of this by the police, nor will they be legally advised, nor will they have an appropriate adult with them-as would happen in situations that occur in a police station.
Further, you can imagine what a child might do when confronted with a police officer asking for their name and address. There is every chance that they will give a false name and address, and they may implicate another innocent young person who will then find it hard to dispute his identity as the person from whom the alcohol is confiscated. A miscarriage of justice is waiting to happen.
In response to the Government's youth crime action plan, the Standing Committee for Youth Justice cautiously welcomed Operation Staysafe, under which the police use existing child protection legislation to remove children and young people from the street late at night to a place of safety; but the committee expressed concern that that was being used under the banner of controlling anti-social behaviour and should not result in children being swept off the streets. I share that concern. Children should be removed to a place of safety only if they themselves are at risk of harm, as defined by the Children Act 1989. Even then, the interpretation of the words "at risk" and "place of safety" need careful consideration. Let us not further criminalise children, many of whom are only copying behaviour learned from their parents. They need help and guidance, not criminalisation.
9.45 pm
Lord West of Spithead: Clause 29 does three things, and I shall take them in sequence. Removing the requirement to prove that the person under 18 "intended" to consume the sealed containers of alcohol in their possession will make it easier for the police-we have had a lot of dialogue with the police-to confiscate all alcohol from those under 18 years of age in public places. We are talking about situations where, for example, 12 or 14 youngsters are at a bus stop. Some of them are very drunk, some are not very drunk and some are just watching what is going on. Some are
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I am sure that, in some circumstances, an individual under 18 will have a reasonable excuse for refusing to comply with police instructions to surrender their alcohol: for example, if the young person is with a parent and is helping to carry their shopping. I mentioned the example of going out for a picnic. We agree that alcohol should not be confiscated in such instances, and we expect the police to exercise discretion. However, these situations are very different from the ones that the police are telling us about: for example, groups of young people, some over 18, some under, at a bus stop or in a park, all drinking. It cannot be the norm for young people to be allowed to wander around in groups with alcohol in their possession. I hope that noble Lords agree with me.
The requirement in Clause 29 for a police officer to request the name and address of the person under 18 is linked to the new offence in Clause 30 of persistent possession of alcohol in a public place. Under that clause, it is an offence for a person under 18 to have alcohol confiscated from them three times in any 12-month period. As such, it is necessary for police to know if the individual has had alcohol confiscated before. Taking down the individual's name and address will allow this to happen. It is interesting to think back to my grandfather, who was a beat bobby in Brixton. He knew all the scallywags, knew where they lived and knew all their families. We are in a different world now. He would probably have clipped them round the ear-which nowadays would get him arrested-and taken them back to their house, where their parents might have smacked them, which would get them arrested now, too. Some forces already take down the details of those from whom they confiscate alcohol. This good practice should be consistent across all forces.
There are concerns that, when someone provides their name and address, they will be incriminating themselves under proposed Clause 30, which creates the offence of persistently possessing alcohol in a public place. However, this is not the case. Under the proposed changes to provisions in the Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Act, it will be an offence for a young person whose alcohol has been confiscated to refuse to provide their name and address when required to do so. The child does not incriminate himself by giving his name and address and complying with the law. The personal information provided by the young person under the provisions of the clause may be used to prove the offence of persistent possession, but it is the fact that the person is caught in possession of alcohol three times that triggers the offence, not the fact that they have given their name to the police.
Finally, the clause makes provision for the police, should they deem it necessary, to return persons under 16 to their home or a place of safety. The safety and
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The police already have some powers to remove persons under 16 to a place of safety under the Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003-I have covered this already-for example, if it is a question of alarm or distress and if they behave in that sort of way between 9 pm and 6 am. Under the Children Act 1989 the police also have emergency powers to remove a young person at risk of significant harm-
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: While the Minister is on that subject, would he answer the point made by my noble friend Lady Walmsley, that under the Act he has just quoted it has to be a superintendent or above who exercises that power, whereas in this Bill it is a constable? Why do the Government feel that in the case of anti-social behaviour a more senior officer should do this, whereas in the case of alcohol, a constable can deal with it? What is the difference?
Lord West of Spithead: I have not focused on that particular point. Personally, I rather like the fact of driving down levels of decision-making on some of these things. I will come back to the noble Baroness on her specific point.
Baroness Hanham: The Minister mentioned the Children Act. I declare an interest as a family court magistrate. Under the Children Act, the police would have the right under a police protection order to take a child into protective custody, but a whole lot of ramifications flow on from that. I asked the Minister previously if he could say what the implications were of taking a child to a place of safety. You cannot just take them and leave them somewhere. There has either then got to be contact with their parents in order that they can come and collect them, or, potentially, you have to go down the route of the Children Act and you are in the whole different world that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, was referring to. Before the next stage, we need to follow this story through as to what this place of safety means and what follows from it in terms of the Children Act. Then you are involved in all sorts of areas, such as taking the children into police protection and having to seek emergency protection orders. There is a big road to go down. One would hope it would be simple and that when the parents
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Lord West of Spithead: I take that point. It is a good point and we need to look at that. We would expect the bulk of the people to be returned home, as I said earlier. But if some are returned somewhere else, the point made by the noble Baroness is absolutely valid.
As far as the Children Act goes, it is a much more considered and ponderous way of doing things, which is probably why we had this higher level in there. What we are trying to do is immediate and on the ground, which is why we are looking at constables to do it, which I think is right. But this is a valid point and we will get back on that specific issue.
These powers are not designed to deal with the return of young persons who are at risk of alcohol-related harm or who pose a risk to themselves or others because of their alcoholic intoxication. We think that by possessing these things, they could go down that route, which is why we made separate provisions under this clause.
In summary, I believe these measures will empower the police to confiscate all alcohol found in a young person's possession, thereby reducing the volume of alcohol consumed in public places and all the associated anti-social behaviour and crime. It is quite shocking, as I said earlier, how incidences of this are rising. I am sure all of us have seen what goes on in some of these places. I certainly have and it is pretty unpleasant and we need to do something about it. This will require the police to take a record of who has had alcohol confiscated and ensure that, where appropriate, a person under 16 caught with alcohol is taken home or looked after. I
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Baroness Walmsley: I thank the Minister for his response, but I point out that the many millions of pounds-worth of prohibited drugs that have been confiscated do not seem to have had the desired effect of reducing consumption of drugs. His hope that confiscation of alcohol from young people will reduce the amount of alcohol consumed is a hope that will not be realised.
I understand what the Minister says about the link between this clause and Clause 30, where police have to take the name and address of the child because they need to establish the pattern for which there is an offence in Clause 30, but I am very concerned about the fact that the child on the street will not understand the implications of giving their name and address to a police officer. They will get no advice about it. Again, the Minister is expecting the police to make the sort of judgments and assessments of whether the child's welfare will be compromised that children's services workers are trained for years to make. I will be very surprised if police officers would go through anything like the amount of training that specially trained youth workers will to make such assessments.
Perhaps the Minister has understood from this debate that we are still unhappy about the clause, so he may find us returning to it, but, for the moment, I shall not be pursuing my opposition to the clause.
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