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I must declare that I am not a lawyer in any form. My experience as a sentencer was a few years as a magistrate in the Thames court in the 1980s and a further nine years in Scotland as a children's panel member until I came to your Lordships' House. Having worked in various fields within criminal justice,
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We have moved a long way from the exclusivity of sentencers and the monopoly of wisdom on the subject. Admittedly, it may feel uncomfortable to some of them to be consulting with other such non-experts. I well remember in the mid-80s when I arranged for a distinguished judge, Peter Pain-some noble Lords present may remember him-to give a public lecture in the central area of Winchester Crown Court on sentencing. This caused a real frisson among some of his colleagues because in those days judges did not do things like coming out and talking to the great British public so publicly. Now it is relatively commonplace. For example, early on in his tenure as Lord Chief Justice, the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, gave a significant lecture at Oxford University on the importance of alternatives to custody and the relative pointlessness of short custodies-one, I regret, that was not organised by myself. It was memorable both symbolically and in what he had to say.
As sentencers move out into the wider world-when they can, busy men and women that they are-they are advised not only within their courts but from outside. We hope that, for example, the problem-solving courts will become a model for the future when judges are involved there and then when decisions on a particular judgment are put in place on the spot. Additionally, increasing work is being done to divert people in trouble away from the courts at all, particularly the most vulnerable, such as women, children and the mentally ill, because it is recognised that it is outwith court that their offending, and their needs underpinning their offending, will be better met, for the public to be freed from their reoffending. People who work at that interface and beyond, with other particular skill sets, have voices that must be heard within the council and in equal measure.
For that reason, I warmly support my noble friend's amendment for the inclusion of someone with experience in the rehabilitation of offenders, which is not merely theoretical but practical. There is no substitute for first-hand knowledge of the realities and their relevance and usefulness to particular situations. Of course, the reality sometimes does not tally with what the theory might initially have suggested.
It is extremely important that someone with experience of children and young people from the youth justice world is included. We have a terrible record in this country on how we deal with children and young people. It is a source of continuing shame that we, alone in the rest of Europe and many other parts of the world, actually lock up children as young as 12 in that part of the prison estate called secure training centres. Most of these children have a range of the most desperate situations and problems and are the most vulnerable in society; they also commit some shocking offences, but it is vital that their needs are met, first and foremost, as in Scotland through the children's panels, rather than through the punitive ethos of the STCs, whose effectiveness with regard to reoffending and public safety is the worst in the whole estate.
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I sincerely hope that no one in this House does not agree that how we deal with children, starting with our own, is simply not the same as it is for adults. In the world of offending, it needs real expertise and understanding, which goes far beyond those of us uninvolved in that world. We currently have more than 6,000 children and young people in prison, including the YOIs, whose offending may on occasions be awful, but whose circumstances are equally and desperately awful. I like to think that, with someone with the right knowledge and expertise on this council, we might have a chance to get things a little more right than we do at the moment.
Lastly, my other amendment in this group may seem inappropriate to some, but it contains a serious suggestion, and I hope and expect that we will get some serious discussion on it from the Government. I suggest that a representative of the media should also be included in the non-judicial part of the council. The role of the media in the public perception of law and order, the state of our criminal justice system and the understanding of the work and effectiveness, or otherwise, of our judiciary is a huge topic, which has consumed endless man and woman hours of discussion and miles of column inches-too much for this part of our debate to really do justice to today, if noble Lords will excuse the pun.
It is a given that neither people in the media nor the public at large have much confidence in our criminal justice system, and even less understanding, yet it is the one that informs the other more than any other means of communication. Confidence is rooted in understanding, which can only grow with knowledge. At the moment, the principal source of knowledge that most people have is through the press, radio and TV. I illustrate that with headlines such as "Soft lives and crimes of the lenient judges" in the Sunday Times, "Shocking figures show judges are jailing fewer criminals" in the Daily Mail, or "Top cop gunning for 'soft' judges" in the Sun. Is it any wonder that there is not much informed confidence in what is happening in our courts? Perhaps I should also declare an interest as the wife of a journalist so that I can vouch for the fact that many journalists, including those on the Sunday Times, for which my husband worked for many years, are responsible and well informed people. Many in the Chamber may say, "Some of my best friends are journalists".
Many studies have shown that the public's perception of crime is that it is rising, so who, for example, would believe that levels of knife crime across the country have remained stable? They show the prevalence of the belief that sentences are too lenient, while at the same time substantially underestimating the proportion of convicted offenders who are sentenced to prison. Indeed, research on attitudes has shown that when the public are given the facts on specific cases with a range of sentencing options, including custody and alternatives, they invariably favour the more lenient ones. Politicians and policy-makers, who also read the Daily Mail as well as the Sunday Times, remain convinced that what the public require of them is to be tough. The current Lord Chancellor has declared himself proud of the fact that this Administration have increased the number of people sent to prison. He hopes that that will act as
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I suggest that one media person on the council will not change all that overnight, but could make a seriously needed start in shifting some of these perceptions. It would also offer the opportunity of developing a greater openness and trust between the media and sentencers that could help with the community education role of the council, which I will come to when we discuss Clause 115.
I believe that the amendment offers the much needed possibility for change, and I hope the Government will take it seriously.
Lord Borrie: I particularly comment-to a large degree, favourably-on the amendments in the group proposed by the Liberal Democrat Members. It seems to me that while making particular points relating to their amendments, both are very keen on the notion that there should be a combination of judicial and non-judicial members with various kinds of experience on the sentencing council. The range of experience on the sentencing council is of great importance in adding value to the experience of the trial judge whose final responsibility is to pronounce sentence-subject, that is, to appeal. Like the Liberal Democrat Members, I very strongly agree with the broad thrust of the Government's proposals that the council should be composed of a mix of judicial and non-judicial members.
The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, particularly wanted to add somebody with experience in the rehabilitation of offenders to the range of non-judicial members required in paragraph 4 of Schedule 4. Many years ago I was a member of the Parole Board for England and Wales. I remember distinctly one group of people who were always represented and of great value. They came from the Probation Service. They are specifically the people whom the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, will have in mind as being particularly experienced with the rehabilitation of offenders. I would welcome that.
I am not quite so sure about the other amendment, and I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, recognised that the media may cause difficulties. My main point in relation to youth offending and the media-which the noble Baroness emphasised-is that there are only to be six non-judicial members; the amendments do not seek to change that. Seven different levels of experience are already specifically mentioned in the schedule and we might have eight, nine or 10. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that because the choices can be made from among those. However, if I were to give a preference of adding or not adding, I would add, for the reasons I have mentioned, the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, but leave aside those recommended by the noble Baroness.
5 pm
Lord Woolf: I also want to say a few words in support of what has been suggested by the distinguished Liberal Democrat Peers on this matter. I was a Lord Chief Justice who, unfortunately, had the burden of
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We found that one of most difficult tasks that the Sentencing Guidelines Council had was to ensure that when the guidelines were issued, they were not immediately rubbished by the media. I can well remember the times that I tried to explain to the media that these guidelines were very sensible and were the product of a great deal of research and very hard work by the council, yet they were given a very rough reception. That damaged the ability of the guidelines to achieve their objective. Therefore, having someone who understood the workings of the media could be of value to the council. I do not say that you have to have someone with that experience but I certainly see nothing wrong with it being a factor that makes someone eligible to be a member of the council.
The other two suggestions speak for themselves and my taking up time encouraging their inclusion is not needed.
The Earl of Listowel: Briefly, I support and second what the noble Baroness said about the treatment of, and highly punitive approach to, children in the criminal justice system in this country. I commend the Government for the steps that they have taken to try to improve the criminal justice system in the way that it treats children and their endeavours to keep children out of the criminal justice system through Care Matters: Time for Change and Every Child Matters.
However, we start from an extraordinarily low base. UNICEF has identified us as the worst performing developed country in terms of the welfare of children. The Church of England's good childhood inquiry again identified how troubled many of our children are, particularly in this country, where there are very high levels of family breakdown. So often we are punishing our children because of their family backgrounds; because their parents are alcohol-dependent or drug-dependent; because they are bereaved and have lost a parent; because their parents have broken up; or because they belong to a generation-after-generation dysfunctional family.
That is not to say that, for instance, those under 14 should not be treated firmly and made responsible for their actions, but we should take a more welfare-based approach to their needs. Most other countries have a minimum age of criminal responsibility above the age of 14. I am very concerned that many of these children, in particular those under the age of 14, believe that it is their responsibility when their parents break up; when they feel unloved; when they see their parents fighting with one another. Working with children, I am so familiar with this. The child believes, "It is my fault that my family is not working". That is the nature of being a child: one imagines that the world revolves around one and that one is responsible for these things. By branding them as criminals at the age
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I strongly second what the noble Baroness has said about the overpunitive nature of our society. This is well reflected in the international surveys such as that done by UNICEF. If we just look at the care system in this country, which we all recognise has failed our most vulnerable children, and look in the mirror, we have to see that unfortunately, historically, we have not treated our vulnerable children with support and understanding but with a lack of understanding and an overpunitive approach.
Baroness Butler-Sloss: For the reasons that have already been given, I particularly support the idea that somebody with experience of youth offending should be on the Sentencing Council. I declare an interest as patron of a secure unit, which does very good work and which many of the young people, boys and girls, do not want to leave. It is the only secure place that they have had in their entire lives. It is important that that aspect of sentencing should be in the forefront in the minds of the members of the sentencing council. I very much support it.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I follow what the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said. He pointed out that, in the selection of people eligible for appointment as non-judicial members, not all the members from those disciplines have to be represented. It strikes me that people who have experience in the use of statistics, or are concerned with academic study or research relating to criminal law or criminology, are the sort of people who could give evidence to the Sentencing Council and help it in its task. I would have thought that that was much less significant in the formation of policy, providing that they were there as advisers, than having people with experience of rehabilitation of offenders, youth offending and the media. It would be highly desirable to try to tie in the media to what the Sentencing Council is doing, and to try to end the desperate division that currently exists between the media's perception of what happens in court and what actually happens.
Lord Bach: Amendments 187AB and 187BC in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, refer to the judicial membership of the council and suggest that we should add two more magistrates to the membership, which would increase the judicial membership from eight to 10 members and the overall membership from 14 to 16. The noble Lord would not have had the benefit of seeing the government amendments to which I have spoken today, which were tabled at approximately the same time as his. They will remove the requirements for a set number of members at each level of the judiciary while ensuring that there is at least one magistrate, one district judge and one circuit judge.
Of course, under our amendments it is open to the Lord Chief Justice to nominate the judicial members in the balance of numbers that he thinks is appropriate for the council. In this way, the overall membership of the council remains at 14 and the balance between the judicial and non-judicial membership-8:6-remains the same, with a small judicial majority.
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The Government are aware of the important role that lay magistrates play in our criminal justice system. Of course magistrates should be represented on the council. Under our amendments, there must be at least one magistrate, with an option open to the Lord Chief Justice to appoint more. We believe that conferring the discretion on the Lord Chief Justice is a better approach, on balance, than prescribing a set number of magistrates and judges at each level of the judiciary to sit on the council.
Before I turn to the other amendments, I thank all noble Lords for their general support for the approach that we have adopted in this part of the Bill regarding the make-up of the council. Not least, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, with his experience in this field for what he had to say about the role of the Lord Chief Justice in the sentencing council.
What I am going to say is similar to what my noble friend Lord Borrie suggested a few minutes ago. We accept Amendment 188, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, which seeks to add to the skills that the Justice Secretary considers in appointing non-judicial members of the council experience of the rehabilitation of offenders. The importance of placing emphasis on the rehabilitation of offenders has been raised on both sides of the Committee, not least by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, in our debates two days ago. The Government recognise the importance of rehabilitation and reducing reoffending and agree that skills in that field should be considered in the appointment of non-judicial members of the council. So we welcome and support Amendment 188.
We are not unsympathetic to the other amendments, but we do not think that the case is really made in either of the two fields that the noble Baroness refers to. Let me try briefly to explain why. Amendment 188A would add to the skills non-judicial members' experience of the media. While I recognise that it is important for a body such as the council to communicate well with the public and the media, we do not think it necessary to include a representative of the media among the non-judicial members of the council. There is a need for public debate on sentencing and how sentences are reported, but we are not persuaded that a media representative on the council is the way to address this. First, the council itself will need specialist media staff to deal with media interest in this field. Secondly, many of the non-judicial members in their own right, by virtue of their current positions, will have considerable media experience. So we do not feel it necessary to put that in the Bill.
As far as youth offending is concerned, no one doubts the importance of dealing with young offenders, but the list of skills of non-judicial members, as my noble friend indicated, already includes experience of youth offending. I will give two examples. The member with experience of policing will surely have experience of youth offending. Also, I would expect the member with experience of sentencing policy and the administration of justice to have experience of sentencing youths. While recognising the good intent behind the amendment, we do not think that it is necessary, given the range and depth of experience
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Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: The other noble Lords are the noble Lord, Lord Henley, and I. Would the noble Lord, Lord Henley, like to go first?
Lord Henley: I do not have my name down to Amendment 188, which is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. That is the amendment that the Minister said that he was happy to accept.
Lord Bach: It is. When we come to it in the list, we will certainly vote in favour of it.
Lord Henley: I was not expecting the noble Lord to accept my amendments, which, as I stated, were probing amendments to ask the Government to explain their rationale, which they have done. They have also set out the changes that they want to make in their own Amendment 187BB.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: It is with a heavy heart that I say that I did not necessarily expect the Government to accept my amendments, but I wish that they had ears to hear. The fact that my amendment is supported by, of all people, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, should not be ignored by the Government. Moreover, the support of the former Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, for the concept of media expertise is also worth a second thought. I shall consider what the Government have said but I should add that experience of policing does not give you insights into and knowledge of the needs of children and their welfare that I have discussed. However, as I say, I shall consider this further and possibly come back to it.
Amendment 187B had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
187BA: Schedule 13, page 149, line 27, leave out from "appoint" to end of line 33 and insert-
"(a) a judicial member to chair the Council ("the chairing member"), and
(b) another judicial member to chair the Council in the absence of the chairing member."
187BB: Schedule 13, page 149, line 35, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert-
"(1) A person is eligible for appointment as a judicial member if the person is-
(a) a judge of the Court of Appeal,
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(b) a puisne judge of the High Court,
(c) a Circuit judge,
(d) a District Judge (Magistrates' Courts), or
(e) a lay justice.
(2) The judicial members must include at least one Circuit judge, one District Judge (Magistrates' Courts) and one lay justice."
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn): If Amendment 187BB is agreed to, I will be unable to call Amendment 187BC owing to pre-emption.
Amendments 188A and 188AZA not moved.
188AA: Schedule 13, page 150, line 23, at end insert-
"President of the Council(1) The Lord Chief Justice is to have the title of President of the Sentencing Council for England and Wales.
Amendments 188AA and 188AB agreed.
Schedule 13, as amended, agreed.
Clause 106 : Sentencing guidelines
Amendments 188B and 188C not moved.
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