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2 Nov 2009 : Column 42
20: Clause 26, page 12, line 11, leave out "that qualification, or one of those qualifications," and insert "the qualification that demonstrates the relevant occupational competencies"
21: Clause 26, page 12, line 18, at end insert-
""off-the-job training" in relation to a recognised English framework, is training which-
(a) is received for the purposes of the skill, trade or occupation to which the framework relates, and
(b) is not on-the-job training;
"on-the-job training" in relation to a recognised English framework, is training received in the course of carrying on the skill, trade or occupation to which the framework relates;
"the relevant occupational competencies", in relation to a recognised English framework, means the competencies required to perform the skill, trade or occupation to which the framework relates at the level required in the framework;
"the relevant technical knowledge", in relation to a recognised English framework, means the technical knowledge required to perform the skill, trade or occupation to which the framework relates at the level required in the framework."
Clause 30: Contents of specification of apprenticeship standards for Wales
22: Clause 30, page 13, line 25, after "them," insert-
"(aa) requirements for a recognised Welsh framework to include, as a Welsh certificate requirement, the requirement that an apprenticeship certificate relating to the framework may be issued to a person only if the person has received both on-the-job training and off-the-job training,"
23: Clause 30, page 13, line 28, after "held," insert-
"(ia) include, as a Welsh certificate requirement, the requirement that the qualification, or the qualifications taken together, demonstrate the relevant occupational competencies and the relevant technical knowledge,"
24: Clause 30, page 13, line 29, leave out "that qualification, or one of those qualifications," and insert "the qualification that demonstrates the relevant occupational competencies"
25: Clause 30, page 13, line 33, after "section" insert-
""off-the-job training" in relation to a recognised Welsh framework, is training which-
(a) is received for the purposes of the skill, trade or occupation to which the framework relates, and
(b) is not on-the-job training;
"on-the-job training" in relation to a recognised Welsh framework, is training received in the course of carrying on the skill, trade or occupation to which the framework relates;
"the relevant occupational competencies", in relation to a recognised Welsh framework, means the competencies required to perform the skill, trade or occupation to which the framework relates at the level required in the framework;
"the relevant technical knowledge", in relation to a recognised Welsh framework, means the technical knowledge required to perform the skill, trade or occupation to which the framework relates at the level required in the framework."
2 Nov 2009 : Column 43
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Morgan of Drefelin): My Lords, I will speak also to Amendment 222. The aim here is to ensure that schools provide information about apprenticeships to all pupils, alongside other education and training options for 16 to 18 year-olds. I am grateful to noble Lords for an extremely productive and thought-provoking debate on careers education in Committee, and particularly to my noble friends who were in their place earlier on. This signalled what I identified as a determination, which we all share, to ensure that every pupil has access to a wide range of information about all the options available to them at the age of 16, to allow them to make informed choices about their future.
However, noble Lords expressed doubts about the extent to which this requirement was made explicit to schools by the careers education clause in this Bill. We have listened very carefully to those concerns. This was always a question of drafting rather than intention. I hope noble Lords will agree that the new clause contained in Amendment 22 will address those concerns and make it absolutely clear to schools that they have a legal duty to ensure that every child receives information about apprenticeships. The new clause, which would replace Clause 36, introduces a requirement on schools, when providing a programme of careers education, to ensure that the programme includes information on options available in respect of education or training for 16 to 18 year-olds, and specifically information on apprenticeships, which was the issue that noble Lords were concerned about.
The new clause will amend Section 43 of the Education Act 1997. That section was previously amended by the Education and Skills Act 2008 to require schools to provide careers information in an impartial manner and give advice that promotes the best interests of pupils. Nothing that we are doing through the new clause will alter or undermine that legislative position.
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We also took powers in the Education and Skills Act 2008 to issue statutory guidance on careers education, which was published on 26 October. That sets out the core information which all young people should receive on post-16 learning options. That includes extensive information on apprenticeships, including the benefits of taking an apprenticeship, wage returns and apprenticeship sector progression to higher education-a very important issue raised in Committee-as well as information about employment opportunities available locally.
On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will agree that their concerns have been addressed and that the new clause sends a clear message to schools that an apprenticeship is a good route for many and cannot be discounted when schools are considering which route might be best for their pupils. I beg to move.
Lord De Mauley: My Lords, we welcome the Government's amendments. On our second day in Committee, my noble friend Lady Perry commented that,
2 Nov 2009 : Column 44
- "11 noble Lords have put their names to amendments that in one way or another ask that Clause 35 repeat the requirement that information about apprenticeships should be given to all young people, not only those for whom it is in their best interests".-[Official Report, 24/6/09; col. 1634.]
We are pleased that the Government have taken those objections on board and have returned with a clause that meets those concerns.
We have cited these statistics before, but it is worth calling on them again. The 2008 YouGov poll on this issue showed that only 24 per cent of teachers felt that apprenticeships were a good alternative to A-levels. In contrast, 55 per cent of employers and 52 per cent of young people felt that they were just as good an option. It is important that pupils do not miss out on advice regarding both vocational and academic options. We are delighted that the Government have accepted the argument here and tabled amendments conceding that point-accepting that our approach, and that of so many around the House, is more appropriate.
However, we on these Benches feel that the clause still represents a missed opportunity. It is no secret that we feel that about many parts of the Bill. Nevertheless, in this context, I shall concentrate on the careers service. The Government propose amendments to the Education Act that would ensure that the provision of a programme of careers education includes information on education, training and apprenticeships. They have not, however, taken the opportunity to make statutory and effective changes to the careers education system.
As things stand, in about two-thirds of schools in England, careers advice is given by teachers with no professional qualification in the field. Further advice may come from the Connexions service, which replaced the careers service in 2001. Although Connexions can provide useful services and advice, a recent study by the Skills Commission has shown that,
- "there has been a decline in the quality of careers advice since Connexions replaced the Careers Service".
Moreover, the Government's own new guidance paper, Quality, Choice and Aspiration-A Strategy for Young People's Information, Advice and Guidance, states that,
information, advice and guidance-"varies quite considerably". Again, the Government's guidance cites a recent online study by the British Youth Council, the National Children's Bureau, and Young NCB, which found that only just under 20 per cent of respondents rated the formal career advice they received as "very helpful". Although the Connexions service has achieved many good things, it clearly needs improving radically. Some of the difficulty may be that Connexions is expected to provide such a wide range of advice over such a wide remit, from health to relationship advice, to money and housing. Connexions has the capacity to give very good careers advice, but one wonders if it is spread too thin.
In response to these difficulties the Government's new guidance paper suggests reviews, consultations and task forces. We therefore feel that this Bill, and indeed this guidance, has missed an opportunity to reinvent careers advice. These amendments go some way to reassuring noble Lords that the advice given
2 Nov 2009 : Column 45
We are delighted to accept the Government's concessions, but we feel that while these amendments help to prevent further dangers to careers advice which the ambiguous old Clause 36 could have brought in, they do not go nearly far enough.
Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I, too, thank the Ministers and the Bill team for all the discussions that we have had on these various clauses. Although the Bill does not address careers education in great detail, as the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, has set out, we welcome the fact that Amendment 222 is considerably clearer than the old Clause 36 and that it puts apprenticeships as an option worthy of equal consideration.
In considering these amendments we are mindful of the strategy document Quality, Choice and Aspiration, which the Minister mentioned, because a key to many people's engagement in school is that at an early stage they can see relevance in learning and can gain confidence in their proficiency and raise their aspirations. I note from the impact assessment document that,
- "it is about much more than this. It is about exciting young people about their future lives and it is about raising their aspirations about what they can achieve".
Those who fail to make that connection very often become bored and frustrated, and that leads to difficulties later in life. We welcome the strategy proposals of personal tutors and taster sessions of HE and the workplace, and that by September 2010 there will be
That document expresses the importance of careers education in a way that is lacking in this Bill. We felt an opportunity had been lost in the Bill to support the careers service more effectively, but we very much support the clear intentions in these Government amendments as a step in the right direction and we thank the Minister for bringing them forward.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I will very briefly respond to the noble Lords opposite. We are aiming to meet the concerns raised in Committee about the need to put apprenticeships on an equal footing with other post-16 choices. I appreciate that
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I thank noble Lords for recognising that we have listened to them on the amendments. We are 100 per cent committed to ensuring that children and young people get really strong careers advice. It is important that teachers, lead teachers and governors, indeed the whole schools sector, are fully involved in that, and that the Connexions service is properly connected. There are variations in the quality of service, as the strategy recognises, although we differ with the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, on the question of having one service for all ages. I appreciate the support that noble Lords have given to these amendments.
Clause 40 : Employer support for employee study and training
27: Clause 40, page 20, line 37, at end insert-
"( ) a documented discussion of training needs resulting in a decision on whether to extend such provision to the applicant took place within the previous 12 months"
Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, Amendment 27, in my name and that of my noble friend Baroness Sharp, and proposed by the Institute of Directors, has been previously debated, but we feel that it is worth bringing it up again.
In addition to the listed permissible grounds to refuse study or training, the Institute of Directors proposes that a valid refusal could be that there had been a documented discussion of training needs, resulting in a decision whether to extend such provision to the applicant, in the previous 12 months. This is based on evidence from its members, the majority of whom already use regular performance reviews or appraisals to manage performance and training requirements. In businesses where this is in place, the IoD argues that these discussions should be the preferred time when employees make their requests, thereby enabling businesses to manage the process of training allocation fairly. This would benefit employers and employees by reinforcing good practice and encouraging employers to discuss and to document training needs at least annually.
Many businesses, as we know, have a limited amount of time off for training that they can offer staff. Being able to consider all staff training requests together
2 Nov 2009 : Column 47
In Committee, my noble friend Lady Sharp expressed the concern that the training needs of younger people, the 16 to 18 year-olds, might change more rapidly and that a review might be required within 12 months. That group should, in any event, be involved in a structured training programme. This amendment would not prevent training needs being reviewed more frequently but would increase the incentive for both sides to make a longer-term assessment of what will benefit the individual and the organisation. I beg to move.
Lord De Mauley: My Lords, we welcome the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, which would mean that an employer who already has documented annual appraisals that include the discussion of training needs will fulfil their obligations under the clauses on the right to request time to train. We tabled similar amendments in Committee, to which the Minister responded:
"Time to train goes with the grain of what the best employers are already doing".-[Official Report, 29/6/09; col. 53.]
In the light of this, perhaps he will have some sympathy for this amendment, which would complement the time-to-train provisions while ensuring that employers are protected.
This amendment comes from the Institute of Directors, of which I disclose that I am a member, and is designed to reflect the fact that many employers already have regular and successful employment appraisals in which training needs can be discussed. Figures from the IoD show that 88 per cent of its members already use,
Does the Minister agree that if an employer has these sessions in place, this would be the appropriate time to raise any requests for training?
While we agree with the principle that employees should have the right to request time to train, we do not want this to become an onerous burden on employers. It seems particularly inappropriate that the burden should fall on employers who have already put effort into organising regular training discussions with their employees. Moreover, as we have already heard, such organised training discussions have the added bonus of ensuring that employers can ensure the fairness of the allocation of granted requests for time off to train.
We ought to encourage employers who have shown the initiative to extend these provisions to their employees on a voluntary basis, on the grounds that the more they help to improve the skills of their staff the more successful their business can become. We should not instead tie them to statutory provisions that are imposed from without and that might hinder the efficient operation of business and training rather than help it. I look forward to the Minister's response.
5.15 pm
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, Amendment 27 raises an issue with which we are familiar, which has been considered in Committee in this House and in another place. It proposes providing
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Our clear intention in establishing the new right is to reflect what the best employers are doing. I fully expect employers who are already engaging in a regular, systematic and meaningful dialogue with their employees about their skills needs to receive far fewer requests under these provisions than those employers who are not yet taking skills and training seriously. Furthermore, the legislation as we have proposed it-without this amendment-gives the best employers ample reasons to turn down requests that they receive where they consider they must do so for sound business reasons.
I said in Committee that after the new provisions have been in force for a year, we will carry out a review, with stakeholders, to examine whether we need to augment the list of reasons for employers to refuse a request. So, we have recognised the need for a review process. Since Committee stage we have announced that we plan to phase the introduction of these provisions to give businesses with fewer than 250 employees an extra year to prepare for their introduction. I am happy to commit today that we will complete that review and consider its conclusions before extending the new right to all qualifying employees in 2011.
On that basis, I would be grateful if the noble Baroness would withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response, which I am afraid was as disappointing as I thought it might be after the previous discussions. We do not accept that employers would hide behind this as an excuse for not acknowledging training needs. I hear what he says, but, in spite of his reassurances, I do not find his answer satisfactory. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
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Contents 65; Not-Contents 131.
Addington, L. [Teller]
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Barker, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cotter, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crisp, L.
Dear, L.
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