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I supported strongly the change from 26 to 11-except that I would have preferred seven. I said that for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney. However, we are in a time of change and I am not comfortable with the proposed dates. A great deal of change is going to take place. However, we are almost at the end of 2009 and it does not appear that the jobs that were supposed to have been completed by the end of 2009 are going to happen. We are into November, the parliamentary term ends within three weeks and I cannot see the expected changes taking place in 2009.
The order refers also to this taking place in 2010. Is it December 2010 or January 2010? It clearly probably is not January 2010, but the order does not give any indication within 12 months as to when it is expected. Paragraph 4.1 of the Explanatory Notes to the electoral law order states:
"This Order is needed to postpone the preparation of the draft polling station scheme that is due to take place in 2009 until 2010".
That could cover 24 months or, as it now stands, two months. Perhaps the Minister can provide clarity on that.
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As to the DEAC's responsibilities for communication, the pragmatic approach of not forcing him to publish the preliminary offerings in the newspapers in order to save money seems very sensible, although the noble Lord opposite may not be terribly happy about that for other reasons. In principle, I agree with all that is being done and my comments are in no way a criticism of the DEAC, whom I have known for a number of years. However, I fear that the timescale lacks realism.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for introducing these two orders. Regarding the first, although traditionally we on these Benches are sceptical about interfering with the usual practicalities that underpin the democratic process, in this case it is sensible to make an exception. It would be a waste of time, energy and resources to prepare a draft polling scheme for Northern Ireland before the review of boundaries for the 11 new local government districts has been finalised. Changes to boundaries could mean that previous arrangements are no longer suitable, or more appropriate polling stations could present themselves in a particular ward. We therefore support the first order.
I have slightly more points to make about the second order. We very much welcome the increase, from one month to eight weeks, of the period in which representations on the provisional recommendations can be made. However, we are a little concerned that the proposal will give the DEAC a choice of whether to publish the provisional recommendations or simply to make them available for inspection. As we know, Northern Ireland is undertaking a radical reorganisation of local government, moving from 26 borough councils to 11. There will naturally be a great deal of interest from the general public in how current wards will be organised and which new local council area they will find themselves living in. Given that this is such a radical change, and not simply a small shift in boundaries, it is important for the people of Northern Ireland to be able to assess and have access to this information as easily as possible.
Again, while we appreciate the costs involved in publishing the full provisional recommendations, we are concerned that simply making them available for inspection is not, by itself, sufficient. How will local people know that the recommendations are available for inspection? How will they know where and when to go to see them? It could be very difficult for some people in rural areas to travel to see the recommendations.
Finally, can the Minister at the very least assure the Committee that, if the DEAC decides just to make the recommendations available for inspection and not to publish locally, notification will be given in local newspapers so that local people will know that the recommendations are available to be looked at, and where and when they can do so? Can the Minister also assure the Committee that everything possible will be done to ensure that the recommendations are easily accessible for local people?
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness for her presentation of the orders. I found the comments of the noble Lords, Lord Glentoran and Lord Smith of Clifton, very interesting. It is interesting that the Conservative Party, together with the Ulster Unionist Party, now opposes the 11 new
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Lord Glentoran: I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I hope that I said, as I think I did, that when I referred to there being seven councils it was a personal view.
Lord Kilclooney: I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, has now dissociated himself from the Ulster Unionists and the Conservative Party on this matter.
I welcome the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, about advertising. I declare an interest, which is fully recorded in the Register. I know something about this subject. I think that the noble Lord would agree that people in Northern Ireland take a tremendous interest in elections and who has the right to vote. They want to know what is happening. Of course, on this occasion there is to be a major upheaval in local government in Northern Ireland and they will be keen to know what is being proposed. I am sorry to hear, yet again, that the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, wants to limit their ability to know what is going on behind their backs. He wants to reduce the publicity about the changes in local government in Northern Ireland. Perhaps on this occasion he will, once again, dissociate himself from the Ulster Unionists and the Conservative Party.
Advertising on radio and in weekly papers for all kinds of elections in Northern Ireland is now a matter of great concern within the media industry, which is very disturbed by the policy of the Government and the public agencies. They seem to be creating further problems as we go down the line of trying to reduce costs in electoral activities. No longer are government agencies getting value for money; more and more, they are involving a decreasing number of the population in Northern Ireland.
The most recent example is the European election. Postal vote applications were advertised on Classic FM, which is not one of the most popular radio stations in the west of Ulster; it may perhaps be very popular in North Down, but it is certainly not throughout the rest of the Province. They were also advertised in the Belfast Telegraph, which mainly circulates among the half a million or so people living in greater Belfast, not among the other 1,250,000 people living outside the city, and in the News of the World, which is not popular among many Protestants and Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland. They were not advertised in the weekly papers that are read by the wider population in Northern Ireland. What was the net result? In the recent European election in Northern Ireland, there was a dramatic decrease in the number of people who applied for postal votes.
Paragraph 7 of the Explanatory Memorandum is entitled "Policy Background". It refers to 100 electors. Is that 100 electors in the new district council areas or in the 26 district council areas?
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Baroness Crawley: It is in the original council areas.
Lord Kilclooney: That clears that up. The 26 district council areas vary greatly in size, from Moyle, which has about 10,000 people, to Belfast, which has maybe 250,000 people. That is why we are having a reorganisation of local government in Northern Ireland. It is essential that 100 people, or various groups of 100 people in each district council area, know what is being proposed. If there is just a little notice in the weekly paper stating that the information is available at some address, people will not follow it up. They have to see what is happening. There will be a lot of criticism if they do not know what is being recommended.
It is not often that I recommend something that applies in the Republic of Ireland, but I know what happens there, and it is quite sensible. Local weekly newspapers are contacted and asked to print a supplement at a special advertising rate. That works. I recommend that we apply that in Northern Ireland to involve as many of the population as possible in seeing what is happening and having the right to comment on it and to submit recommendations or alternatives.
It is important that these things go into local papers. For example, in Downpatrick, the local paper, the Down Recorder-in which I have no interest-sells more copies than the Belfast Telegraph, the News Letter and the Irish News combined. In Dungannon, more copies of the Tyrone Courier are sold than the Belfast Telegraph, the News Letter and the Irish News combined. Noble Lords can see the importance of weekly papers, as opposed to daily papers or papers such as the News of the World.
There is of course a suggestion-in fact, it was an allegation, which is about to be followed up-that there is a conflict of interest if an outside agency advises on advertising policy for elections in Northern Ireland. I know that a newspaper group, with which I have no association whatever, is concerned about current electoral advertising policy; it has now employed one of the universities to investigate present government advertising policy and to advise whether the Government are getting value for money. Its report will become available for debate here in Parliament and in the Northern Ireland Assembly at the beginning of next year.
4.45 pm
Lord Lyell: I apologise to the noble Baroness but after a few seconds she may discover why I am being somewhat impudent in rising to speak. She referred to 1984 and I suspect that, if we look back to the relevant tome, she will find that I was in the position that she is in now without the knowledge that I gleaned during those years.
Many of the points that I had in mind concerning newspapers have been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney. I seem to recall that when my department-the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland, as it then was-wished to promote various pieces of information, there was great panic in Belfast about the number of local organs of communication. The noble Lord mentioned the Belfast News Letter but, going even further west than Dungannon, he may
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I believe that much of what the noble Lord suggested concerning special little supplements, with the co-operation of the local newspapers, will alleviate many of the problems that have been considered. What I have in mind, above all, are details concerning where and when one can vote. I wonder whether the Belfast News Letter, let alone the Financial Times or other great organs of world communication, is widely taken account of in Newtownstewart or elsewhere. The noble Lord should be careful: I am considered to be something of an intellectual in my home town because I take the Financial Times during the week. That may have something to do with the fact that I have time to read it here or on train journeys.
I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to take on board the excellent suggestion that local newspapers may be willing to help by producing a supplement. They are widely read and are very close to the polling stations and to what one might call the scene of the action. Therefore, they would probably be the best channel through which to promote exactly what she is trying to promote. I conclude by voicing my uncertainty about 2010, as my noble friend did so eloquently. Will it happen in December or the cold days of January?
Baroness Crawley: I thank all noble Lords for their comments. I think that in general noble Lords welcomed the orders but they obviously also raised significant concerns about some aspects. I start with the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, who asked whether the May 2011 election was still achievable and voiced his concerns about the reality of the timing. All those involved in the reorganisation of local government are working towards a May 2011 election. We are reassured by the fact that Edwin Poots, the Minister of the Environment in the Northern Ireland Executive, has indicated that he expects the Assembly to debate the legislation for which it is responsible by the end of the year. On 20 October 2009, he stated:
"I am confident that, by working together, we will achieve our goals of creating 11 strong and effective councils in May 2011".
This will allow for the remaining stages of the review, including the DEAC review that we are discussing today, to be completed in time for a May 2011 election.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, expressed his concerns about the timing of the publication of the 2010 polling station scheme. The Polling Station Scheme Regulations 1972 set out in further detail when exactly a draft polling station scheme should be prepared in the relevant year. These regulations will be updated shortly and, therefore, I cannot give the noble Lord a specific answer as to whether it will be January or December. However, the regulations that will decide that will be updated shortly. We will, of course, relay the noble Lord's concerns over timing to the chief electoral officer.
The noble Lords, Lord Smith of Clifton and Lord Kilclooney, raised concerns about the removal of the requirement for DEAC to publish his recommendations in local newspapers. The noble Lords feel that this will make them less accessible to sections of the community.
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Lord Kilclooney: I am concerned by the comment that the intention is to increase access for the public to these proposals. I hope that the noble Baroness took note of my comments on what happened in the recent European elections, when the same new advertising policy was pursued and resulted in a dramatic decrease in the number of applications for postal votes.
Baroness Crawley: I take note of that. As a former MEP, like the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, I find it concerning; I do not like the sound of it at all. However, I suggest that the methods by which people access information are changing all the time. While I accept that many people will go to their local newspaper to find out what is happening electorally-I accept also the high level and sophistication of electoral interest in Northern Ireland-many will gain access through the website. The DEAC intends to publish his provisional recommendations on his website. He will make them available for viewing in DEAC offices, in libraries, in council offices and in local area offices. That will be made clear when he publishes the notice. Copies will also be provided to, for instance, groups that represent those with disabilities, who would find access even more difficult.
Lord Smith of Clifton: The point about the newspaper supplement idea and publishing in newspapers generally is that they have a tremendous reinforcing effect. When we see something on screen, it is instantaneous-here today and gone tomorrow-but when you have a newspaper that lies around the house for a week it is a constant memo to you to do something about it.
Baroness Crawley: I absolutely agree with noble Lords that it is important that we get this right and get the message to as many potential electors as possible. I shall certainly raise the concerns expressed today about public awareness with the Electoral Commission. As noble Lords will know, the Electoral Commission has responsibility for raising public awareness-it is one of the reasons for its existence-in relation to postal voting and so on. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, referred to the recent European elections. Again, we come back to the role and responsibility of the Electoral Commission.
Lord Kilclooney: When the noble Baroness goes to bed, she can take her weekly newspaper with her, but not her computer.
Baroness Crawley: Well, it depends. As they say, it is a matter of size-you can sometimes get a lot of information on BlackBerrys-but I take the noble Lord's point. The DEAC must still publish a notice saying where those recommendations may be inspected.
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I have probably covered most points. The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, spoke about advertising and raising public awareness of elections. I repeat that that is a matter for the Electoral Commission, to which we shall happily relay his views-as well as his great experience from 1984, when he stood here.
Lord Lyell: The noble Baroness has been kind enough to refer to 1984. In fact, it was during my six summers in Northern Ireland that I became aware that one particular area may have more than just one newspaper. I mentioned County Fermanagh because when one-it might have been me or perhaps my noble friend Lord King-was putting out news in a communiqué from the Department of Agriculture to the Fermanagh Herald, which covered one particular but widely spread section of the community, and the Impartial Reporter, one had to transpose the photographs. Different communiqués over matters such as pigs, cattle or calves would have to be given to different newspapers covering one county. I am sure that the Minister and the department will take good care of that. She has been very kind to lay to rest my worry that people would not be totally aware at a local level of what might be relevant. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Smith, put it beautifully when he said that, when something is broadcast on screen, via Ulster Television, for example-or indeed on Downtown Radio-it might be just here and there, whereas when it is in a newspaper you know that it is all there. However, the Minister has reassured me fully and I thank her very much.
District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2009
Copy of the SI
21st Report from the JCSI
Considered in Grand Committee
4.59 pm
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that is has considered the District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2009.
Private Security Industry Act 2001 (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 2009
Copy of the SI
22nd Report from the JCSI
Considered in Grand Committee
5 pm
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that is has considered the Private Security Industry Act 2001 (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 2009.
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Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Private Security Industry Act 2001 (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 21 May 2009, be considered. I shall also speak to the draft Private Security Industry Act 2001 (Amendments to Schedule 2) Order 2009, a copy of which was laid before this House on 12 October 2009. I welcome this opportunity to put these proposals before the Committee today. I will deal with the detail of each order in turn but, before doing so, I will provide context for the proposed amendments.
The fifth report of the Independent Monitoring Commission stated that there was direct evidence of paramilitary involvement in the private security industry in Northern Ireland, resulting in many firms suffering from extortion. It stated that the current, temporary control regime in Northern Ireland was less stringent than the regime in England, Wales and Scotland and was insufficient in preventing paramilitary infiltration of the industry.
The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee identified the potential for exploitation of the industry by paramilitaries and organised criminals. It recommended that the regulation of the private security industry in Northern Ireland be dealt with as a matter of priority. It also identified the need for appropriate training and registration of door supervisors and noted the problems with the form of self-regulation that is encouraged by some, but not all, councils throughout Northern Ireland.
These reports led the Government to undertake a thorough review of the private security industry in Northern Ireland. A consultation document entitled Regulating the Private Security Industry in Northern Ireland was circulated to organisations representing the private security industry, political parties, relevant local authority organisations and a wide variety of other organisations that have an interest in or avail themselves of private security services. This document set out the options for regulation and highlighted the Government's preference to extend the remit of the Security Industry Authority, the regulatory body in England, Wales and Scotland, to Northern Ireland.
The Government took into account all comments and views in relation to developing a new scheme of regulation for the industry in Northern Ireland. After carefully considering the options for regulation, the Government believe that, on balance, extending the remit of the SIA is the right way forward. The SIA is the organisation responsible for regulating the private security industry in Great Britain. It is an independent body reporting to the Home Secretary under the terms of the Private Security Industry Act 2001.
The aims of the SIA are to regulate the private security industry effectively and to reduce criminality, raise standards and recognise quality service. The SIA has two main duties. One is the compulsory licensing of individuals undertaking designated activities within the private security industry; the other is to manage the voluntary approved contractor scheme, which measures private security suppliers against independently assessed criteria.
SIA licensing covers manned guarding-including security guarding, door supervision, close protection, cash and valuables in transit, and public space surveillance
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