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Underlying this debate is the fact that all noble Lords in this House understand fully the Government's desire and society's need to act against trafficking and forced prostitution. My noble friend Lady O'Cathain was absolutely spot on in making that point. This horrific trade in humans must be stopped and I would fully support any measure that would improve the chances of prosecuting those who knowingly-I underline the word-pay for sex with a coerced woman.
My noble friend Lord McColl and the most reverend Primate made in part the same point, which is that the man concerned in the transaction must assure himself that he is not about to pay for sex with a trafficked or exploited woman. How easy it is to say, but how difficult to achieve. If someone asks a prostitute whether she has been trafficked, the inevitable answer will be "No". If she is being exploited, the inevitable answer will be "No", because otherwise the pimp or whoever will come down on her like a ton of bricks and the woman will be even more frightened than she is already.
I side with those who do not believe that the offence as drafted in the Bill would achieve the objective that we all want to see. Also, I do not believe that it would lead to a cultural shift among men who frequent prostitutes, as the Minister appears to believe that it would. In Committee, he argued that these amendments would allow men to get away with the sort of behaviour that we all want to stop because they could say that they did not know the circumstances of the prostitute. However, this argument has been challenged again
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We are about to hear what the Minister has to say. I suspect, as I said earlier, that he will maintain that this absolute offence of strict liability will do the job. I am afraid to tell him that, from my point of view, it will not.
The Attorney-General (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, as you will see, I rise to reply to the amendments on behalf of the Government. I say to all noble Lords who have contributed that the debate has done the House justice on this very important amendment.
Noble Lords will not be surprised that I agree, without reservation, with all of those who support the Government's case-the noble Lords, Lord McColl and Lord Morrow, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York, the noble Baronesses, Lady Howarth and Lady O'Cathain, and, through her, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, who is absolutely right in his assessment that without strict liability this offence will be meaningless. I of course take great note of what the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, says, but I prefer the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern.
I understand the reservations of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Stern and Lady Howe. However, although there were many powerful speeches in support of the Government's case, one of the most poignant came from the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, who had the privilege-it must have been a privilege-of hearing directly from the women who suffer and about whom we speak. We should not cloak ourselves in the impression that what we are talking about are the civil liberties of the purchaser. What we are talking about is the abuse, degradation, humiliation and pain caused to women who engage in this activity, not because they desire it but because they are compelled, coerced and manacled in a way that no human being should be. The pain described by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, and which was referred to poignantly by the noble Lords, Lord McColl and Lord Morrow, and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York, is very real indeed.
We are faced with a choice tonight: do we speak for the victims, do we stand up for those who have no voice for themselves, do we stand in the breach for them-or do we provide a cloak of anonymity and protection for those who do not wish to face what they do when they purchase sex from a woman or a man, quite often of tender years, who has been coerced or forced into that position? With great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who knows that I hold him in the highest esteem and affection, we should not cloak ourselves with nice legal arguments about secondary or primary participants. I need to be clear that the Government's view is that those who purchase sex from people in that position commit a wrong. They enable a situation that is avoidable to continue. We have a choice tonight to decide on which stand we will set our mark. Who will we support, and who will we defend?
The Government do not hesitate in saying that we hope that this offence will have a "chilling effect" on those who buy sex from the vulnerable and the weak and from people who they do not know-on each person who buys sexual favours for money from a prostitute, be they male or female. If the consequence of this amendment would be to deprive us of an opportunity to protect people, then our position is that that would be very wrong.
I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, because I know that her intention is to help to protect those who are vulnerable. We are not apart in that, but she is right that there are different views about how we should do it. She knows that when we embarked on the consultation process, we did so openly. There was no limit to what we were willing to consider. We looked hard at the issue, and over the summer we considered all the things that we had heard. However, there is evidence and then there is something else-it is called judgment.
We have to make a judgment about what is best. It is the Government's judgment that we need to draw a line in the sand and say to individuals, "If you wish to purchase sex from an individual, you can-there is no impediment to you doing that-but you have to be sure from whom you are purchasing. You have to be sure that that person isn't coerced, that they are of the right age and that you are not in fact engaging in sexual abuse. If you are not sure, then maybe you should buy from someone else".
Lord Thomas of Gresford: Does the Minister agree that if the person is in the category of being coerced, even if the customer, to use that expression, is sure by reason of all the inquiries that he has made, he is still committing a criminal offence?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: The noble Lord uses the issue of whether someone is sure. The noble Lord knows as well as I do that those who find themselves acting as prostitutes are often some of the most vulnerable and delicate people there are. If, after making an inquiry, from the observation that they have of the individual and the circumstances in which that individual is found, a person can be sure that that individual is not being coerced, then that is a matter for them. I hear the noble Lord's point, though, that that person cannot be sure. If he cannot be sure, maybe he should buy from somewhere else.
There are many noble Lords here tonight. I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, said about the timing of this debate. It has always been the privilege of the Government not to have any control at all over timing-it is one of the joys of the House of Lords. As a result, the timing is that dictated by the House, and there are enough noble Lords here tonight to do us justice. We have a decision to make for which we will be held to account by victims and those who look to us for succour. I invite the House to reject these amendments and to vote for those who are at risk.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, if there was one justification for tabling these amendments, it has been the quality of the debate tonight. If there was one reason to hold the debate, the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, expressed it. It has made us all learn a great deal more about a way of life that mostly goes unseen, un-noted and undebated by this House. So in no way do I regret tabling the amendments.
We have learnt a great deal more this evening. We have heard both the perfect world solution and what the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, referred to as the imperfect world solution. I hope that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, will follow through this debate with developing those routes out of prostitution. We have not yet debated the next clauses in this part, but they do not look as though they try to develop routes out as much as criminalising the women, forcing them into rehabilitation, developing problems for them when they do not comply with the orders, closing down brothels and so on. That part of the Bill gives a very negative feeling to what the Minister gave a very positive view of this evening-and I hope that the Government return to that more positive feeling that she expressed in summing up.
I shall not enter into the lion's den again of the legal arguments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. It is clear that there are immense problems around this. If the Government have their way and this goes forward unamended, we will be back here debating whether it is proving workable and whether there is a better solution. Tonight, the right thing to do will be to allow this experiment-and it is an experiment-to go forward. We will not continue to oppose the Government in this, but I plead with them to develop a far more positive attitude to the other clauses in the Bill and not leave us with a negative feeling when we debate those clauses, starting with the very next clause, which leaves the under-18s criminalised. The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, made a very powerful speech, but she must remember that the negative point with which this Bill starts is that it leaves children under 18 as criminals. They are still criminalised; they should be seen by the law as victims and not criminals, as the Government wish to leave them in this Bill.
We will not oppose this clause tonight. The debate has stiffened our resolve to keep a very close eye on this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Some Lords objected to the request for leave to withdraw the amendment, so it was not granted.
The Chairman decided on a show of voices that Amendment 20 was disagreed.
Consideration on Report adjourned.
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