| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kinnock, L.
Laird, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lipsey, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Myners, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Northover, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Ouseley, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
9 Nov 2009 : Column 604
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Radice, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Ripon and Leeds, Bp.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rogan, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tyler, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
West of Spithead, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Baroness Thornton: I have spoken to these amendments with Amendment 1.
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 11 and do propose Amendments 11A to 11G as consequential amendments to the Bill.
Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 11. I shall also speak to government Amendments 11A to 11G.
Amendment 11 was one of a series tabled by my right honourable friend the Member for Makerfield, Ian McCartney, and the honourable Member for Colchester, Bob Russell, in the other place. Their amendments sought to remove the power to impose restrictions on sales of tobacco from vending machines,
9 Nov 2009 : Column 605
As I have previously made clear, the Government recognise that there is a serious problem with young people accessing tobacco from vending machines and that action needs to be taken. Vending machines are currently the usual source of cigarettes for 10 per cent of 11 to 15 year-olds who say they smoke. In 2008, the Local Authorities Co-ordinators of Regulatory Services reported that 40 per cent of test purchases carried out by trading standards across England resulted in underage sales from vending machines.
I do not intend to rehearse the many arguments we have had about nicotine being highly addictive, or that some 200,000 children aged between 11 and 15 are regular smokers. It is clear why the Government are so concerned.
As we debated in your Lordships' House, the issue of tobacco-vending machines continues to raise strong views across all parties. On Report in the other place, all parties were offered a free vote and Amendment 11 was accepted. As it was the result of a free vote, the Secretary of State for Health made clear in his Third Reading speech in the other place that the will of that House would be respected and the Government would not seek to overturn the amendment.
This amendment requires that we do what 16 other European states have done-ban the sale of tobacco from vending machines. The UK leads the world on many tobacco-control policies and yet in this aspect we are behind. The tobacco-vending machine industry has had at least 10 years to get the operating companies to adhere to their voluntary code to stop underage sales from vending machines and this has not been successful.
The consequential government Amendments 11A to 11G give Amendment 11, agreed in the other place, its full effect. These consequential amendments remove all remaining references to restrictions from the vending-machine clauses and omit wording in the Bill which is not required in the context of a ban. They replicate the other amendments that were tabled by the right honourable Member for Makerfield on Commons Report but which were not reached. They ensure that Clause 22 would be workable and also align Clause 23 on Northern Ireland with England and Wales. We can confirm that Ministers in both Wales and Northern Ireland are also committed to prohibiting the sale of tobacco from vending machines in accordance with these amendments.
The Government are committed to protecting our children from the harms of smoking and the prohibition of sales of tobacco from vending machines represents a step forward to achieving this aim. I beg to move.
4.30 pm
As an amendment to the Motion, leave out from "House" to end and insert "do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment 11".
9 Nov 2009 : Column 606
Earl Howe: My Lords, in considering the amendments before us, we find ourselves in another somewhat unusual situation. Noble Lords will remember that when the Bill underwent scrutiny in this House during the early part of this year there was an outbreak of harmony between these Benches and those of the Government when we debated the provisions for cigarette-vending machines.
I do not want to misrepresent the views of anyone in this Chamber but no noble Lord felt it was defensible that children and young people under the age of 18 should continue to have access to cigarette-vending machines.
I am absolutely clear that Ministers were right to seek powers in the Bill to restrict access to such machines with that thought in mind. The exercise of the power would force vending-machine operators to come up with credible and workable systems that would have the effect of denying underage would-be smokers the means of buying cigarettes in that way. Furthermore, there was a wide measure of agreement that if, after a period of time, those measures were shown not to be effective-in other words, that children were still habitually gaining access to cigarettes from vending machines-Ministers should consider exercising the additional power set out in the Bill to ban the machines altogether.
That two-step approach was, I believe, proportionate and sensible. I say that for two main reasons. The first is that vending-machine operators have not been slow off the mark in responding to the challenge that they have been set. A number of technologies exist which are designed to prevent underage persons gaining access to vending machines. Not all of them give one confidence that they will deliver in the way that they are supposed to, but at least one technology that I have personally seen demonstrated, the radio frequency control system, not only convinced me that it would work efficiently and well but is successfully in use in a number of locations. The Department of Health recommended the use of that system in its recent consultation document. I am personally as sure as I can be that the Government were right to believe that there exists a workable means of delivering the policy objective that they have set themselves.
The second reason why I support the Government's first approach is that to proceed immediately to an outright ban on vending machines would bring about disproportionate harm and damage. The damage would be felt by pubs, which stand to lose trade from people who, from time to time, wish to access their vending machines but, more seriously, it would have an instant and devastating effect on those who depend for a living on supplying and operating such machines. There are roughly 650 people in this country whose livelihoods are earned in that way, and several hundred more in the supply chain. I do not believe that any sort of case has been made for bankrupting those individuals and putting them on to the dole queue without giving the regulatory route a chance to work.
Parliament should contemplate taking that drastic step only when all else has failed. It is not a step that should be taken lightly. The problem is that, unless we are very careful, that step will indeed be taken lightly. The Government have allowed themselves to get into
9 Nov 2009 : Column 607
For that reason alone, it is surely right that we ask the other place at least to go through the Lobby before we put 650 people out of work. Of course, we know one thing. We know that the Government have not changed their minds on the merits of the Bill as it originally stood. How do we know that? When the Division was called in another place on the McCartney amendment, Ministers were queuing up to vote against it. The Government had not given way at that stage. Indeed, I am sure that the Minister still believes in her Government's policy. She has simply allowed herself to be persuaded that, constitutionally, it would be improper for her to carry that policy through. In moving this amendment, I am suggesting to her in the strongest terms that that view is misconceived and, indeed, that she owes it to the other place to send this matter back for further consideration. She certainly owes it to those whose jobs depend on the way that this matter is finally determined.
I have no wish to be impertinent to the Minister or to overegg the case I am making, but if she does not give way on this, and if she were to carry a vote in her own Lobby, she and her colleagues will bear personal responsibility for the consequences that will ensue. There is still time for this matter to be sorted out before Parliament prorogues. If the other place is given another chance to determine the issue properly, and if it decides on a free vote that the McCartney amendment should stand, I will be in no position to argue. As it is, I argue very strongly indeed that the parliamentary process is in danger of being grossly subverted, which is why I beg to move.
Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, the noble Earl is, as always, immensely persuasive, and there are very few occasions on which I can claim to find myself in total disagreement with what he has said. There is no doubt whatever, as every Member of this House must accept, that tobacco is a potentially lethal product. It is also highly addictive, and there is clear epidemiological evidence that once children begin to smoke, they have great difficulty in giving up the habit, although many succeed. When this issue was debated fully and extensively in Committee in your Lordships' House, many of us, including me, strongly supported an amendment to abolish the sale of cigarettes from vending machines,. However, the Government did not accept that amendment and claimed that, as an interim measure and pending further consideration, they wished to impose stricter age-verification restrictions and supervision as regards vending machines.
9 Nov 2009 : Column 608
They did that despite the fact that I presented evidence that in the north-east of England, from where I come, a series of trading standards officers embarked upon an exercise in which they recruited significant numbers of volunteer young people below the age of 16 and took them round a series of establishments in which vending machines were installed to see whether they would succeed in buying cigarettes. In the majority of cases-60 per cent and sometimes 70 per cent-the children had not the slightest difficulty in purchasing cigarettes from vending machines, contrary to the existing law. In one establishment, the landlord gave the child change to put in the machine to purchase cigarettes.
The British Heart Foundation has recently conducted a number of surveys. It found that test purchases consistently show that young people regularly purchase cigarettes from vending machines. In 2008, 12 per cent of children and young people who were regular smokers usually bought their cigarettes from vending machines. The British Heart Foundation estimates that 23,000 11 to 15 year-old regular smokers access their cigarettes in this way. It has also conducted a more detailed survey of landlords in establishments where vending machines are available. It found that the age-verification restrictions that the Government initially proposed were viewed as unworkable and as a burden by a large number of landlords. The survey showed that nearly two-thirds-63 per cent-of landlords said that, during busy times, it would be impossible to check IDs and operate a machine within their line of sight. More than two-thirds-68 per cent-of pub landlords said that current proposals would be a significant extra burden on their business. Eighty-two per cent of landlords describe the revenue they receive from vending machines as "unimportant". Three-quarters of landlords would rather remove the machine than risk prosecution for underage sales. Despite the potential deficiencies in another place to which the noble Earl referred, I think Ian McCartney did us a very good service by proposing the amendment that was accepted in your Lordships' House. I trust that your Lordships will accept that amendment as tabled now by the Government and reject the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I have a little dilemma. I was present in Committee when the noble Lord, Lord Walton, was speaking to these matters and produced the very substantial evidence for the case he has just made again today. Since then, however, something has happened. In the Bishops' Bar today, I was approached by my noble friend Lady Golding, who showed me a document describing a showing in the House last week of a particular piece of equipment, which I am not as yet satisfied that MPs were aware of when they took their decision.
I dissent from the view of the noble Earl that, where a vote has not taken place, it is not necessarily an advised opinion of the House of Commons. The fact is that, where a vote was not taken, it was because the House did not object to the measure being put before the House. It could be argued that it has considered it, and there was shown a position of unanimity, even though it was the view of the noble Earl that there were some Ministers who wanted to vote against the McCartney amendment.
9 Nov 2009 : Column 609
The document shown to me by my noble friend Lady Golding should be brought to the attention of this House, because the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has alluded to it. It shows that there is available in the United Kingdom, in 600 public houses in the country, a piece of equipment that is managed and operated by a person standing behind the bar. I want to go through the sequence of events, because I believe that it actually deals with all the concerns that my noble friend has alluded to, and which Ian McCartney must have had in mind when he was moving his amendment.
"Step 1: customer requests for the machine to be enabled"-
in other words, to be made operational.
"Eye contact is made by the member of staff"-
that is, the person behind the bar, to the customer who wishes to buy the cigarettes-
in other words, if the person looks underage, then obviously the bartender would not respond in the way the customer would wish.
"Step 2: Once age verification has taken place, and the staff are certain that the person is over 18 years of age, the machine is enabled".
In other words, it is made operational.
"Step 3: The member of staff observes the sale, to make sure it is the person whose age they have verified making the purchase.
Step 4: The machine is then ready for use to vend one packet to the customer.
Step 5: After vending one packet of cigarettes, the machine reverts to standby".
In other words, it switches off automatically. Therefore, throughout the whole process of the cigarette packet being purchased from that machine, the person behind the bar is responsible for what has happened by having control over the button which enables the machine. I presume, therefore, in those conditions, that a person under 18 would not be able to purchase cigarettes.
I am not against what Mr Ian McCartney has suggested, but what I want to know is whether the Commons knew about this equipment when the decision was taken. They should have been aware of a system that the Government would have tested in the event that the legislation in its proposed form prior to the Ian McCartney amendment would have been passed. Were Members of Parliament aware of this equipment, of which I suspect most noble Lords were completely unaware until the noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to it in his contribution and I outlined it in greater detail in mine?
4.45 pm
Lord Palmer: My Lords, I, too, should like to support the noble Earl in his impassioned speech, and particularly with his reference to the farce at the other end of the building. As I have said many times during the course of this Health Bill and indeed during the passage of previous health legislation, it is the hypocrisy of Her Majesty's Government that many of us find difficult to understand. I have called twice for a complete ban on the sale of all tobacco products, the logic being that if we are not meant to smoke, we should not be able to buy them. One of the most awful things about trying to ban these vending machines is that it will serve only to increase the illicit sale of tobacco in this country.
9 Nov 2009 : Column 610
I should like to remind the noble Baroness that at the moment it is estimated that the Treasury loses £8.5 million a day as a result of the illicit tobacco trade. To save the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, having to go to the Box, that works out at £3.1 billion a year. It is for these reasons that I wholeheartedly support the noble Earl.
Lord Naseby: My Lords, having listened to a number of noble Lords speak on this amendment, I should like to say that my noble friend Lord Howe is absolutely correct. As colleagues know, I have had the privilege of serving as Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means and I have checked on what happened that evening. To be frank, the House was in a fair degree of turmoil. It was not a considered decision made on evidence. Indeed, some of the evidence was wrong because Ian McCartney said that no product considered dangerous other than cigarettes may be vended, but alcohol can still be vended today. That was an inaccuracy in his speech.
However, that is not the point, rather it is the one made by my noble friend Lord Howe, which is that the House did not give a view one way or the other. Further to that, my friend the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours-I call him that because for many years we served on the Public Accounts Committee together-is right, and indeed I have been aware of the report for a while. It is based on completely new technology, and what I find confusing is that this has been done in consultation with the Department of Health. The department has been consulted and encouraged the tobacco industry, following our Committee stage, to go for this sort of development. Trading standards, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Walton, has been consulted and is in favour of this. To my knowledge, there are no trading standards officials who are not saying that this is a major development that will restrict almost entirely the underage procurement of cigarettes from vending machines. The technology is based on radio frequencies, and I am willing to lend my copy of the report to colleagues who wish to read it.
If the Department of Health, following our Committee stage and encouraged by the Minister, is co-operating on this work, and if the vending machine companies which now have not far off 1,000 of these units out in the trade, and the trade is not 80 per cent against it-they are almost 100 per cent in favour, based on a much bigger sample than the 200 involved in the British Heart Foundation research before this was even mentioned-then this is a changed situation.
My noble friend Lord Howe is correct; the other place does need at least to consider these developments and the Minister needs to make matters clear to us, because when I made an intervention the other afternoon-I think it was on 2 November-she said that the Government has allowed operators more than 10 years to,
- "tighten up their operations to prevent underage sales of tobacco to children and young people. That is the context in which the decision was taken in another place".-[Official Report, 2/11/09; col. 3.]
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |