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Having said that, I do not want to keep on interrupting your Lordships, but I am extremely grateful for what has been done with the Bill so far to make what is a pretty bad job slightly better. The ship's sails are set contrary to each other and the rudder is bent, but at least if it does float it will float a little better for the sake of what we have done. What matters is the money.
Lord De Mauley: My Lords, as we have heard, Amendments 1 to 15 and Amendment 19 in this group address concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Layard, that the Bill, as it stood at Report, introduced the perception of a possible hierarchy of qualifications where "occupational competencies" were seen as more important than the demonstration of technical knowledge. The government amendments will remove that perception so that it will be obvious that the two component parts of an apprenticeship are seen as equal conditions of completion.
We welcome the further moves that the Government have made in that regard. Throughout the passage of the Bill through this House, we on these Benches have constantly called for further definition and clarification of the composition and requirements of apprenticeships. Furthermore, we agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Layard, that it seems inappropriate to specify so particularly that occupational competencies are more important than technical ones.
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On Report, the Minister said that he believed that it would be difficult for employers if there was a risk that apprentices could have all the necessary technical knowledge but would still not have the relevant competencies that would enable them to do a job. Consequently, it appeared that occupational competencies were more important than technical expertise. I welcome the reconsideration that the Minister has given to these amendments.
We on these Benches are also concerned to ensure that an apprenticeship certificate will be awarded only to those with the requisite competence to enable them to carry out a job effectively, but we agree with the noble Lord, Lord Layard, that there is no need to specify whether occupational or technical competencies are more important. Apprentices will need both to carry out a job. After all, it is the technical side of an apprenticeship that often separates it from any other form of work-based learning. We welcome the amendments, which remove the emphasis on occupational qualifications.
Amendments 38, 41 and 42 address the promise that the Minister laid out on Report to make the regulations allowing alternative completion conditions subject to affirmative resolution, which requires a debate in both Houses. Noble Lords will be aware of our commitment to the apprenticeships brand and we remain wary of the alternative completion conditions, which we feel have the potential to dilute that brand. We welcome the amendments tabled here which provide further reassurance that that is not the Government's intention. I very much hope that that remains the case.
In that regard, will the Minister update us on any discussions with Barnardo's and Rathbone regarding the pre-apprenticeship contract of workplace learning, which he helpfully introduced on Report? Will he confirm once again that this will be a unique programme for those in the Barnardo's and Rathbone schemes? Will he also confirm that it will only be for a period of up to a maximum of six months? What would happen to someone on a pre-apprenticeship contract, who reached six months in that contract, but could not find an employer to start their true apprenticeship training?
While we are concentrating on further amendments to the apprenticeship clause, the Minister has been asked by-among other noble Lords-my noble friend Lord Baker for an update on the status of plans for financing apprenticeships. Those who read the papers this weekend and, indeed, who have listened to this debate will be aware that documents were leaked detailing, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, some £350 million of cuts for 2010-11 that will, as an Observer article goes on,
The article I saw stated that the cuts would mainly affect those in the 19-plus age group, who want to join courses at FE colleges and independent training companies to become apprentices. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, also referred to this. Does the Minister accept that these facts and figures, worryingly, appear to cast doubt on the Government's commitment to apprenticeships and reskilling Britain-all at a time when it is most necessary? Given the statements of
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Like the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, we welcome the intentions behind Amendment 20. We believe that it is of the utmost importance to make sure that people are given the opportunity to train, to acquire a skill, to reskill and to fulfil their ambitions. We want to ensure that all are given the greatest opportunity to ensure that their aspirations and choice, rather than bureaucracy and burden, lead the way in skills, and that no one will be held back. We also welcome the government amendment, which will promote the desirability of those training at level 2 undertaking apprenticeship training at level 3.
We on these Benches want to see more and more people taking up apprenticeships and moving forward with them. To do this, we would simplify the structure, decrease the paperwork involved and so make it easier for companies to run apprenticeships. We would create a streamlined system, which would allow people to move forward with their training and gain the skills necessary to equip them for the workplace-the skills that employers really need and are relevant to jobs.
One cannot simply legislate and hope that these benefits will accrue. Can the Minister explain how he hopes the new clause will function in practice? We welcome the intentions, but we wait to see whether they are supported by a practical and effective structure which would truly promote participation in level 3 apprenticeships.
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I must admit that I was hoping for rather more concord than we have perhaps seen in this debate. In relation to the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, about skills strategy statements, I think the Secretary of State will be making a statement about that tomorrow. I hope that some concerns will be addressed in it.
The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, returned to the question of whether I was being unfair as regards conspiracy. My first piece of advice is not to believe everything you read in the newspapers; it does not mean that they are facts. I reject what I felt was a rather wide-ranging criticism when he said that this is the latest in a round of fiascos. I will come to our track record on apprenticeships and skills in a while.
Lord Ramsbotham: In talking about the latest fiasco, I was quoting the chairman of the chambers of skills and commerce. That was not me speaking; it was the chambers of commerce.
4 pm
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My apologies to the noble Lord. I reject the criticism of the chambers of commerce. I would argue that it has been the beneficiary of significant government funding in relation to skills and training.
The noble Lord, Lord Baker, made another wide-ranging contribution, which I am not sure focused always on the amendments. Certainly, I sometimes
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In relation to FE colleges, I cannot help but remind the noble Lord that when we came to power in 1997, the National Audit Office-not us-said that we had inherited a crumbling infrastructure; so much for the contribution to FE by previous Conservative Administrations. We do not have pious intentions; we put our money where our policies and our mouths are. That is why we have invested more than £2 billion, with the result that many FE colleges have benefited from having new buildings.
I was absolutely puzzled by the noble Lord's reference to regional authorities being done away with. I think he was confusing his party's possible policies-should it ever assume power-with ours. We are absolutely committed to RDAs. I understand people's concerns in relation to funding generally. The noble Lord, Lord Elton, sought an assurance that we would commence this provision when funds were available. We are absolutely committed to funding the Bill's provisions. Time and again we have reinforced our commitment to apprenticeships. We remain confident that we will deliver the targets we have set. A separate discussion is going on across government about how to make the most of the money that is available.
Lord Baker of Dorking: I pay generous tribute to what the Government have done for further education. The past 25 years, under the previous Conservative Government and the present Government, have been a golden age for further education. As a result, wonderful colleges have been built which no local authority would ever have funded by itself. However, that has now stopped absolutely. The capital programmes of further education colleges have been slashed. I can give the noble Lord a list of the institutions that have now had their funding withdrawn. We on this side seek an undertaking from him that the funding of FE colleges will not be cut in the course of the next two years.
Lord Young of Norwood Green: Certainly we could not meet all the commitments that FE colleges were invited to submit, but the funding has not stopped and some programmes are still going ahead. Therefore, I reject the view that they have been slashed. To my knowledge there are no cuts, although the programme is not advancing as it has in the past. I shall see whether I can give a more accurate answer on that.
As I said, I hope that a Statement on funding will be made tomorrow. I say once again that, given our track record, I am absolutely baffled by the suggestion that the Government are not fully committed to apprenticeships, skills and training. More money is being spent on skills and training than ever before. As I have said on a number of occasions, noble Lords should look at our track record on apprenticeships, given that the apprenticeship programme we inherited was nearly dead on its feet.
I thought the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, was inviting me to give way but I say to him that the facts speak for themselves. If he wishes me to reiterate
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Lord Hunt of Wirral: The Minister forces me to intervene, which I had not intended to do. However, I recall that he very kindly promised no longer to maintain the fiction that a disastrous situation had been inherited. The Government Front Bench conceded that by getting to 65,000 from zero the concept of the modern apprenticeships had been proved. It should then have gathered pace and accelerated, but over 12 years it did not. However, let us not go backwards but forward as we strongly support the concept of the modern apprenticeship.
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, we shall have to agree to disagree; I stand by the statement that I have made.
My noble friend Lady Blackstone asked me to reiterate the assurance on delivering apprenticeships. We will ask the National Apprenticeship Service to develop and publish an apprenticeship offer delivery plan in 2010-11. In preparing this plan, the NAS will review direct employer funding arrangements in England and work with the CBI, the Federation of Small Businesses, the Apprenticeship Ambassadors Network and others to identify and better understand disincentives for employers, and work out how these barriers can be addressed effectively.
The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, asked for an assurance on Rathbone and Barnardo's. I am happy to confirm that the arrangements are as I set out on Report. It is intended that the pre-apprenticeship contract period will be strictly limited to six months. If Rathbone and Barnardo's could not find an employer, they would have to address that in each individual case. The track record of those organisations demonstrates a real determination to ensure that they get young people into employment. If they could not succeed on an apprenticeship, maybe they would have to find another route. I do not know. The people who are more used to dealing with such cases should be able to provide the answers, but I am confident that they do not easily give up on young people. They have a good track record. We are trying to assist them and we have certainly done that.
We are spending more than £1 billion this year on apprenticeships, which is a record amount. We are committed to sustaining the maximum number of not only adults' but young people's apprenticeships. As I have said previously, we spent a large amount on adult apprenticeships last year and we are trying to sustain that this year-possibly not at quite the level of last year. We have indicated that while our focus was on ensuring that we generated the maximum number of apprenticeships in the 16 to 18 age range, there was more flexibility in the 19 to 24 age range. Given all the speculation that there has been in various press articles, the matter will be better addressed tomorrow when my noble friend the Secretary of State makes his Statement.
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I hope that I can end on a positive note. I thank my noble friend Lord Layard for his generous recognition that we have worked hard to address and meet noble Lords' concerns. I thank all noble Lords who have responded to efforts to improve the Bill. As with all Bills, it is capable of improvement en route. I believe that I have addressed most of the questions raised. I urge noble Lords to support the amendment.
Clause 2 : Meaning of "completing a Welsh apprenticeship"
Clause 17 : Transitional provision: England
Clause 22 : Transitional provision: Wales
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Clause 27 : Contents of specification of apprenticeship standards for England
Clause 31 : Contents of specification of apprenticeship standards for Wales
Clause 32 : Meaning of "apprenticeship agreement"
Clause 39 : Interpretation of Chapter
Clause 44 : Power to require provision of education by further education institution
16: Clause 44, page 26, line 39, at end insert-
"(3A) Before giving a notice under subsection (2) imposing a requirement on a governing body, a local education authority must consult-
(a) the governing body, and
(b) such other persons as the authority think appropriate."
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Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, Amendment 16 fulfils the commitment that I made during our debate on Report to re-examine the power for local authorities to direct colleges to accept a named individual. Noble Lords will recall that there was strong feeling that this power should be exercised only following statutory consultation with the governing body of the college. We have listened to noble Lords and this amendment ensures that this is the case. It also enables consultation with other relevant persons.
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