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Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, the amendment will make the first exercise of the regulation-making power on statutory safeguarding targets subject to the affirmative procedure. It follows my commitment to consider the amendment of, and points made by, the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Verma, on Report, when I gained a strong sense from the
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Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for accepting the idea that there should be affirmative resolution, which was in my Amendment 200 at the Report stage. It is right that Parliament has the opportunity to debate these targets, even though they will have been consulted on very widely with the professionals. Parliamentarians are very concerned about the issues surrounding the targets and it is right that their voice should be heard.
During the debate in Parliament, I have no doubt that Members will want to explore the matter of the resources available. You have to will the means as well as the ends. It is terribly important that there are resources to fulfil these targets-financial, human and training resources-to ensure that a sufficient number of qualified people are there, with the right experience to be able to carry out the work, so that each local authority in the country can hit those targets. I hope that will then focus the Government's mind on the fact that Members of Parliament put the safeguarding of their children very high in the order of priorities. When that happens, I hope that the Treasury is listening.
It is very unfortunate when local authorities feel that they have to choose between youth services and safeguarding children, as Nottinghamshire had to do recently. Following a negative inspection, it countered that it had had a 43 per cent increase in the number of referrals for safeguarding issues in the past 12 months. That is very hard for any local authority to deal with. As a result, it has put an improvement plan into place, but to pay for that it has had to cut youth services, Connexions and a teenage pregnancy programme. That is not right. We have to make sure that the Treasury is clear about this and that Members of Parliament make it very clear when they make their speeches, when these targets come before them, that the Treasury needs to put the money in to will the means as well as the ends.
Baroness Verma: My Lords, we thank the Government for this amendment. We spoke warmly in support of these intentions on Report and very much welcome the fact that these regulations will be subject to affirmative procedure. I thank the Minister once again for her assiduous desire to achieve consensus on the parts of the Bill where that is achieved.
Viscount Eccles: My Lords, as a member of the Delegated Powers Committee, I ask for an assurance that the correspondence between the Government and
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Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I know that I have cleared a letter that has gone in the direction of the committee. It is another letter that we have circulated. I agree with the noble Viscount that it is very important that the committees are properly informed and that we meet the deadlines on all these matters.
Clause 217 : Arrangements etc. to be made by Commission
32: Clause 217, page 133, line 20, at end insert-
"(3) The information published under subsection (2)(b) must include details of assistance available to each of the following-
(a) a pupil at a qualifying school (see section 205(6)(d)) who is, or has been, looked after by a local authority (within the meaning given by section 22(1) of the Children Act 1989);
(b) a person who has a disability (within the meaning of section 1(1) of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995);
(c) a person who has special educational needs (within the meaning of section 312 of the Education Act 1996)."
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I was about to attempt to move this formally, but that would have been most inappropriate.
We now move to part of the Bill looking at the system of complaints in schools. I assure noble Lords that we intend to make the system that we are developing work efficiently and effectively for parents, children and young people, and it will be properly developed and rolled out through a phased approach. I assure noble Lords that the complaints commissioner will make information and guidance accessible to groups of vulnerable children, including those with special educational needs, those who are, or have been, looked after and those with disabilities.
The DCSF and the local commissioner will of course work with our stakeholders during the testing phase, which we discussed on Report. The testing phase will be an important part of developing a practical and effective complaints service. We will be working with stakeholders during the testing phase with a view to ensuring that the needs of these groups of young people are properly met. Importantly, that will include looking at the effectiveness of the information and guidance that is provided.
As I explained during our last debate on this important subject, we fully intend to test the need for advocacy during the phased roll-out. That means looking at the experiences of service users, particularly young people, to enable the department to gauge demand and the costs associated with that demand. It is essential that we look at any issues around access to advocacy for vulnerable groups of children and parents. With that in mind, we have tabled an amendment to the Bill
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Baroness Walmsley: I am most grateful to the Minister for listening yet again on this matter. I tabled amendments in Committee and on Report and she has come back with a government amendment. I have a couple of questions. The Bill introduces the general duty on the commission to publish information about the procedures for complaint. Will that information be in a format suitable for children and young people to be able to understand? The majority of the complaints are brought by parents. Under this system, children will be able to make complaints themselves. We welcome the Minister's assurance that information about advocacy will be available for the children in the particularly vulnerable categories that I highlighted earlier in our discussions. However, I want to make sure that all the information will be in a format that is accessible to children.
Will the Minister also tell us when the duty to publish information will come into force? Will it come into force in the areas where the pilot schemes are being carried out at the beginning of those pilot schemes and then be rolled out across the country? Will she also say something about how the DCSF intends to monitor the implementation of the duty?
Although I am grateful to the Minister for giving us this particular concession on advocacy, I am still somewhat sceptical about the complaints system that the Government are proposing. I hope that it does not result, as some fear, in the floodgates opening with a whole lot of complaints. Although the commissioner can dismiss them if they are obviously vexatious, they could still take a great deal of time to weed through. Of course, it would waste a lot of schools' time in producing evidence, even at the very early stages of a complaint that was later dismissed. We are trying to avoid wasting teaching time and unwarranted bureaucracy.
It is important that, where pupils or parents have justified complaints, they are dealt with as quickly as possible at the school level, if that can be done. That is where the governors come in. The complaint can then go to the local authority if the school cannot settle it, although there may well be a need for a further stage so that children's rights can be adhered to. I look forward to seeing reports about how this system is working, to see if it is better than what we have at the moment.
I assure the Minister that the number of children who will require advocacy will be quite small. We have only 2,200 complaints going to this sort of level each year, of which only a very small number will fall into the particularly vulnerable categories that have been the subject of my concerns. I do not think that the cost will be very high and I hope the Minister can assure me that the money will be available.
Baroness Verma: My Lords, we thank the Minister for this amendment. It is appropriate that, where the commission publishes any information relating to the procedures for making up a complaint, it should ensure that it specifically includes information relating to a
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We are grateful to the Minister for listening to our concerns, expressed during debates on these clauses, and for tabling this amendment. Amendment 32 does not fully address our concerns, as the Minister is aware. Nevertheless, we recognise that debate and scrutiny in this House have brought significant improvements and for this we are very grateful.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, for her remarks. It has been helpful to have a very constructive discussion about the complaints process. We have made good progress through the passage of the Bill.
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked whether information would be made available in a format accessible to children and young people. Yes, it will be. Both the noble Baronesses, Lady Verma and Lady Walmsley, are well aware of the value of that and have advocated it in this House many times. I will write to the noble Baronesses about the detail of how the evaluation and the roll-out will work. In particular, I will need to get back to the noble Baroness about the commencement dates, because I do not have those in my notes. I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness that advocacy is extremely important. The ideal is that complaints and concerns are settled at a local level, in schools, before any issues can be escalated out of the school, either to the Secretary of State or through the new complaints system. Of course, getting a good complaints system working is a benefit to teachers, governors, parents, and children and young people, whose interests we aim to serve with this new scheme. I thank the noble Baronesses for their support and I hope we can see this amendment agreed.
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Clause 245 : Recording and reporting the use of force in schools: England
33: Clause 245, page 152, line 12, leave out "or over)" and insert "or over or provision made under subsection (4A) applies)"
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I apologise as noble Lords may be getting fed up of me popping up and down but this is my amendment. We have now reached the last group of amendments, which we debated late on Report. I am grateful to noble Lords opposite for our constructive discussions on this part of the Bill.
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We remain firmly of the view that, in the overwhelming majority of cases where there is a significant incident in which force is used on a child in a school, the parents should be informed. I think that all noble Lords around the House agree with that. I believe that is what parents would expect. However, on Report last week, I willingly accepted the argument that, in the very few cases where this requirement may result in significant harm to the child, this requirement to report to parents need not apply. We nevertheless think that in such cases the incident should not just stay within the school or college and that, where there is no parent to whom the incident can safely be reported because of concerns about how the parent might react, the obligation should instead be to report the incident to the local authority.
In deciding whether reporting an incident to a parent would be likely to result in significant harm to the pupil, and what is meant by "significant harm", the member of staff responsible under the procedure for reporting the incident should have regard to any guidance. Because a decision not to report an incident to parents may be difficult, we anticipate that the guidance will require that the member of staff responsible should discuss this with the head teacher before any decision is made. I hope that this would be a rare event in a school, but I think that staff would naturally want to discuss such a matter with the head teacher. Teacher unions, local government and children's rights representatives have been advised of this amendment and we will want to consult them on the development of the guidance.
I should have mentioned on an earlier group of amendments that we have laid minor and consequential amendments to Schedule 2. Amendments 43, 44 and 45 are minor, technical drafting amendments. I should have spoken to them when we discussed an earlier group of amendments. I have been passed a highlighted note telling me that it is very important that I mention this. I am a rule-governed person and therefore I have mentioned them.
As this is possibly the last speech that I will make on the Bill, I want to say a few words of thanks. Noble Lords have made very generous remarks today and, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Young, I say a very big thank you to them for the way in which we have worked together to take this Bill through your Lordships' House. I particularly thank the Opposition Front Benches and the Cross-Bench liaison Peers for the very constructive way in which they have worked with the Government throughout what I can safely say has been a long process. I think that it has taken nearly six months. I thank the Opposition Benches and the Cross-Bench liaison Peers for their insightful contributions to debates on the Floor of the House and for the advice that I have received in our meetings.
I pay tribute to all Back-Bench Peers who have contributed to these debates. I am grateful for the generosity they have shown in giving their time to attend meetings even during the recess. I also thank the Bill team and the officials at DCSF and BIS for their tireless efforts in drafting briefing and for supporting Ministers throughout the passage of a Bill that has at times been very technical and involved. As many noble Lords have remarked, it has not been the shortest or
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I do not know how often this happens, but I should also put on record my thanks to the opposition researchers in the offices of the Liberal Democrats and of the Official Opposition for their tremendous work in liaising with the Bill team. It has been a delight to work with them.
Finally, with the leave of the House, I should take a moment to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford. A little birdie told me that the noble Baroness may well be scaling back her responsibilities on the Front Bench. I thank her for her huge contribution to the work of this House. She has been a Member of this House since 1998 and a spokesperson for her party from 2000. She is an amazingly hard-working, committed and knowledgeable advocate in the fields of education, science and technology, and we will miss her wise words from the Front Bench. I have greatly enjoyed debating with her, not just while I have been at DCSF but also when I was at the DES. I very much look forward to debating with the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, who I understand might be stepping forward to fill the shoes of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. I am sure that noble Lords will join me in paying tribute to her many achievements and contributions to the House over the past 10 years.
I hope that, in speaking to this last group of amendments, I have not overstepped the mark by making these comments too soon. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, who is to respond, will not feel in any way limited in his remarks because I have chosen to dwell for so long on my thank yous. I hope that noble Lords will support these amendments.
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I very much welcome the amendment, which was tabled as a result of one of my urgings. It is a step in the right direction, although I would have preferred it if the Government had accepted the amendment on Report which said that the matter should be down to the head teacher's discretion. The Government have responded to the case study which I suggested whereby a child might have been damaged if the Bill had remained as it was.
It has to be said that it is now up to all the groups that will be consulted-including head teachers, teachers' unions and safeguarding groups-to step forward and fully engage with the consultation to make sure that we obtain the right guidance and to ensure that the term "significant force" is sensibly defined in it so that an unwarranted burden is not placed on schools. At the same time, children have the right for their parents to know that, where it is appropriate, they have been subjected to the use of force. I thank the Minister very much for that.
I thank the Minister, her colleagues and the Bill team for all their co-operation, their listening and their very hard work. I also add my thanks to my noble colleague, my noble friend Lady Sharp of Guildford, who could not have been a more helpful mentor to me when I came into this House as a very green member of her team. She has been absolutely wonderful and I shall miss her on the Front Bench, although I am
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Lord Hunt of Wirral: My Lords, we are, of course, dealing with Amendment 33. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, I thank the Government for responding to the points made both in Committee and on Report. I strongly agree with the National Union of Teachers that such an amendment is necessary, as it will allow the exercise of the teacher's professional judgment. A straight statutory requirement to report directly to parents in every instance would, we all feel, have had untoward consequences. For example, a teacher might be aware of a particularly difficult situation in which a parent was likely to be violent with a child if informed of an incident at school where physical restraint had been the necessary and proportionate response. An unqualified statutory duty would mean that teachers had by law to report to that parent. Therefore, we welcome the Government's amendment. I confess that it does not go quite as far as we would like, but it at least gives more professional responsibility to the teacher. As the Minister knows, we on these Benches strongly feel that we have to express trust in our teachers. The Government have accepted that principle here, so we are delighted to welcome the amendment.
I think that the noble Baroness gave the most generous tribute that I have ever heard from a Minister. It should not go unrecorded that we all very much appreciate her kind words. We pay tribute to her and to her noble friend for the way in which they have listened. I am not going down a mea culpa route, but I have to say that it is easy not to listen, whereas it is much more difficult not only to listen but to respond positively and constructively. That requires a whole range of abilities, which the noble Baroness has exhibited throughout the passage of the Bill.
The Bill is an enormous piece of legislation, which many of us felt probably would not get through. But we have done it. As the noble Lord the Minister said earlier, it is a much improved Bill that we send to the other place. That is also a tribute to the team that has looked after the Bill. It is always difficult when two departments come together to maintain the impetus behind a Bill. Although we have had our criticisms, the Bill team has always responded. Many of us have had lots of meetings-indeed, we have been full of meetings in and around the Chamber-but it has been a pleasure for my noble friends and me to work with the noble Baroness the Minister.
We have also had some tremendous contributions from other noble Lords. I single out my noble friends Lord Elton, Lady Perry, Lord Eccles, Lord Lucas and Lord Baker. Great contributions have been made from the Cross Benches, too. Perhaps I might just add that I am never quite sure of the appropriateness of the word "liaison". Before the Minister uses that word again, perhaps she could look up the definition in the Oxford English Dictionary, because-no, I will not go down that road.
It has been a pleasure to work with noble Lords, particularly my noble friends Lady Verma and Lord De Mauley, who have provided great depth and quality
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