Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
Lord Moonie
10 MARCH 2009
Q40 Chairman: Could I just press
you on the first paragraph, "Other people who could do it.
Exactly. And the other thing is, and this is what a lot of us
do now, one person acts as agent and the one who is not will actually
put down the Question ... ."?
Lord Moonie: (After a pause) I think
I was trying to describe what generally happened, that there were
people who were acting as agent and people who were not, and it
was the people who were not who would be the ones who would actually
have to put down the amendments on their behalf.
Q41 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Who is
the agent? Are you the agent?
Lord Moonie: In this sort of situation,
I would be the agent and I would be identifying the people who
they would be able to contact, so I would be the agent of the
company.
Q42 Lord Irvine of Lairg: You would
be the employee of the company and would be informing them, the
company, whom they could approach?
Lord Moonie: Yes, that is certainly what
I meant to say. The other thing is, I have served on—I would
not say "countless Bills" because that is obviously
nonsense—many, many Bills, both in Opposition and in Government,
and one is well used to the volume, particularly on a controversial
Bill, of amendments which are suggested and the number of people
who approach us and the number of people who put down amendments.
So it is quite commonplace for a great deal of outside interest
in a Bill to be present, and for a great deal of people to be
trying to get amendments put down. I would generally expect, certainly
when in Opposition, to be approached either by an outside agent
or possibly by colleagues who had a particular interest in it,
but you would expect that. You would find there is a huge amount
of interest in certain Bills. What is important is to separate
your own behaviour from the behaviour of anyone else without paying
any attention to it.
Q43 Lord Irvine of Lairg: I think
what you are trying to say to us is that you, if you became a
paid consultant of this supposed outfit, would have given them
information as to whom to approach and not done the approaching
yourself?
Lord Moonie: That is not what I intended
no. Sorry, that is what I intended. I would not have attempted
to approach them myself, no.
Q44 Lord Irvine of Lairg: If we go
to page 11 about a third of the way in, you say, "I'm not
trying to talk myself out of a job, but I think it's best to be
completely upfront with people and be honest with the people you're
trying to deal with. I believe there are still people in here
who will cut corners, but it's daft, frankly. One, it'll ruin
their reputation, so they shouldn't be doing it. Two, as far as
the company's concerned, if you're found out to have done anything
like that, you're dead. Nobody will work with you." I think
what you were saying there is to insist that you have to work
within the rules.
Lord Moonie: That is correct.
Q45 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Then if
we go to about two-thirds in, the male under-cover reporter says,
"Yes, I can see that. In effect, they are the people who
you could then represent to and they are the people that, yeah."
You reply, "You get somebody to put down the amendments and
other[s] will speak to it and provide briefing notes, all the
standard ..." The "you" you are referring to is
the company seeking to employ you?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q46 Lord Irvine of Lairg: I.e., not
you, Lord Moonie.
Lord Moonie: Not me, no. Them.
Q47 Lord Irvine of Lairg: You insisted
towards the bottom of the page, that you have never personally
done any such thing, "But it's something that you can easily
find out just to make sure. From your point of view I wouldn't
want you to do anything that ..." and then after an interruption,
"... involved doing something even slightly improper."
So you were saying, "Well, then, you have to stay within
the rules"?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q48 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Then if
we go to page 12, you say towards the top of the page, that you
have to speak to colleagues to find out what is legitimate and
what is not.
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q49 Lord Irvine of Lairg: You say
if we go over to page 13, the same in relation to ***, Lord ***.
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q50 Lord Irvine of Lairg: You describe
him as a bit of an authority on what is legitimate and what is
not. Correct?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q51 Lord Irvine of Lairg: What about
the poor old Registrar? Had you lost sight of him here?
Lord Moonie: I was talking about what
I would do in the first instance. No, I had not lost sight of
the Registrar but I assumed the Registrar was a busy man and I
meet colleagues all the time and can find out informally and formally
what is happening. Had that not been made clear I would have been
able to supplement that by speaking to the Registrar, whom I have
spoken to on several occasions and who has been most helpful.
In fact I spoke to Jack Cunningham, whose advice to me amongst
other things was to contact the Registrar and not *** who was
not there at the time. I did not get a chance to do that because
the whole thing blew up shortly thereafter.
Lord Irvine of Lairg: Okay. Could we go to page
13?
Q52 Chairman: Can I go back to page
12, if I may? If you look down, you say, "Well, the rules
are pretty unclear. It's one of these unfortunate things that
I suspect the rules are being made as they go along ...",
could you explain what you meant by that please?
Lord Moonie: I think that is the non-legal
person's view of the way in which laws are amended through usage
and practice. For example, the Code itself, when you actually
look at it is not very specific, it does not give a huge list
of dos and don'ts, it speaks in general terms. The dos and don'ts
are then outlined by speaking to the Registrar. That really is
what I meant by that. The truth is, I spoke to colleagues who
know what is going on. They are not tablets of stone, they are
slightly fluid in the sense we do develop as events happen which
we had not taken into account before. That is really all I meant
by that. It was a bit of a throw-away line really. It was not
intended to have any huge significance.
Q53 Lord Irvine of Lairg: But it
is also true to say that all written codes require interpretation
and that can be quite difficult?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q54 Lord Dholakia: Lord Moonie, you
said earlier on when Lord Irvine was asking you about how you
were not very clear about the Code in relation to whether it applied
to the House or the executive, would that not have been a valid
time to consider speaking to the Registrar to clarify that particular
position?
Lord Moonie: I think I was intending
at some stage to speak to the Registrar if I was in any doubt.
I do not voice that because it was not the kind of forum in which
you would do that. The need to say it did not arise, so I did
not say it.
Lord Dholakia: Thank you.
Q55 Lord Irvine of Lairg: But the
only point of distinction between members and a Minister, if you
like, the executive, is whether it would be permissible to approach
a Minister on behalf of a paying client, or whether it would be
permissible to approach a member on behalf of a paying client.
Maybe on reflection you can see there is no difference?
Lord Moonie: No, in that sense there
is not, but in that case what happens when you are dealing with
an executive agency?
Q56 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Well, an
executive agency—we must not get into a debate about this—presumably
does not have any opportunity to determine the course of legislation.
However, that may be wrong so maybe we must wait for the evolution—
Lord Moonie: That only serves to illustrate
the position that there are grey areas where you wonder whether
the Code operates or not.
Q57 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Yes, anyway,
on page 13 you mention a modest figure of £5,000 to £10,000
for a fairly simple consultancy?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q58 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Basically
an information-giving advisory consultancy?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q59 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Then if
you jump forward in the transcript to page 17, you emphasise,
two-thirds of the way down the page of the Hansard transcript,
and this is you speaking, "On the retail thing, I'll want
to just find out exactly how much work. I'm quite sure work can
be done. What I'm not certain of is exactly how we do it to ensure
that we stay within the letter of what's there, the regulations.
From your point of view, you want to be sure that that's done."
So you were making the point there, which you have made already,
that you have to keep within the rules?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
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