Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
Lord Moonie
10 MARCH 2009
Q100 Chairman: But at the top of
page 25, the second conversation, you say, "What, to assist
somebody in finding a way of getting an amendment put down? Yes,
of course it's within the rules."
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q101 Chairman: What did you mean
by that?
Lord Moonie: Exactly what we have talked
about during the first informal conversation, that as an adviser
you can explain to people who they ought to contact, how they
ought to contact them, you can even draft letters for them, if
they say they do not know how to do that. You advise them on how
to make their contacts. That is what I mean by assisting them,
finding a way of putting the amendment. You find out for them
the names of the people and then you get them to contact them.
In the first conversation I say it is really something you would
expect an intern to do rather than a consultant. I say therefore,
"I would have asked them to get in touch with the Opposition,
their spokespeople to see if they had common ground with them,
with other people like Land Holdings, who are interested in amending
legislation, to see if they have common ground with them, and
to find a way forward for them."
Q102 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Going
back to the passage the Chairman drew your attention to, the top
of page 25, the man says, "Yep. Now, your view is that that
is or is not within the rules?" You reply, "What, to
assist somebody in finding a way of getting an amendment put down?
Yes, of course it's within the rules. Man: Right. On a paid basis.
LM: To advise people on how to do it. Yes." So are you coming
again to the distinction between your lobbying yourself and your
telling them whom they can lobby?
Lord Moonie: Yes. That is right.
Q103 Lord Irvine of Lairg: If you
go further down to the passage you have just referred to, "I
would have asked them to get in touch with the Opposition, their
spokespeople to see if they had common ground with them, with
other people like Land Holdings, who are interested in amending
legislation ...". So you would point them to point to people
who might be sympathetic with whom they could make common cause
on behalf of their client. Is that right?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q104 Lord Irvine of Lairg: I am minded
to pass over, Chairman, to page 28 of 29, where you say that you
would not have done anything yourself without speaking to the
Registrar and finding out exactly what was and what was not permissible.
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q105 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Was that
your position throughout or had it become your position by the
time you were speaking to Gillard?
Lord Moonie: I had spoken to Jack Cunningham,
as I said, and I realised if I wanted to take it any further I
would, one, have to check the contract and, two, have to check
with the Registrar. So, yes, by that time I realised I would have
to speak to the Registrar if I wanted to do anything further.
Q106 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Yes. Could
we go to page 12 of the Sunday Times transcript? The only
reason I am doing that—because we agree with you that it
is preferable to use the Hansard transcript—is because there
there is recorded what is not a transcript of a conversation,
because no recording was made, but what it is is Calvert's recollection
of this particular conversation. Are you with me?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q107 Lord Irvine of Lairg: I am going
to read it to you, if you will forgive me. "I rang Lord Moonie
to tell him that Mr Jiang, the fictional Chinese businessman,
would be delighted to employ him and to ask whether he had had
the chance to talk to his colleague *** as he suggested in the
first meeting. Moonie said he hadn't talked to *** but he had
talked to other colleagues and it seemed it would be ok to work
for us. I reminded him that we wanted him to work on the amendment
to the Business Rate Supplement Bill. He said that he would identify
and contact members of both houses who might help push the amendment
through. I asked him if he knew John Healey, the local government
minister in charge of the bill, and he said he did. He agreed
that he would contact Healey on our behalf. When I asked him about
his fee, he said he would think about it and come back to me."
Pausing there, that of course is Calvert's alleged recollection,
it is not a transcript of a tape recording. I can understand,
Lord Moonie, consistent with everything you have said in the Hansard
transcript, which is the main conversation, that you would identify
for them to approach members of both Houses who might be willing
to support the amendment in which they were interested. Did you
or did you not agree that you would yourself contact such members
on their behalf?
Lord Moonie: I did not.
Q108 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Or agree
to contact John Healey on their behalf?
Lord Moonie: I certainly did not.
Q109 Lord Irvine of Lairg: In your
letter to the Registrar of 8 February, and I am looking at it
now. Do you have it?
Lord Moonie: I recall it. I should have
it somewhere here. Yes, I have it.
Q110 Lord Irvine of Lairg: You say,
your recollection of the conversation with Calvert was that it
was not on the 20th as he says but on the morning of 21st, before
you emailed him.
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q111 Lord Irvine of Lairg: In that
email I think you said that you must of course pay due heed to
the rules?
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q112 Lord Irvine of Lairg: "For
your sake as much as mine".
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q113 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Your recollection
of the occasion of the call from Calvert is because you were "...
standing in a shop in Knightsbridge at the time" and you
say you made a perfunctory response to his enquiries.
Lord Moonie: Yes, I did.
Q114 Lord Irvine of Lairg: But you
are quite clear that you did not say that you would write to Mr
Healey on their behalf.
Lord Moonie: I did not.
Q115 Lord Irvine of Lairg: And you
have no doubt about that?
Lord Moonie: Absolutely none.
Q116 Lord Irvine of Lairg: When you
said that you would approach colleagues, was that solely in order
to get their views on what was permissible under the rules?
Lord Moonie: That is right.
Q117 Lord Irvine of Lairg: Not to
lobby them to move amendments?
Lord Moonie: No.
Q118 Lord Irvine of Lairg: If we
go back to the Sunday Times transcript, page 12, the lady
under-cover journalist apparently rings you, and I am looking
at page 12 of the Sunday Times transcript, where she tried
to firm up you had agreed to speak to John Healey.
Lord Moonie: Yes.
Q119 Lord Irvine of Lairg: You replied,
if we go to the top of page 13, "No, I don't think so."
Lord Moonie: That is correct.
Chairman: Any further questions?
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