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On the other hand, it sometimes seems to be implied that schools used to be wholly exempt from licensing law and that school concerts were generally made licensable by the Licensing Act. Neither is the case. If a school hall is used for a rock concert, this remains licensable, and I think that reasonable people would consider that it should be. Some schools, such as music schools, sometimes put on commercial-type events. However, some events at schools, such as fund-raising events held by parent-teacher associations, or events held by external bodies, may be licensable. In many cases, alcohol is sold-for example, a glass of wine at the interval-so that these events would not benefit directly from either of the proposed exemptions or the existing fee exemption. Nevertheless, I hope your Lordships will agree that the sale of alcohol at schools requires regulation.
In the same way, such performances of live music at hospitals are very unlikely to be licensable. Fund-raising events may well involve sales of alcohol and therefore require a licence. But the Government remain prepared to look again at the needs of schools and hospitals. This would not be limited to regulated entertainment. The exemption of hospitals from the provisions of the Licensing Act in respect of late night refreshment, for example, deserves consideration.
The Bill seeks to reintroduce a variant of the old exemption for one or two musicians performing in a premises licensed for alcohol-the "two in a bar" exemption. The old exemption was not universally popular with musicians and was not widely used. A limit on the number of performers discriminates against musicians who perform in larger bands. It does not discriminate against the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, if he is on his own with his trumpet, but representations have been made by larger groups of musicians. The new condition that the music must be non-amplified or "minimally amplified" means that many of these events are likely to be already exempt under the incidental live music exemption. If we then consider that an event that is "minimally amplified" and has two or fewer musicians is unlikely to be performed before a substantial audience, it is hard to see that many additional events would benefit from this exemption.
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I think your Lordships will understand from what I have said that while we have no intention of deviating from our normal stance of neutrality towards Private Members' Bills, we have strong reservations about this Bill. We believe that a more appropriate measure is the legislative reform order, on which the Government are consulting. On the legislative timetable, the LRO, unlike a Private Member's Bill, can be carried over from one Parliament to another, so the coming of the general election would not mean that the issue would die and have to be taken up again from scratch by any new Administration in a new Parliament.
I hope that I have managed to answer the main points made in the debate. I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in it and I am sure that we shall continue our discussion in due course.
2.05 pm
Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in today's debate. Although the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, did not blow his trumpet today, he was extremely eloquent and his support is, as ever, extremely welcome. He explained the importance of live music and its impact on the health of our creative industries extremely well. We recognise his consistent support over the years for live music. I thought that he comprehensively demolished the LGA's briefing along the way. He cited something else that should have given us heart but which, in the light of the Minister's reply, perhaps did not. I cited a Written Answer to me from the noble Lord, Lord Davies; he cited Mr Sutcliffe as being prepared to compromise. I must admit that if that is compromise, I am probably a Dutchman, from what I heard the Minister say.
The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, who himself has been an extraordinarily able supporter of live music, was very eloquent-particularly about its impact on the pub trade and about the history, how we were assured about the Act, especially Section 177, which, it turns out, is not a partial exemption at all but only a potential way to save costs under a very complex set of conditions that have never been invoked. We were sold a pup at the time.
The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, made it absolutely clear that the proponents and supporters of the Bill do not disregard the human rights of residents; in fact we are extremely mindful of them. Indeed, local residents would keep all their rights of review of licences. If premises are seeking to shelter under an exemption, if there is noise or nuisance, local residents are entitled under my Bill to call for a review. I am sorry that the Minister and the LGA may well be in collusion to try to paint it as a way of steamrollering local residents, but that is absolutely not the case.
I have no doubt that we will debate at length the details of the LRO consultation and whether it deals adequately with entertainment facilities. As I read it, the issue of putting a piano in a public place, which occurred last summer, is not cured by the Government's proposals. We shall see.
I particularly value the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising. Brief though it may have been, it was extremely welcome. I welcome the support of the Opposition Front Bench; we appreciate it.
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If the Minister was being neutral, I would hate to see him in hostile form. I thought that he made an extremely poor fist of neutrality, especially when he has an LRO out that accepts the case that we make in principle. He may not accept the details, but it was a pretty grudging way to accept that the purposes of the Bill are entirely laudable and grounded in the facts. If one burrows into Hansard, one will find that, although it is very grudging, he agrees entirely with what I said about the figures in the surveys and so on.
The question is: does the Minister's LRO do more for live music than our Bill? He tried to extol the virtues of the temporary event notice. He tried to claim that schools and hospitals were in absolutely fine shape. I am very grateful to my friends in the Box, but the fact is that there is no case law. Events that are open to friends count as public if they are open to anyone. If I go to a school performance and I bring along my next-door neighbour, it becomes a public event. That is a complete anomaly. The Government are not correct in what they said about that.
We can argue the toss about 100 or 200; I am perfectly flexible. There is no direct correlation between numbers of musicians and noise. We believe that 200 is a proportionate capacity that would serve a need. We do not believe that local residents would be put at risk. We believe that there is an element in local authorities that wants to control everything under its aegis. We do not think that that is healthy for the growth and flourishing of live music.
The Government have already agreed that the minor variations process is not adequate; they would not be bringing forward this LRO if they thought that it was. Yet the Minister devoted several minutes to extolling the virtues of the minor variations process. I recognise that the Delegated Powers Committee inserted that extra wording, but the Government could have resisted. It is not plausible for them to claim that the minor variations procedure is not very good because the Delegated Powers Committee made it so. The fact is that the minor variations procedure is bureaucratic for precisely that reason, whatever the Delegated Powers Committee situation. For all the issuing of leaflets-I am sure that it is highly laudable for there to be lots of leaflets about temporary event notices, incidental music and minor variations-they will not cure a poor process.
I hope that the Government recognise that we are all working towards a better process for the exemption of small live music events. Nobody is saying that the Licensing Act has killed live music-that statement would be disproportionate-but we are saying that
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The sale of alcohol in schools is deliberately not covered by the Bill. We recognise that that would be a step too far. It could turn schools and hospitals into venues if we suddenly started allowing the sale of alcohol.
There are flaws in the statistical evidence. I believe that there is currently an inquiry within the DCMS about the statistical basis on which it has been working. The Government have already admitted that they do not know how many premises among those in the 11 per cent increase between 2007 and 2009 that the Minister mentioned would not have required a licence under the old regime, including schools, hospitals, private charity functions and so on. The Government may quote some of these statistics, but the statistics are not very robust.
As his final commendation for the LRO, the Minister mentioned that he could carry it over whereas I could not carry over my Private Member's Bill. I am very happy to make another Second Reading speech after the general election, and I hope that whoever is in power will be more sympathetic to my Bill than the current government Front Bench. As time goes on, it will become clearer and clearer in certain areas that this is an issue, particularly because of the interest of publicans, and politicians, who often ply their trade in pubs during general elections, will realise that this is an electoral issue. This is something that local people want and, ultimately, they will not be denied.
I have not properly acknowledged UK Music in this debate. Mr Feargal Sharkey has been a tower of strength. There are others, such as the National Campaign for the Arts, which has now given us its support; trade unions; the original Live Music Forum, which is run by Phil Little; and growing numbers of organisations, such as Listen Up and thePublican. This is a growing movement. I believe that it is irresistible and that the Government are not going far enough. The Bill represents that mood much better and more closely than the Government's legislation. I want it to proceed in the next few months before the general election, and I very much hope that the Government will have second thoughts and adopt it.
Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
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