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Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
McCluskey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mandelson, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Meacher, B.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Moonie, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Murphy, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Ouseley, L.
Pannick, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prosser, B.
Puttnam, L.
Quin, B.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees of Ludlow, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Soley, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern of Brentford, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Thornton, B.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnbull, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
West of Spithead, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.
Aberdare, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
25 Jan 2010 : Column 1245
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Bagri, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Ballyedmond, L.
Bates, L.
Bell, L.
Bew, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bowness, L.
Boyce, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnett, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Carrington, L.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chichester, Bp.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dear, L.
Deech, B.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
Durham, Bp.
Eccles, V.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Exeter, Bp.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Fellowes, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freud, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodlad, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hastings of Scarisbrick, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Hooper, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hutton, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kalms, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kingsdown, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Liverpool, Bp.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
London, Bp.
Lucas, L.
Luce, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Marlesford, L.
Martin of Springburn, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Mawson, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Morrow, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Loan, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Paisley of St George's, B.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Patten of Barnes, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Quinton, L.
Ramsbotham, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
25 Jan 2010 : Column 1246
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheikh, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Tombs, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Walker of Aldringham, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warsi, B.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winchester, Bp.
York, Abp.
6.31 pm
The Lord Speaker: I inform the House that if Amendment 100 is agreed, I cannot call Amendment 100A because of pre-emption.
Baroness O'Cathain: I wish to test the opinion of the House.
6.32 pm
Contents 177; Not-Contents 172.
Aberdare, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Ballyedmond, L.
Bates, L.
Bew, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bowness, L.
Boyce, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnett, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chichester, Bp.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dear, L.
Deech, B.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
D'Souza, B.
Durham, Bp.
Eccles, V.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Exeter, Bp.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Fellowes, L.
25 Jan 2010 : Column 1247
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freud, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodlad, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hastings of Scarisbrick, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Hooper, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hutton, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones, L.
Kalms, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kingsdown, L.
Kirkham, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Liverpool, Bp.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
London, Bp.
Lucas, L.
Luce, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Marlesford, L.
Martin of Springburn, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Mawson, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Morrow, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
O'Cathain, B. [Teller]
O'Loan, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Paisley of St George's, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Patten of Barnes, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheikh, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Tombs, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warsi, B.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winchester, Bp.
York, Abp.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Adonis, L.
Alli, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L. [Teller]
Berkeley, L.
Best, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blood, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Bradley, L.
25 Jan 2010 : Column 1248
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Campbell of Loughborough, B.
Campbell of Surbiton, B.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Crisp, L.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dholakia, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Garden of Frognal, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harries of Pentregarth, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskins, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Layard, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
McCluskey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Meacher, B.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Moonie, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Murphy, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Ouseley, L.
Pannick, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prosser, B.
Puttnam, L.
Quin, B.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees of Ludlow, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Soley, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern of Brentford, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Thornton, B.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnbull, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
West of Spithead, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
25 Jan 2010 : Column 1249
6.45 pm
Amendment 101 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, in moving Amendment 101ZA, I shall also speak to the other amendments in the group.
Baroness Thornton: Would noble Lords please leave the Chamber quietly?
Baroness Turner of Camden: Amendment 101ZA seeks to make a relatively minor amendment to the part of the Bill that lays down requirements relating to religion or belief. Paragraph 3(a) uses the words,
I want it to say, "it is a genuine occupational requirement". I do not suppose that anyone can really disagree with that, although we shall have to wait and see.
The next amendment in the group relates to a rather more complicated issue. The intention behind it is to limit the ability of an employer with a religious ethos to require that an employee should be an adherent of a particular religion, normally the employer's own. The Bill provides for certain exceptions to be permissible in limited circumstances, but I do not see why an exception of any kind should be permitted when the employer in question provides a public service. This may increasingly come to be the case, as there seem to be arrangements in hand for charitable and religious organisations to take on responsibility for services that are normally provided by public-mainly welfare-services. Such services would normally have equal opportunities policies for their employees. There is no reason why a religious or charitable organisation that undertakes work in the public arena that is funded by the taxpayer should be able to insist that the employees who carry out the work should be of a particular religion. That is surely unfair and against the general ethos of the Bill.
Amendment 101C, my final amendment in the group, would insert after line 31 on the same page of the Bill:
"The exception under paragraph 3 shall not be used to justify discrimination on any other protected ground".
That is important, because we are talking here only about religion and belief and we do not want discrimination against characteristics that are already protected quite specifically in the Bill-sexual orientation, disability and so on-to be possible somehow or other in this provision. That needs to be taken account of.
I do not know why Amendment 125A, in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, has been included in this group of amendments. I do not know what it intends, but it appears to relate to sexual orientation, which is one of the protected characteristics in the Bill. It is not appropriate for this group of amendments, but I shall listen with interest to what the noble and learned Lord has to say in support of it. On the face of it, I do not agree with it.
25 Jan 2010 : Column 1250
The noble Lord, Lord Lester, has tabled a very similar amendment to mine. Again, I wait with interest to hear what he has to tell us, but my view is quite simple: a religious organisation that gives a public service does not have the right to insist that its employees should be of that religion. It is a very simple point and I beg to move.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I shall speak to this group of amendments as a whole. I cannot resist making the observation that, in the Division, the Lords Spiritual managed to vote as turkeys for Christmas-if noble Lords will forgive me for saying so-by removing the new and magnanimous protection that they were given. Proportionality was taken out of the Bill, probably encouraging the European Commission to suggest that our statutory powers will infringe its own and lead to further trouble. With this group, I will try to get clarification that the Bill will comply with EU law.
Amendment 101ZA, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, will insert "a genuine" into the phrase,
in paragraph 3 of Schedule 9. Can the Minister confirm that the amendment is not necessary because occupational requirement is already interpreted to mean a genuine occupational requirement when read in light of Article 4.1 of the directive? If that is confirmed, the need to include "genuine" becomes, as lawyers say, otiose.
Amendment 101A seeks to insert the requirement that a public authority cannot apply the requirements exemption relating to employment for the purposes of religion or belief. Amendment 101B-my amendment-seeks to do the same thing. Both amendments seek to give effect to the exemption in Article 4.2 of the framework directive and consolidate Regulation 7(3) of the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003.
Amendment 101C, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, would write into the Bill what I think is the view of the European Commission:
"The exception under paragraph 3 shall not be used to justify discrimination on any other protected grounds".
Paragraph 3, as part of Schedule 9, deals with other requirements relating to religion or belief. The problem that the Commission may have raised is that the wording of the old regulations-and it seems this part of the Bill-contradicts the provision under Article 4.2 of the directive, which specifically says that permitted differences of treatment based on religion,
Amendment 101C seeks to correct that. It is important because, as the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, said, some religious organisations have made it clear that they would seek to use this provision relating ostensibly to religion or belief to discriminate against employees on the basis of their private conduct-conduct relating to their sexual orientation or marital status. That is clearly outside the terms of Article 4.2 of the directive. We seek confirmation that that is so.
Furthermore, the judgment of Mr Justice Richards, as he was in the Amicus case, makes it clear that lawful, private sexual conduct consisting of gay or lesbian sex is so closely bound up with sexual orientation
25 Jan 2010 : Column 1251
Amendment 125B is in my name but I have decided that there is no need to add to the complexity by pursuing it. Finally, Amendment 125A, in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, would remove the exemption for sexual orientation in the provision of services by a public authority. As I understand it, his amendment would allow public authorities that provide services to discriminate against service users based on their sexuality. There are already a number of narrow exemptions for religious service providers but where they are publicly funded they should not be able to discriminate against those to whom they provide their public services. I do not want to go into the unanimous Court of Appeal judgment in the Ladele case-Heaven forbid that I should-where the registrar providing a public service refused to preside at a civil partnership registration, except to say that the judgment of Lord Neuberger, Master of the Rolls, and his two colleagues was, in my respectful judgment, inconsistent with Amendment 125A. We would therefore not support the amendment. I hope that that is clearer than mud.
The Archbishop of York: The noble Lord said that the Lords Spiritual were like turkeys voting for Christmas. Actually, the Government said that they wanted to keep the status quo. We voted for the status quo and not for something quite different. In the case that has been recycled endlessly here, the claimants challenged what was thought to be a breach of Regulation 7(2) under the directive, but Lord Justice Richards decided that it was not. We have voted not for Christmas but for the tranquillity and magnanimity that we found in the regulations that were passed a long time ago.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern: I will allow the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, out of her difficulty by explaining what my amendment is about. I have no responsibility for the grouping but I did not object, as I am delighted to be associated with her. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, joins in the fray a little later. My amendment has only a marginal connection with that of the noble Baroness.
The problem is with what has happened. The Bill gives an opportunity of looking at the field that was taken up before by primary and secondary legislation. With secondary legislation there is of course no possibility of amendment except an out-and-out rejection. This is the first opportunity to look at these two matters together. This amendment was affected by the House of Commons procedures. It never got a full discussion as the click-if that is the right word-of the guillotine came down when the Member was moving it. The other place never really got to any discussion.
Secondly, it is right that we should consider this amendment now. I repeat the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alli, on his first amendment this evening: the words used in the Bill-and hitherto in the statute-are "sexual orientation". The last time I spoke on this subject I mentioned that, when the Commission originally made this proposal for the equal treatment directive, it
25 Jan 2010 : Column 1252
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