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3 Feb 2010 : Column 238
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with the amendment, but also a query about it. It has been very good news to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, that some of the material for children that has gone online has proved a great success. I should like to see more children's programming in general and therefore am concerned that this might be a slight restriction if it is put in the Bill. I hope that I am wrong in my interpretation, but it is something to bear in mind, because the more that Channel 4 can do in this direction, the happier we would all be.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, echoes what came into my mind as the amendment was put. Perhaps it would be helpful to have an explanation-I am sure that there are cogent reasons-why the age range of 10 to 15 has been chosen.
Lord Davies of Oldham: The noble Baroness will have a chance to answer that. It is a difficulty that the Government also have. We are not against the broad thrust of the amendment. There is clear agreement about the problem that has been identified and which C4C has a duty to address. Pre-school and young children are, as Ofcom's review of public service broadcasting noted, broadly well served. Those of us who are grandparents can testify to that. Grandchildren invite grandparents to watch television with them. The trouble is, in my experience, that once they get beyond the age of 10, they do not want grandparents watching with them, and therefore we know a great deal less about those children's programmes, such as they are, than about CBeebies and others.
Although there is broad agreement about the problem, there are different views about how we solve the issue of definition. Ofcom's review referred to children of primary school age and above, whereas its 2007 research report The Future of Children's Television Programminglooked at nine to 12 year-olds. We are all wrestling with definitions. We know the broad target group that we want to see programmes provided for, but the problem with legislation is that excessive provision could be restrictive. C4C's report Next on 4, published in March 2008, proposed a new public service role for the corporation in relation to children's content, targeting 10 to 15 year-olds. The Digital Britain White Paper identified as a priority the plurality of public service content for children, especially the over-10s. We are all thinking very much along the same lines in seeking to address the problem. While 10 to 15 is broadly the age range that the Government have in mind, we would not want to be too prescriptive in defining older children. Focusing C4C's remit on 10 to 15 year-olds could limit its flexibility to provide content for children outside this age range or content for more narrowly targeted age groups. Within its duty to provide content for older children, we would also want C4C to refocus its output if developments in the wider provision of content for children were to make this appropriate.
I say to the noble Baroness that we all share her anxiety about programmes for children. We have debated these issues often in the House over recent years and we know that children in the junior age groups are well provided for. However, we are genuinely anxious about
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Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: I will explain why I added the 10 to 15 age category: the remit refers specifically to older children. That is the group Channel 4 is being asked to cater for. Obviously, 10 to 15 is a problematic age group. I hope that my two nephews and one godson who are about to be 15 do not read this debate, because they would be extremely upset to be grouped with 10 year-olds. We feel that the Government are right to add the category of older children, which is a natural fit with the channel. We would prefer the details that have been suggested, but I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
6.15 pm
232B: Clause 21, page 23, leave out lines 46 to 48 and insert-
"( ) content that is broadcast over electronic communications networks;"
Lord Howard of Rising: My Lords, the amendment returns to an issue that was raised in the early days of our debates on the Bill: the amount by which the Bill appears to be extending regulation into new areas of broadcasting. If this paragraph is removed, Channel 4 will be limited to investing in television programmes, digital television channels and on-demand services. That is to say, internet-based services would not be part of Channel 4's duties, except in so far as to ensure that their content was available online through catch-up services.
The amendment highlights the fact that the clause would require Channel 4 to invest in services provided by the internet where there is a person who exercises editorial control. The most obvious type of internet service where someone exercises editorial control is a newspaper website. Is it the wish or the intention that Channel 4 should invest in these, because that is what this definition would appear to allow for? It is questionable whether some of the projects that Channel 4 currently invests in through its 4iP project are appropriate or relevant for a broadcaster. Recent projects include a Facebook application to show users how their lifestyle will change the way they look over time, and an iPhone application that helps people to exercise more. Both projects could be described as having a public service role, but are they the sort of things that Channel 4 should be investing in? I should be interested to hear the Minister's views on these types of investments and whether he thinks that the current drafting of the Bill allows Channel 4 to go beyond the limits of what most of the public would consider reasonable for a public service broadcaster. I beg to move.
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Lord Puttnam: I declare my interest as deputy chairman of Channel 4. I hope to help the noble Lord, Lord Howard, get his head around the challenges to Channel 4. First, no public funds come into Channel 4; it exists entirely within the commercial marketplace, which presents its own challenges. More important than that is what has happened with the explosion of digital opportunities that the channel is attempting to take advantage of. We are discovering that by putting programming together with the opportunities that that programming allows online we are getting a dramatically increased impact in terms of our public service obligations. That is so particularly in the area of health. The noble Lord mentioned the iPhone application linked to exercise.
We are beginning to understand dozens of things about the way in which behaviours can be influenced by a programme. A programme can generate the initial interest but behaviours, ironically, are generated more by the online opportunity that a programme creates. We think we may have a tool which is of enormous public service interest and public service benefit. It is very early days and we are very much in the experimental phase, but I sincerely believe that some of the experimental work being done, by 4iP in particular, may end up being of enormous national importance and of real interest in helping us to navigate through some of the social problems that we, as a nation, are trying to address.
Lord Davies of Oldham: The Government hope that the noble Lord, Lord Howard, will withdraw his amendment when he has probed further on this issue, although I think we have covered these issues under previous amendments.
In the Digital Britain White Paper, we made it clear that C4C's current public service remit, limited as it is to the Channel 4 television service, is now too television-centric for the role that C4C should play in Britain's digital media. We consider it has a role to play subject to the obligations which it enjoys as regards its television production. The Government believe that C4C has a vital role to play in offering public service competition to the BBC. I want to emphasise that fact, as my noble friend Lord Puttnam re-emphasised that Channel 4 does not receive public money and so it is in a proper position to compete with the BBC, which receives the licence fee.
As the wider content market evolves, with changing technology and audience expectations, C4C needs to exploit new media to maximise its public service contribution. My noble friend Lord Puttnam gave an illustration of that. If C4C does not offer content to viewers in the formats and on the platforms that best suit them, its ability to contribute to the overall public service offering will inevitably diminish and the organisation itself will be increasingly marginalised. C4C has the right to expect the opportunity to participate in the new digital age.
It has been suggested that encouraging C4C to engage in new media operations will inhibit the development of commercial alternatives. Surely, those are displaced. First, C4C will be in the marketplace like the other competitors and will have to compete on an equal footing with them, with the fully commercial alternatives. Secondly, as my noble friend Lord Puttnam
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The amendment would not prevent C4C providing online or other new media content under its existing powers. However, it would affect C4C's new media activities by exempting it from the public service focus provided by the clause as drafted. That would diminish the public value of C4C's new media initiatives. I am quite sure that the public would regard it as such. I hope the noble Lord will appreciate that no advantages are being given to C4C. It does not receive public funds; it is in the marketplace like others; but it would be governed by its remit. That ought to commend it to all parts of the House and I hope it commends it to the noble Lord, Lord Howard.
Lord Howard of Rising: I thank the Minister for his remarks and the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam for his pertinent comments. It is of great benefit to the House to hear what he has said about Channel 4. I still think that there should be some form of limit on the activities of Channel 4. An example of limits being overstepped is the BBC and "Planet Earth". Although I understand the point of an activity such as the education programme, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, during an earlier debate, nevertheless, I think there should be some form of brake on how far the activities on the internet are extended. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Clause 21, as amended, agreed.
232C: After Clause 21, insert the following new Clause-
"Monitoring and enforcing C4C's media content duties
After section 198A of the Communications Act 2003 insert-
"Monitoring and enforcing C4C's media content duties
(1) C4C must report on the duties under section 198A in their annual report.
(2) In this section "annual report" is the annual report prescribed under paragraph 13 of Schedule 3 to the Broadcasting Act 1990.""
Lord De Mauley: Amendments 232C and 233 and Clause 22 stand part work together to help us all to escape from yet another inexorable layer of bureaucracy. Channel 4 is already obliged to produce an annual report that sets out in detail its financial position and how it has met its public service obligations. The annual report also includes a public impact report which sets out in further detail how Channel 4 delivered on its core public service purposes over the previous year.
Channel 4's chairman and chief executive have also recently started appearing before the relevant Select Committee, giving Parliament the opportunity to ask for further information as well as scrutinising the
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So Ofcom, Parliament and the Government already have considerable regulatory oversight of Channel 4. Why are the Government proposing to introduce the bureaucratic and unwieldy mechanism set out in Clause 22 rather than just incorporating any new requirements into the existing scrutiny system? Section 266 of the Communications Act 2003 is redundant. It requires every licensed public service broadcaster to produce statements of programme policy which take a great deal of time to prepare and therefore cost each channel a great many man hours. These reports, I respectfully suggest, have a limited readership: those who produce the statements, a couple of officials in Ofcom, members of the relevant committees, and I struggle to think of anyone else. The reports contain information that is duplicated in each channel's annual report and they add precisely nothing to the viewing public's experience of each channel. They are a very good example of regulation for regulation's sake. I beg to move.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester: My Lords, I am not wholly persuaded by what the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, has just said. An old leadership maxim runs:
"If you can't measure it, you can't manage it".
I believe that removing the need for broadcasters to publish their statements would be a retrograde step at a time when public service content is under serious threat. In the debates leading to the Communications Act 2003, in which I took part, your Lordships were at pains to create a mechanism that provided the public with the opportunity of seeing what their television channels intended to do over the coming year to fulfil their public service remits and how they performed against what they had said they would do in the previous year.
Looking back over the past few years of programme policy statements, we can chart the decline that many viewers are noting. They may not help us to do a huge amount to halt the decline, but they provide something of an automatic braking system on the more savage cuts that might befall public service content if such an annual check were not in place. The statements include information on how channels are providing public service content in non-linear ways, most obviously through their websites and on-demand services; how they are promoting media literacy; how they are engaging with public input and feedback. These policy statements are evolving as the communications landscape changes. I do not believe they are redundant.
We need to be clear that we are not expecting legions of highly paid executives to pore over output figures for days on end to produce reports. In fact, a check on these last statements suggests that most are well under 10,000 words long. The 2003 Act did not demand rigid calculations, it looked for self-assessment-a reflective look back on how the channel had delivered on core purposes. The statements should, at their best, speak in a way from the heart of the channel about its aspirations for serving the public-its consumers.
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We cannot afford to forget, just because times are tight, that we hand a huge privilege to our licensed public service channels. The marketplace for the commercial public service broadcasters is undeniably a challenging one, but the economic context does not devalue the privilege of being a licensed broadcaster on a channel received by the vast majority of the population. With that privilege comes responsibilities, not just to your Lordships or to another place, but to the public as a whole. The simple measurement tool of how the channels are measuring up against those responsibilities is, in my view, not too much to ask.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: My Lords, I agree with what the right reverend Prelate has just said. Channel 4 has been given new, welcome duties under this Bill, and we feel therefore that there has to be accountability. We of course agree with that.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords who have indicated why these amendments should not be accepted, because the Government are also hoping to persuade the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, to withdraw the amendment.
I have of course to defend Clause 22, which the noble Lord is suggesting should be withdrawn from the Bill, because it introduces an accountability and enforcement framework to ensure the fulfilment of the C4C duties introduced by Clause 21. These are based on the existing accountability and enforcement arrangements for the licensed public service channels under the Communications Act 2003. This is a very important clause as far as the Government are concerned.
Amendment 233 would have repealed Section 266 of the Communications Act. Section 266 establishes a framework of annual statements of programme policy for the licensed public service broadcasters. Ofcom has powers of direction to enforce the public service remits and powers to sanction licensees for any breaches of any licence condition. However, the statements of programme policy reinforce the public service broadcasting system by focusing licensees' attention on an overall strategy for delivering their public service remits, rather than concentrating narrowly on the quantitative targets attached to their licences. If the repeal of the statement of programme policy provisions were considered necessary, it would be preferable to do so by secondary legislation. Clause 37 of this Bill amends the Communications Act 2003 so as to permit such a provision to be reversed, also by order. I hope therefore that the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, will see that we have made provision for that eventuality, if in due course that is the wisest position to adopt.
Amendment 232C would introduce a new clause requiring C4C to report on its media content duties in its own annual report and accounts. One of the intentions of the amendment appears to be to exclude Ofcom from this exercise. Although C4C needs to provide the first line of accountability, Ofcom certainly has an important role to play, offering both guidance and oversight. That position has obtained for a number of years.
Clause 22 therefore creates a requirement for C4C to prepare and publish annual accounts of media content policy, setting out how it proposes to discharge
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Concerns have been expressed about the creation of additional regulatory burdens, but Ofcom has indicated that the new arrangements will have minimal start-up and ongoing resource implications. C4C likewise has indicated that the new arrangements will not have material cost implications for it, so we can discount that element.
The Government also believe that it would be unduly restrictive to require C4C reports on the fulfilment of its new content duties to be produced to the same timetable as the annual reports. No such requirement applies to statements of programme policy in relation to the Channel 4 service. I hope noble Lords will see that Amendment 232C is not necessary.
The proposed new Section 198B of the Communications Act 2003, as I have indicated, requires C4C to prepare and publish annual statements of media content policy. Like the statements of programme policy under Section 266, the aim is to focus C4C's attention on an overall strategy for fulfilling its duty. The requirement to publish the statement, which will include reviews of the channel's performance against its previous statement, will help to ensure accountability and transparency. I am sure noble Lords opposite will respond positively to this.
New Section 198C will require Ofcom to review and report on C4C's discharge of its duties under Section 198A. These reviews are to coincide with the reviews that Clause 3 of the Bill introduces, under proposed new Section 264A of the Communications Act 2003, on the fulfilment of the public service objectives by other media services.
New Section 198D creates a power of direction for Ofcom if it considers that C4C has failed to perform one or more of its duties under Section 198A or to prepare and publish a statement of media content policy.
In some cases, increasing the obligations on the licensed Channel 4 service, may be an effective remedy for a failure by C4C to fulfil its functions under Section 198A. Clause 22(2) therefore introduces a proposed new Section 271A of the Communications Act 2003. This provides that if C4C fails to comply with a direction relating to a failure to perform one or more of its duties under Section 198A, and Ofcom is satisfied that it is reasonable and proportionate, it can vary the Channel 4 licence by making or adding such conditions as it considers appropriate to remedy C4C's failure. Ofcom will have the power to vary the licence again if it concludes that any of the new conditions are no longer necessary.
That is the significance of Clause 22, and is why we regard it as absolutely essential that it should remain in the Bill. I emphasise that these issues have been carefully thought through by the Government, as there are advantages in having a position where both C4C and Ofcom have regard in their reports to the obligation of C4C. I hope that noble Lords will therefore consider
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Lord De Mauley: I am disappointed that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester and the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, do not agree with me. I respectfully contend that the information which the right reverend Prelate seeks is already adequately provided. I am afraid that the response of the Minister was what we have come to expect from a Government who have passed two Acts allowing for deregulation, but have hardly used them at all. Just as excessive red tape is strangling our private sector it is also, in our view, placing unnecessary burdens on the public sector. It does not sound as though I am going to get a great deal of support around the Committee, but I strongly want to lodge an objection to what we regard as excessive bureaucracy, so I beg leave to seek the opinion of the Committee.
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