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I am most grateful to the Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
240: Clause 30, page 33, line 33, at end insert-
"97AA Disposal and recycling of domestic analogue radios
(1) Following a decision to give notice to OFCOM under section 97A of a date for digital switchover, the Secretary of State must devise a scheme for the disposal and recycling of domestically owned analogue radios.
(2) The scheme must include provision for a financial incentive for domestic owners of analogue radios to purchase a radio suitable for digital audio broadcasting following disposal and recycling of their analogue radios.
(3) The financial incentive must be based on any profit made from the disposal and recycling of analogue radios and must not be derived from public funds."
Lord Cotter: My Lords, I draw attention to an issue on practical, environmental and financial grounds. My concern is that old analogue radios that are no longer required should be disposed of in an environmentally acceptable way. It is clear that many individual parts of such radios have a recycling value, and we do not want piles of radios to be disposed of in landfills or wherever else.
I read in a newspaper recently that it is likely that there are something like 2.4 radios per household, although I suggest there are a lot more. The older generation quite commonly have many more radios-in different rooms in the house and collected over many years. My wife and I definitely have more than 2.4 radios. Having to dispose of and replace radios could result in financial hardship for many people.
I am talking about the older generation, who are likely to have many more radios, or to need many more radios, the disabled, and others who will have difficulty replacing radios, financially in terms of buying new ones. My amendment calls for environmental and financial aspects to be addressed. In this amendment,
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I hope that the Minister will consider this issue as something of great importance and concern to the older generation, and many who cannot afford to buy new radios, which they do not really feel that they should need. I beg to move.
Lord Howard of Rising: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, has raised an important issue, and I do not think that it requires a great deal of discussion. However, this issue should be considered before any switchover date is nominated. For obvious environmental reasons, a recycling or swap scheme would make sense, and it would be helpful if the Minister could explain whether such a scheme has been considered and, more importantly, who would fund it.
Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I support my noble friend's very sensible suggestion. In the context of what I thought I saw in the news-that the department for business was considering a scrappage scheme in this area-it would fit extremely well, if we were to know where the scrapping would take place and how it would be effected, if there were to be such a scheme. That would be an extremely quick way of moving things along, but I am not sure whether it was a rumour or fact that such a scrappage scheme was being contemplated by the department.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I also support this amendment. There is some doubt as to how many radios are actually going to be available in this way, for two reasons. First, given the number of rooms that we have, a radio is quite a small thing and can be kept around. Secondly, manufacturers are getting very good at the prospect of putting in the chip, or whatever it is, and bringing it much more up to date, so that it can cope with the modern technology to a certain extent, if not quite reaching the digital heights that most of us are one day looking forward to. However, the conservation side of all of this is important, and we should take it very seriously.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, for introducing this interesting if short debate, and to the other noble Lords who have participated. I agree entirely with the representation that he makes, that we need a coherent plan to address the environmental impact of the digital radio switchover. The difference between the Government and the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, is that we do not think that it needs to be in legislation. We will certainly need it-a plan will have to be developed. In the Digital Britain White Paper, we set out our commitment to a full cost-benefit analysis and impact assessment of the digital radio switchover programme before any date is set. These assessments will include a careful consideration of the environmental impact, on which
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Of course, we have obligations too. The European Union's waste electrical and electronic equipment directive, which we implemented in 2006 by regulations, insists that producers of electrical goods are financially responsible for the collection, treatment and recycling of waste electrical and electronic equipment. We know where the obligation is and we know the work that needs to be done.
As to what the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said, I always like the fact that the Liberal Benches quite often, when a constructive idea emerges, automatically assume that it is the Government's idea and initiative. The only problem with that assumption is that it may also involve government expenditure, which raises a different matter. I assure the noble Lord that we are quite interested in his idea of the scrappage scheme. This is an industry initiative and we would need to see details before we could comment further on how that should work. But it is a reflection of the fact that the industry knows where its obligations and its interests lie.
Perhaps I am looking a little negative, which is never my wont on matters of this kind. Let me make the obvious point-my noble friend Lord Young commented on this on a previous amendment-that we have managed the television switchover in a limited area thus far. We are rather proud of the fact that the planning that went into that and the execution of it is throwing up a relatively small number of problems, sufficient for the position to win general plaudits.
Lord Maxton: Of course, the switchover to digital television required very few people to dispose of their television sets. They had to buy a new box to go with that television set. That is very different from radio, although I hope that the industry is looking-it has already done it for the car radio-at a device that would allow a person to listen to digital radio over their existing analogue radio.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I knew that my noble friend would light upon the most sophisticated of the technological changes to effect the best of all possible worlds. I understand entirely that radios create the problem of disposal, which is why the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, has raised the issue. As we know, there will be no little set box placed on top of a radio. There will be disposal, which is an important issue. We are not convinced that financial incentives are necessary. We will look at the matter. No financial incentive was required in the digital television switchover as regards disposal, but my noble friend identified that somewhat different factors were at stake.
I reassure the noble Lord that the issue he has raised is of considerable importance. The environmental impact is a key part of the digital radio switchover planning. I was grateful for the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Howard, also raised issues about the necessity of a careful plan with regard to this. But, as is his wont, he then raised the matter of where the money
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9.30 pm
Lord Clement-Jones: Does the WEEE directive apply to all those radios?
Lord Davies of Oldham: Yes, it does. The noble Lord, Lord Cotter, made the point that there are something like 2.4 radios in his household. I always thought that that was the number of children in the average United Kingdom family. Certainly most households have more than one radio, apart from the impoverished or those who live in 12th-century buildings where a radio would look entirely out of place in the décor. The noble Lord, Lord Howard, may be shaking his head because he would have nothing quite so modern and intrusive as a radio in his home. For the rest of the community, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, is probably more typical, and therefore the issue of the disposal of radio sets is a real one, and I am glad that he raised it.
Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, before my noble friend responds, I want to put to bed the vile calumny that the Minister has perpetrated this evening, in case any Liberal Democrat supporters are watching our proceedings streaming over their internet connections. He said, "I always think it is the Government's idea". I might credit the noble Lord, Lord Davies, with some bright ideas, but not the Government.
Lord Cotter: I thank all noble Lords who have voiced their support for this proposal and agree that this is an issue of some concern. I also thank the Minister for accepting that this is an important matter. It is encouraging that the Minister has said it is important and could well need to be addressed at some future date. I would then expect the Government to follow this through. Going back to the discrete point about the financial aspect, because many in the older generation require radios in different rooms, it would be a financial hardship to have to replace them all. The noble Lord, Lord Maxton, and others said that this is different from digital TV where a box can put on top of the set. With the radio, a number of items have to be replaced.
As I have said, I hope the Government will keep this matter in mind and follow it through as needs be in the future. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
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241A: Clause 30, page 34, line 7, at end insert-
"97C Digital radio switchover helpscheme
(1) There shall be a digital radio switchover helpscheme.
(2) For the purposes of this section "helpscheme" means a scheme funded by central Government to ensure the provision of equipment, facilities and such support as is necessary to deliver a fully inclusive, usable and accessible digital radio switchover.
(3) The digital radio switchover schedule shall include core receiver requirements.
(4) For the purposes of this section "core receiver requirements" means digital audio broadcasting receiving equipment that is accessible and usable for vulnerable people (including the elderly and persons with disabilities)."
Lord Low of Dalston: This amendment would establish a digital radio switchover help scheme on the model of the digital television switchover scheme, designed to ensure the provision of equipment, facilities and support necessary to deliver a digital radio switchover that is fully inclusive, usable and accessible. It provides that the scheme should include core receiver requirements designed to ensure that digital audio broadcasting receiving equipment is accessible and useable by vulnerable people including the elderly and those with disabilities.
This Bill provides powers for the implementation of digital radio switchover-a comparable process to digital television switchover which is well under way across the country and due to finish in 2012. Disabled people currently face significant and sometimes insurmountable barriers to accessing digital technologies and services, with blind and partially sighted people facing more challenges than most. The internet, digital television and digital radio all present real opportunities for blind and partially sighted people if action is taken now. However, if not designed with accessibility in mind, these developments will all too soon become further barriers to blind and partially sighted people.
The digital revolution is happening more quickly than anyone imagined possible. As it gathers pace the digital divide continues to widen for blind and partially sighted people, distancing them from new services and causing them to lose access even to existing ones. The ambitions of Digital Britaincannot be realised if the Government and industry fail to take steps to develop and deliver new products and services that are accessible to blind and partially sighted people. This Bill could go some way to resolving some of the fundamental issues around accessibility and make further progress on the journey to delivering digital inclusion and digital equality to some of the most excluded people in our society.
Research shows that radio plays a fundamental role in providing entertainment, information, inclusion and quality of life for blind and partially sighted people, with more than 91 per cent regularly listening to the radio and more than 80 per cent owning a radio set themselves. As your Lordships might imagine, many blind and partially sighted people rely on the radio, rather than the television, to access news and current affairs, follow sporting events, enjoy music and of course "The Archers".
At present, radio does not require the same level of visual interaction as other media. However, in a recent
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Digital radio switchover relies on the purchase of new digital radio equipment which is currently not accessible to blind and partially sighted people as digital radio sets require the use of electronic programme guides-visual menus-to use the equipment. As has been the case for digital TV switchover, it looks unlikely that accessible digital radio equipment will be produced without government intervention to stimulate the market or to procure accessible radio sets directly. Accessibility is vital. Research shows that visually impaired people are much better able to use radio equipment independently if it has audio output that provides navigational and programme information on core functions such as channel, station and frequency.
Digital radio will offer a new type of service that requires visual interaction with a screen on the radio to access information such as numbers of phone-in shows, the station, its wavelength and details of music and artist. Presenters will be less likely to give this kind of information, since the equipment will do the job for sighted people.
When the digital TV switchover began, a help scheme was introduced to ensure that older and disabled people or those on certain benefits could continue to access digital television. The help scheme provided a set-top box at a fixed cost, which was installed by a technician, who also demonstrated how to use the box and access the new channels. The equipment provided also met a set of requirements-the core receiver requirements-which laid out the minimum accessibility and usability standards for the equipment, which included ensuring accessibility to disabled people. Unlike the digital TV switchover, there is as yet no help scheme proposed to assist qualifying members of the public such as older or disabled people with obtaining and using digital radio equipment. That could mean that older and disabled people would have no support during the transition to digital radio.
Digital radio switchover relies on the purchase of new equipment, which is currently not accessible as digital receivers use electronic programme guides to access the desired station. Accessibility is vital. Research shows that visually impaired people are much better able to use radio equipment independently if it has audio output providing navigational information in audio format. As part of its Are You Really Listening? research, the RNIB, of which I am a vice-president, spoke with manufacturers at various points along the supply chain to establish whether digital audio radios can be easily produced with integrated accessibility features to enhance usability. They confirmed that this
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When discussing the previous amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Howard, asked where the money would come from. That is always a reasonable question, but in this case I am happy to say that there is a ready answer. As we know, the television help scheme is under spent. I know that there is a long line of people queuing up to tell us how to spend the money, but I submit that there could not be a more obvious candidate than a digital radio switchover help scheme. I beg to move.
Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I want to support what the noble Lord, Lord Low, said so eloquently. I went to a conference a few days ago, part of which was devoted to looking at some of the lessons learnt from the TV digital switchover. By and large, because it was planned properly and had a help scheme, although perhaps not as extensive as some of us would have wanted, it has been a success. Certainly, the Granada switchover, which was one of those highlighted, seems to have gone very smoothly. As we know and as the noble Lord, Lord Low, said, the full amount of the money allocated to that digital switchover was not spent, which was a result of the planning and the successful help scheme. The unsung hero in many respects in all this is the voluntary sector; many of us forget that Help the Aged and Age Concern-I am not sure of the new name, or which way round it goes-have been very instrumental in supplementing the Government's help scheme. All that is to say that without a properly thought-through help scheme, I do not believe that the audio digital switchover will be successful, and I hope that the Government take that to heart.
9.45 pm
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, it is amazing that the point to which my noble friend Lord Low has drawn attention had not been thought of before. It is clearly crucial to the effective way in which this switchover can be completed, with minimum suffering-I think we can put it as high as that-for those who rely so permanently on their radios. I hope we are going to hear more on that. He has also identified the source of funding for this important scheme. No doubt the Minister will be able to confirm that there is money, and it can be spent in this way.
The Lord Bishop of Manchester: My Lords, I join other noble Lords in welcoming the intentions that lie behind the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, this evening. A couple of years ago, many other noble Lords and I spoke very strongly when such a help scheme was proposed for television.
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I have only one hesitation: I may be alone in this, and the Minister may be able to guide me in what the legislative processes are. The fact is that at this very moment, the House of Lords Select Committee on Communications has the help scheme on its agenda and is taking evidence about it. My request is simply for guidance from the Minister: I am not sure about the timing. On the face of it, it would make sense if it were possible to hear what the Select Committee is saying on this issue in order to be able to feed that into the Bill and, I hope, strengthen the points that the noble Lord, Lord Low, has made. However, I do not know whether our report will come out in time.
Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, for tabling this amendment, which provides the opportunity to discuss what is clearly an issue of major concern.
In the Digital Britain White Paper, we committed to conducting a full impact assessment, including a cost-benefit analysis, of a digital radio switchover. Our experience from the TV switchover shows that such an analysis is essential in identifying which listeners, if any, would be disproportionately disadvantaged by the switchover, and consequently whether a help scheme is necessary and what its scope might be.
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