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Finally, I should say a word on cyberthreat. The cosy assumptions of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, were not accurate even five years ago. This is not a new threat although it has increased rapidly and exponentially. The document is misleading in implying that the establishment of the Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure in 2007, before I retired from the Security Service, was the first step in defending the UK from cyber attack. This area is covered by acronyms; there are lots of different units and organisations. But extensive work has been going on to protect the UK from this threat for many years, primarily led by GCHQ, my service and others. In the early 1990s it was the National Infrastructure Security Co-ordination Centre-another mouthful. Now the Office of Cyber Security has arrived, plus the Cyber Security Operations Centre, and the Opposition, if elected, plan a Cyber JTAC-the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre-the success of which is widely recognised and imitated internationally.
Since my service proposed to Sir David Omand, then the intelligence co-ordinator, that we should establish a JTAC to pool skills and to share the Security Service's
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3.35 pm
Lord Lyell: My Lords, on 12 July, a notorious date to many noble Lords, including a good few of us here today, I was asked down and received lunch from the then Leader of the Opposition on becoming Prime Minister. She asked about my duties in your Lordships' House. When I said that I was an opposition Whip, she asked what that was. Your Lordships may remember that the Tornado aircraft was first known as the multi-role combat aircraft, so I said that I was an MRCP. The leader said, "I didn't know that you were a member of the Royal College of Physicians". I said, "No, multi-role combat Peer". That applies also to my noble friend Lord King, who introduced the debate. He has done many jobs, but he was quite humble. When I put my name down to speak, I thought that we would be discussing one aspect of what he said-military security. As always, I was a good bit wrong.
Nevertheless, within six years of that interesting talk with the then Leader of the Opposition, I found myself in my first and only ministerial job. I became aware of the enormous range of skills that have been displayed by the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, let alone by my noble friend Lady Park and many others, on intense security within the United Kingdom. I trained for several years as a chartered accountant and I am a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland. Its great motto, and mine, was "Zero errors. Make no mistake". That certainly came home heavily to me in my duties, as many noble Lords will know.
Perhaps I may give an example. Sheets of paper used to come across my desk and I had to compare them. There were three sheets of paper and I noticed that an accent on a particular name was wrong. I said, "Look, zero errors. If there is an error here, the lawyers are going to ask how much more we have got wrong". That brought home to me, a mere amateur, the enormous depth of security and care that must be achieved. It was referred to by my noble friend when he was talking about the cyber effect and all of that. I and anyone else in what I call the retail end of this subject-I am the most humble speaker here today-certainly learnt to read, to speak and, above all, to remember that you will receive only the information that you need to know.
Much happened during my noble friend's time and mine. Although I received only the information that I needed to know, it did not stop me gleaning much more from other sources. My noble friend was honest in his defence of one aspect of his duties when he said that there was a quick turnover. The four years that he shared with me was about as long as any of the jobs that he has done among his many duties. For my part, it was five and a half years, so both of us must have done something right and perhaps not got too many things wrong.
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Will the Minister advise me? I have received in some of my briefing a concept known as CONTEST. I understand that it is an acronym for counterterrorism strategy. There are four aspects to it: prepare, pursue, protect and prevent. The two aspects of prevention and preparation would be up my street and I might be able to take on board part of their discipline. However, I hope that the Minister will be able to elaborate and stress what those entering this arcane and critical world of counterterrorism and security will be able to pursue. Will the Minister write to me or answer me today? I am looking to 2012, and many of us will remember what happened 40 years ago in Munich. Between now and 2012, will the Government please note any security measures that they have for the millions of people who will come to our capital for the Olympic Games?
I thank my noble friend for giving us the chance to debate the subject today and I apologise to him for misreading the Order Paper-perhaps I need new glasses-and thinking that he was going to concentrate on military security. I hope that I have got one or two things right.
3.39 pm
Lord Bew: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, for securing this debate. In a past life, the noble Lord was both Secretary of State for Defence and Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. If he will forgive me, I would like to, as it were, mimic his career by moving between those two fields, because there are at least some aspects of this issue that can be illuminated by the Northern Irish experience.
One point that is not often made is that, on 9 December 1975, the Daily Telegraph carried out a poll that showed that two-thirds of the British people wanted to get out of Northern Ireland immediately. It is not difficult to see why. Between 1971 and 1975, we lost more British soldiers in Northern Ireland than have been lost thus far in the campaign in Afghanistan. The truth, as all of us in this House know, is that that mood of public opinion was not responded to. Today, I think that the British people would take the view that the decent settlement that we now have in Northern Ireland justified-at least to some degree, if anything ever could-the sacrifice of those young men. We must hope that we will be able say that some day about Afghanistan.
The Northern Ireland story, despite its present difficulties, is, by and large, a success story for our characteristic approach to national security. It is a victory for our typical virtues, as we like to see them: pragmatism, compromise and willingness to include violent extremes if they give up violence. In 2002, the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson-himself an impressive Secretary of State for Northern Ireland-argued that the United States, in pursuing its war on terror, should reflect on how the British fought terrorism, opting to negotiate with the IRA through its political wing rather than to defeat it.
All that I respect and understand, but a serious feature of what might be called the characteristic British approach to national security is perhaps less impressive and requires some comment. That is a
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To take that further, the Statement read in your Lordships' House on 20 January-the most recent Statement on security and counterterrorism-arising from the Detroit affair was again silent on the matter of ideology. At the very same time, Mike Leiter, head of the National Counterterrorism Center in the Obama Administration, was giving evidence to both congressional and Senate committees. He talked about a scale, scope and depth of radicalisation in the United Kingdom that was not to be found in the United States. I do not want to enter the debate as to where the Detroit bomber was radicalised, but we must surely note that we are avoiding an issue and giving the impression to the world that we are sticking our head in the sand in our documents and statements on these matters.
Why is that important? First, we need to be clear about what we are defending in our way of life. We are not being clear. The recent debate on Britishness, for example, initiated by the Prime Minister, fizzled out. I dare to say that not a single Member of your Lordships' House is surprised that it did. It is also important to say something else. Although concern for civil liberties, which was very marked in your Lordships' House in the debate about 42 days, is a crucial and defining feature of the British tradition, we must recall that democracies can and do take exceptional measures to survive certain types of threat and then abandon those exceptional measures when conditions change and permit their abandonment. Annexe A of the Intelligence and Security Committee's document Could 7/7 Have Been Prevented? shows how very far we are from being any type of surveillance state. We should keep that in mind when we discuss these matters.
Finally, our ideological agnosticism, so characteristic of the British cast of mind, often coupled with a tendency to blame others for causing terrorism, such as reactionary Ulster Protestants, stiff-necked Israelis or George Bush, is both a strength-I admit that it is a strength-and a weakness. We must recall that we have a situation where dissident republicans are now so active in Northern Ireland that, despite the obvious threats of an al-Qaeda link to the United Kingdom, we have had to make a major shift of intelligence resources back to Northern Ireland to deal with the problem there.
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This tells us that there may be some problem in our approach, even where we have been largely successful. It may be in part because we have not taken seriously enough the business of delivering a killer blow to pernicious ideologies and have almost stepped away from the question. The Prime Minister's preface to the national security document states that we no longer face the threat that we faced from fascism or from the Soviet Union and the current threat is not as challenging to the way of life of the United Kingdom. In the sense that no large state, with the possible exception of Iran, is involved in international terrorism, I see the point, but the threat that we face today is stronger if we take, say, women's rights seriously than the ideological threat from the Soviet Union. It is certainly not less than that threat.
It is essential that we are not shamefaced in defending our values. If we are, we send out a permissive signal to terrorists that they have at least half a point, as significant parts of our metropolitan elite did during the Troubles and, by so doing, merely extended the agonies that unfortunately still continue to plague us.
3.46 pm
Lord Cope of Berkeley: I, too, congratulate and thank my noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater on obtaining this timely and important debate on these extremely wide documents. I find myself following the noble Lord, Lord Bew, not only physically, as it were, but because I want to say comparatively detailed things about Northern Ireland and then about ideology.
Both strategy documents more or less ignore Northern Ireland terrorism. There is one sentence in paragraph 6.26 of the 2009 document, and that is about all. We all hope that the political situation, currently having difficulties, will get back on track, but we must not lose sight of, nor underestimate, the potential for the security situation in the Province to slip back, and that is a worry at present. The section of these documents that emphasises the importance of border controls to anti-terrorist operations seems to ignore the fact that we have a land border as well as airports and seaports. As we all know, the land border between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland is completely porous. It was highly porous even when we had half the Army helping to police it, and it is even more so now. Therefore, no systematic checks are possible on that part of our border, however clever the digital system is at airports and seaports.
In these circumstances, it is extraordinary that, for example, the list of countries whose citizens need visas to enter the UK, so that they can be checked and so on for any terrorist affiliations on the way in, is different from the list for those entering the Republic of Ireland. So far, insufficient effort seems to have gone into trying to co-ordinate the two lists. Much closer co-ordination is needed between the laws of the countries within the common travel area if it is to work in the anti-terrorist field, quite apart from anything else.
I also want to talk about ideology and particularly the Islamist side. I have told the House before that my wife's family has a long Christian connection in East Jerusalem; in particular, they have an interest in a hotel and a children's charity. Our Muslim friends all
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As and when Islamists gain strength anywhere, the greatest sufferers are other Muslims. When there is a terrorist incident here, all peace-loving Muslims feel society's hands and eyes turned suspiciously against them straightaway. It is the same overseas. We should therefore listen carefully to mainstream Muslims who seek to counter the Islamists. I am thinking for instance of the Quilliam foundation, which does excellent work. They urge us to pursue the battle of ideas. We want to be friendly with Muslim nations and to trade with them to mutual advantage; we do not want take over Muslim lands.
The exception to this statement in the West is Israel, which is why building settlements in occupied land, which was discussed in an Oral Question at Question Time today, has a much wider baleful influence than it has even internally in Israel and Palestine. It is a real driver of terrorism all over the Muslim world. I do not mean for a moment that it is the only driver or the original driver of Islamism, but it now plays into the hands of extremists. We must always so conduct ourselves that they have the least convincing arguments for recruiting. That means helping Muslim countries to achieve better living standards, often through the ability to trade. Many of them have excelled at trade for much longer than we have; the Levantine trader is a very old phenomenon. It also means not resorting to excessively repressive measures, such as those which the noble Lord, Lord Bew, discussed just now, that go against our liberal principles and which ultimately create martyrs for their cause. The western way of life is not perfect, but it is the better way and will prove to be ideologically stronger in the end, and we have to fight the case.
3.52 pm
Lord Sheikh: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord King for initiating this timely debate. The main threats to our national security in the 21st century come from an array of challenges such as nuclear proliferation and energy security. However, terrorism stands out as a tangible threat, as we sadly experienced in July 2005.
On our military involvement in Afghanistan, Members in the other place paid tribute yesterday to the latest servicemen to lose their lives in the region. We have a duty to our citizens and Armed Forces to shoulder the collective task of formulating a robust security strategy for an increasingly dangerous world. We need a comprehensive approach to national security that will call on the expertise of many rather than on the opinions
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Border security is crucial to enhancing our national security. It is in our best interests to work with our European partners to achieve this aim. We must also strengthen our historic alliance with the United States. We must innovate and update our defence capacity if we are to maintain our military prowess on the world stage. Failure to do so may jeopardise our standing in the UN Security Council. Foreign policy and national security are linked and should be treated as such. The success of our foreign policy will work to promote our national security and interests at home and abroad. We can take the lead, along with our international partners and supranational organisations, to prevent conflicts from occurring. It is especially important that we adopt this method for Commonwealth countries, particularly as we are bound by history. When I spoke on this subject recently in your Lordships' House, I made that point.
The shared border between Afghanistan and Pakistan has become a hotbed of terrorist strategy and activity. The region is set to account for approximately 75 per cent of investigated terrorism plots in Britain. Closer co-operation with Pakistan and assistance to that country is crucial to our success in Afghanistan and to safeguard our own security. Failure in Afghanistan could have a devastating effect in terms of our national security and stability in the region. History tells us that the war in Afghanistan will be challenging for our servicemen and allies.
Our troops do not have adequate equipment and support in order to fulfil their important tasks. What action is being taken to remedy that unacceptable situation? Furthermore, it is imperative that we build the infrastructure of the country, combat corruption and win the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan to stop radicalisation in that area.
The internet has undoubtedly enriched many areas of everyday life. However, it has also heightened the possibility of cyber attacks. Terrorists and extremist groups are using the internet to convey their messages to a worldwide audience at minimal cost and with minimal effort. A successful national security strategy should pay particular attention to this growing threat.
This country has a proud history of promoting democratic values around the world and in our local communities. Although we are in a heightened state of external threats, legislation must not be allowed to compromise our civil liberties. It is important to strike a balance to ensure that no ethnic or socio groups feel as though they have been targeted. We must foster greater integration and tolerance in our communities.
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The 7 July terrorist attack in London was an immense tragedy. Most disturbing was the fact that two of the suicide bombers who carried out the attacks were born in Britain. As a Muslim, I totally condemn any form of terrorist or extremist activity. Nearly all Muslims are peace-loving and law-abiding citizens, but I accept that there is a problem with a tiny minority. In regard to suicide bombings, I should like to state categorically that Islam forbids the committal of suicide.
In the Holy Koran it is written:
"Whoever kills a human being then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life it is as though he had saved all mankind".
In addition to taking security measures to combat terrorism and extremism, we need to examine fully why some young people undertake these unacceptable activities. At the present time, I feel that we are concentrating more on what I call firefighting. We need to look equally at the root causes of the problems and to undertake remedial actions. To enable us to do this we need the input and participation of the Government, police, security services, local authorities, voluntary bodies and members of the Muslim communities. I add that the media and politicians need to refrain from the use of inflammatory language. We also need to recognise the considerable achievements of the Muslim youth who act as role models. I would like the Minister to comment on what I have said.
I conclude by saying that the question of national security covers a multitude of areas, which is why a narrow approach to the issue will never succeed. Our national and domestic security should be the shared responsibility of many government departments and agencies. Co-operation with our partners in the European Union and other supranational organisations is vital to ensuring that we further our national interests while protecting our national security.
4 pm
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I too thank the noble Lord, Lord King, for giving us the opportunity to hold this debate. I am very much an amateur or lay person in this area, but I do not apologise for taking part because in a representative democracy the Executive cannot rely on, "If you knew what I know". It is entirely obvious that there should be a strategy and tactics, but they are not the same as policy, as the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, said.
I want to talk about just a few of the attributes of a strategy. It should be owned by all who need to implement it, and they are more than the MoD, the Treasury, central government and the agencies of central government. That raises issues because anything cross-departmental seems to highlight the different cultures of government in their different guises. There are differences in the levels of government and differences from those outside government who need to work as partners-and I have no doubt that the international dimension adds to the problems. Government departments speak different languages from one another and from their agencies such as the police, fire and rescue services, which in turn differ from each other and from local government, as well as from the private sector-which
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