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I turn to the very interesting point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, on the duties of statutory harbour authorities. Clearly one issue is the respective responsibilities of the IPC in relation to planning consent and other statutory bodies in relation to safety issues, both inland and on the sea. It is clear that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, is not satisfied with the current regulatory regime in relation to tanker movements and the role of the port authorities. I shall come on to that. Since I have had a little time to discover a little more about the subject, I shall point out what action can be taken by government.

On planning, the IPC is responsible for determining development consent for an LNG facility in England, although that is slightly different in Wales and Scotland. I take the English situation as an example, however. LNG import facilities are most likely to be sited on the coast; they will have unloading facilities including a jetty, onshore storage capacity for the LNG and a regasification plant. The safety of installation in such cases is enforced jointly by the HSE and the Environment Agency under the COMAH regulations. This enforcement continues throughout the life cycle of the installation from the design and build stage through to decommissioning. Under these arrangements applicants will need to assess the safety risks and how to control or mitigate them. The IPC will consult the HSE about the applicant's compliance-

Lord Crickhowell: We know all that. We have both said that repeatedly in both debates. I am not concerned with those facilities; the whole subject that I have raised is the marine operation not the shore-based operation.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: For the benefit of the House, I thought that I would clarify that we are talking about two different regimes. Encouraged by noble Lords, I come to the issue of marine safety.

Regulation for safety of LNG tanker movements is a separate matter for the harbour authority. Specific duties apply to all statutory harbour authorities, which are set out in the port marine safety code. It is not a mandatory code, but there is a very strong expectation by the Government and by other regulatory authorities that harbour authorities will comply with it. Failure to comply with the code may be relevant in determining whether the harbour authority is in breach of certain legal duties. In order to comply with the code, harbour authorities must have an effective marine safety management system which employs formal risk assessment techniques to manage their marine operations. The system should ensure that there is proper control of ship movements within harbour waters, should protect the general public from danger arising from marine activities within the harbour and prevent accidents or emissions that may cause personal injury to employees or others.

My understanding is that LNG shipping has an exemplary safety record. In more than 44,000 loaded voyages, there has never been an incident that has resulted in the loss of containment of LNG cargo. The noble Lord mentioned the Marine and Coastguard Agency. That monitors and enforces the certification

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regime and international standards apply to ships used to transport LNG into the UK. While all UK harbours have a duty to maintain an open port, the port authority has duties to direct vessels and to prohibit entry of vessels which are dangerous or which are carrying dangerous goods. The master of the vessel is responsible for the safety of the vessel. In the case of Milford Haven, Milford Haven Port Authority is responsible for managing operations within the port safely and efficiently. The Secretary of State can intervene if an accident occurs and there is a risk to safety or a risk of pollution by a hazardous substance. Harbour authorities are accountable for safety in their waters; they have a duty to conserve and facilitate the safe use of their harbour and powers to direct vessels. Ultimately, of course, anyone can challenge the decision of the harbour authority by judicial review.

The Secretary of State's representative can intervene if there is a significant incident which risks significant pollution or threatens safety. In future it is possible, of course, that the Secretary of State may have powers of intervention to direct a port if it is acting unsafely. It is one of the proposals on which we consulted for the draft marine navigation Bill. The intention, if that Bill is brought before a future Parliament, is that the power would be used only in exceptional circumstances and after first consulting the harbour authority.

There is clearly a combination of national and local legislation which affects the movement of vessels in harbour waters, especially those which carry dangerous cargo. I am sure that this is not going to satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, but I have tried to set out how we see statutory regulation applying. I know that he is suggesting that we, at the very least, give minimal signposts in the NPS to this position. While I cannot see a case for making these requirements part of the national policy statement, I have taken his point about the need for there to be a clear signpost to where the duties, for instance, of the harbour authority are set out. I assure him that I will consider that and see how that might be done.

Lord Crickhowell: I am not going to delay the House by moving my Motion but perhaps I may ask the noble Lord to draw the attention of the Department for Transport to these points? I am sorry that he has made no mention of the very real alternative of the offshore facilities, about which I spoke, and which are now in use in a number of other countries, of which I gave two examples. I hope that he will consider all these points very carefully before we have an accident with disastrous consequences.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I have discussed this matter with Department for Transport officials and I will ensure that the point raised by the noble Lord is communicated to them.

On the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, first, I thank him for his kind remarks. It felt a bit like an obituary, but I hope it is not so. Energy is a fascinating brief, it has been a great privilege to debate these matters and I hope that I will be able to do so in the future. The emissions performance standard is a difficult issue. As the noble Baroness, Lady Young,

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suggested, that is why we are having this debate. Of course, we have to reduce emissions from our fossil fuel power stations. We already have the EU Emissions Trading Scheme, but I recognise that it is not, on its own, sufficient to reduce emissions from the power sector to the extent required. That is why we have the policy of developing renewables and new nuclear and clean coal. In order to develop clean coal, we have introduced the most environmentally ambitious standards for new coal-fired power stations anywhere in the world.

Of course, with the full chain of CCS processes still not proven at a commercial scale on a power station, we know that legislation and planning frameworks are not enough. That is why we are providing crucial practical assistance. We debated some of this during the Second Reading debate on the Energy Bill only last week. We have made it clear that we expect participants in the CCS demonstration programme to retrofit CCS to the full capacity of the power station by 2025 and our aim is that coal-fired power stations built after 2020 are fully CCS from day one.

I come to the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Young. The time to consider measures such as an emissions performance standard is when the technology has either been proven at commercial scale or has been found not to work. Our worry is that to set a standard now, or at any time before we have seen results from the demonstration programme, is really not the way to go. Accordingly, we are committed to a rolling review process, which will report by 2018, to consider the appropriate regulatory and financial framework required to facilitate the full transition to clean coal.

As the noble Baroness said, the new reporting measures in the Energy Bill will inform this process, as will the future reports of the Committee on Climate Change. The new reporting regime guarantees that Parliament has the opportunity to challenge the Government on delivery of CCS. Our real concern is that the introduction of an emissions performance standard would create a level of uncertainty in the industry that would significantly undermine plans for investment in new fossil fuel generation plant. That would put at risk the demonstration of CCS and any delay in investment in gas-fired power stations will pose significant risks to our security of supply.

I know that there are concerns at what has been described as a potential dash for gas. This is not the intention of our low-carbon strategy, nor do we believe that it will be an outcome. The low-carbon transition plan sets out policies to deliver 40 per cent of our electricity from low-carbon sources by 2020. The energy market assessment, to which I have already referred, is concerned with ensuring that we have the right market mechanisms to get the right balance between the different energy technologies and to meet our emission reduction targets. The investment issue is therefore a very serious one. The energy industry, the CBI and the TUC have made it clear that it would have an adverse impact on investment in new power generation. The Committee on Climate Change did not recommend the introduction of an EPS at present.

We think that the introduction of an EPS at the moment would be premature, but we will listen to this

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very carefully and as the years go by, as we see the outcome of the CCS, we might have to come back to the point. I do not disagree with the noble Lord's reasons for wishing to pursue this, but we have a real concern about a hiatus in investment. We need to see how the scaled-up CCS projects develop before we come back to the point.

This has been a very interesting debate; I think that parliamentary scrutiny of the national policy statements has been very effective. My department now has a great deal of work to do in order to come to a final view, but I have no doubt that it has been very valuably informed by our debates in your Lordships' House.

Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I promised that I would not exercise my right of reply at any length, and I will not. On the Minister's final point, I am not satisfied that the way that we have dealt with this has been the best one. The right answer-I said this during our debates on the Planning Bill-would have been to have had a Joint Committee of both Houses so that this House as well as the other place could have listened to the evidence and had the chance of examining witnesses. We did not have that; instead, we had what I might call unilateral debates in the Moses Room. I want to put that on the record. There will be further national policy statements, and it would behove whichever Government is in office after the election to have another look at that.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: It would be sensible, once we have gone through the initial national policy statements, for there to be an opportunity for a discussion, perhaps in a debate or through the usual channels, about how we felt the current process worked and what improvements could be made. I agree with the noble Lord on that.

Lord Jenkin of Roding: The Minister has also indicated that he is going to take "careful note" and that he has considered everything that has been said-I have taken all his words down-so it would be entirely otiose if I were to go on any longer. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion withdrawn.

Draft Overarching National Policy Statement for Energy (EN-1)

Motion to Resolve

5.42 pm

Tabled by Lord Jenkin of Roding

Motion not moved.



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Draft National Policy Statement for Nuclear Power Generation (EN-6)

Motion to Resolve

Tabled by Lord Jenkin of Roding

Motion not moved.

Draft National Policy Statement for Gas Supply Infrastructure and Gas and Oil Pipelines (EN-4)

Motion to Resolve

Tabled by Lord Crickhowell

Motion not moved.

Draft National Policy Statement for Fossil Fuel Electricity Generating Infrastructure (EN-2)

Motion to Resolve

Tabled by Lord Teverson

Motion not moved.

Crime and Security Bill

Bill Main Page
Copy of the Bill
Explanatory Notes

Second Reading

5.43 pm

Moved by Lord West of Spithead

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, we live in a country where crime is falling, and I glad to say that perception is slowly beginning to reflect that reality.

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Since 1997, overall crime as measured by the British Crime Survey has fallen by 36 per cent, including a 41 per cent fall in overall violence and a 54 per cent fall in domestic burglary. Confidence in the police at local level is rising, with half of people saying that the police and local councils are dealing with the anti-social behaviour and crime issues that matter in their area.

This is testament to the significant achievements that this Government have made in tackling crime since 1997: an overhaul of the youth justice system, the adoption of a multi-agency approach to crime and a specific emphasis on anti-social behaviour where there was none before. We have provided record levels of funding, more police and a comprehensive approach to violent crime, drugs and the reduction of reoffending. It is in this context that I ask noble Lords to consider the Crime and Security Bill. This is a wide-ranging Bill with one area of particular controversy, DNA retention, at its centre.

I am proud to serve in a Government who have consistently provided the police with the tools and support that they need to protect our communities. British policing is the envy of the world, and nowhere is this more apparent than in our use of DNA in investigations. Pioneered in Britain, DNA profiling is one of the breakthroughs of modern policing. It not only provides crucial leads on many crimes, it also eliminates individuals from inquiries. In a world without DNA evidence, thousands of crimes would go unsolved, more dangerous criminals would be walking our streets and victims would be denied the justice that they deserve.

The retention of an individual's DNA profile is not a punishment. Being on the database does not mean that someone is a criminal. Indeed, the fact that your DNA is on the database is effectively not known by anyone. A profile on the DNA database, derived from a DNA sample, consists of 10 pairs of numbers and a genetic sex marker. It does not contain any other personal information.

The DNA database exists to provide justice for victims of crime. That is why we have placed the rights of victims at the heart of the DNA proposals in the Crime and Security Bill. Of course, we must be careful to strike the right balance between collective security and personal rights to privacy. I think that all sides of this House agree that we should retain the DNA profiles of those who have been convicted of a recordable offence. That is why the Bill includes powers to take DNA from those convicted of the most serious offences in the days before DNA was routinely taken in inquiries. These powers will apply to those convicted in the United Kingdom or overseas, but will be available only where a senior police officer judges that the taking of DNA is necessary to assist in the prevention or detection of crime.

While we all want to ensure that the convicted are all on the database, I do not think that a universal database would be proportionate or practical. That leaves us with three questions. First, should we retain the DNA profiles of individuals who are arrested but not convicted? Secondly, if we do retain such profiles, should we differentiate between those arrested for serious and less serious offences? Thirdly, how long

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should we retain these profiles on the database? The answer to these questions is, ultimately, a matter of judgment, but that judgment must be informed by evidence. One should not simply pluck an answer out of the air because it sounds about right, yet this appears to be some people's approach.

Those on the opposite Benches-although I am a little confused about the exact Lib Dem position-would have us adopt the Scottish DNA retention model, which was based on no research whatever. Indeed, the Scottish police do not agree with their own retention model; I refer noble Lords to the statement from ACPOS Scotland of 23 February 2008. The evidence base that we have now developed did not exist when our colleagues in Scotland were setting retention periods. Evidence, not assumptions, should be our guide on an issue of such importance to public protection.

The Opposition's proposals, like ours, recognise that those who are arrested for an offence, even if they are not convicted, pose a higher risk of offending in future, but in other areas I am afraid that they have simply got it wrong. The Opposition would retain the DNA profiles of those arrested but not convicted only where that arrest was for a serious crime, yet the evidence shows that the seriousness of the offence for which someone is initially arrested has no bearing on the likelihood of re-arrest or the seriousness of any subsequent offence.

The Opposition would retain the DNA of those arrested for serious crimes but not convicted only for an initial period of three years, yet the evidence shows that six years is more appropriate. Those who have been arrested but not convicted have a higher risk of offending, as measured by re-arrest, than the general population for six years following the first arrest.

I am aware that the Constitution Committee of your Lordships' House and the Joint Committee on Human Rights are concerned that our proposal to retain the DNA profiles of those arrested but not convicted for six years is liable to be ruled disproportionate when this issue returns to the courts. The Information Commissioner expressed similar concerns in an appendix to the Constitution Committee's report on the Bill. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary wrote to the Information Commissioner on 19 February setting out our response to those concerns, and I am happy to place a copy of that letter in the Library of the House if it would assist your Lordships' consideration of the Bill.

The concerns of these various bodies can be boiled down to a single sentence: our proposals are not compatible with the European convention, and a retention period of six years is too long. Noble Lords will be unsurprised to learn that neither I nor the Home Secretary agrees, and that is why we have both made statements of compatibility under Section 19(1)(a) of the Human Rights Act. In his letter the Home Secretary said,

"Our research suggests that we would expect most of the benefits of DNA retention to occur in the first two or three years following an initial arrest. But there are still benefits to be gained from retention beyond that point, to six years and possibly significantly longer. If there is still a greater risk of offending within that time period, I could not justify a murder or rape case not being brought to justice because an offender had had his

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DNA removed earlier. Our approach ensures that DNA profiles are only retained where evidence indicates it will have an added value".

There has been some discussion in the press of late about the overuse of cautions. I do not intend to get into that debate this afternoon, except to point out to your Lordships that all individuals who are given an official police caution in lieu of court proceedings have admitted that they have broken the law. Yet the DNA retention model proposed by the Opposition would put those who have been cautioned in the same position as those who are innocent of all charges. Such a policy, I believe, is fundamentally misguided.

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