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12.29 pm
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I would like to cover three topics: cluster munitions, Afghanistan and relations between this country and the European Union. I enthusiastically welcome the Government's policies on cluster munitions and the legislation that is to follow. Many people have been involved in the campaign, which I think has proved that lobbying works. The Government listened to many voices, when at the time there were clearly doubts inside the Ministry of Defence. In the end, the Government came to the right conclusion. It was very exciting being at the Dublin convention when we got news that the Prime Minister had finally said that Britain would sign up and many other countries followed.
We can discuss these issues more fully in the debates on the Bill. I say to my noble friend Lady Kinnock that I hope that she has a very long ministerial career but that, if she is in office for many years, she will never find such unanimous support for a measure as she will find on that for cluster munitions. I hope that she makes the most of it. The ban will save lives and limbs and it will make the world a better place for many people. There is still the need to influence those countries that did not sign up to the agreement: the United States, Russia, China, India, Pakistan and Israel, just to name the main ones. I hope that the Government will see as one of its foreign policy objectives the need to persuade those countries to follow the example set by 119 countries in Dublin.
I turn to Afghanistan. Along with many other Members of both Houses, I had the chance to visit Helmand earlier this year for three days at the invitation of the Ministry of Defence. Although I said to the military there, "I hope we will not be getting in your way", I was told, "No, we welcome the fact that you are coming to see what the conditions are and to experience, in a limited way, what is happening here". The visit was confined to Kandahar and Camp Bastion. At that time, the Royal Marines were the main British troops. I thought that morale was excellent and I was impressed by the bonding, the positive views of the Army and the other military personnel there at all levels.
When we asked the troops about equipment, they did not criticise. They welcomed some of the new vehicles, although they pointed out that to go into some of the villages where the streets were narrow they needed smaller vehicles, which could not, by definition, be as well armoured as some of the vehicles that did not have to go into the villages. They had to accept that, if they were to patrol the villages in vehicles, they needed vehicles that were more vulnerable to the explosive devices.
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The only comments that we received about equipment-we tested the Army quite a bit on this-were that the helmets and the body armour that the Special Forces had were somewhat better designed than theirs and they looked forward to that equipment being introduced, as I believe it is. There may be equipment difficulties, but we did not pick up such criticisms. The noble Lord, Lord Astor of Hever, who was there, is nodding. I was left with a very enthusiastic feeling about how well the Army is doing. My noble friend Lady Taylor organises such visits and my thanks go to her for making it possible.
We discussed the difficulties that the troops have in such a vast area. One of the big military difficulties is that, if they take a village from the Taliban, they do not always have the resources to stay there. The villagers say, "Please stay with us because we are vulnerable to the Taliban once the troops have gone". Although we were told about forward positions that were intended to hold the ground better, they are clearly quite vulnerable. I could see the difficulties that the troops had in those circumstances.
We looked at the medical facilities in Camp Bastion and the way in which injured troops are medevaced out to Britain. I thought that the facilities were excellent. We saw the hospital at Camp Bastion, which has intensive care units, operating theatres and so on, and we saw two injured Afghans brought in. I do not believe that one could improve on the medical facilities provided for our injured troops and for injured Afghans.
We went out of the camp to watch the Afghan army training, which was good. I am not a military person but the training was somewhat desultory-perhaps that is all one should expect or perhaps not. We need to step up the training both in terms of the number of Afghans being trained and the effort put into it. Sending more troops to train the Afghan army would be a sensible investment. The only way out of this will be if the Afghan army is large enough, effective enough and well trained enough to play its part.
Of course, this is an impossibly difficult problem for us, the Americans and all the other countries involved but, as has been said, if we pull out, there will be risks. First, we would certainly destabilise Pakistan, which would have dire consequences, and, secondly, if al-Qaeda were to be allowed to return to Afghanistan, it would have a secure base from which to resume attacks on us, on America and indeed on many other countries.
Apart from building up the Afghan army, we need to use our maximum influence with President Karzai to ensure that corruption is tackled so that the people of Afghanistan have more confidence in their regime. No, we cannot impose western-style democracy on the country, but we can demand that the levels of corruption are significantly reduced. I believe that someone has to talk with the Taliban. President Karzai said that he would do that-maybe it is already being done-but the lesson learnt from other conflicts is that one has to talk to people to see whether there is some way forward or whether at least some of the people opposed to us can be persuaded that there is a better future on our side than there is with continuing the hostilities.
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I turn to a point on NATO and Europe. I am a bit nervous that, in the enthusiasm to expand NATO, we may be encouraging the Ukraine and Georgia and other such countries to join. I would urge caution. In the recent conflict in Georgia, I am not sure that it would have been helpful if Georgia had been a member of NATO, as we would have been dragged into a conflict that should not have started. I do not know who was responsible-perhaps both sides were-but it is not sensible for us to say that NATO should expand into those areas unless we are prepared to live with the consequences of saying that we back those countries in a conflict, which clearly we would not have done in Georgia. We also ought to be careful about other countries in the region.
I wish that the EU and our membership of it would stop being the political football of British politics. It has been like that for too long. Frankly, unless we have the self-confidence as a country to treat the European countries equally and to be prepared to say that we are part of this-not a part of a federal Europe but a part of a Europe in which we are willing to co-operate-I fear that there will be more damage to this country and to Britain's reputation. The Conservative Party has got itself into an enormous tangle about this, although I do not say that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has. I am not sure what sort of referendum is being considered for the future. Will we have a referendum to agree on Croatia's accession to the EU or even Macedonia's or Turkey's accession? Is that the kind of thing that the leader of the Conservatives is talking about? I hope that, without a referendum, we can welcome Croatia and Macedonia into the EU before too long, provided that they meet the requirements of the various chapters, which I think they are well on the way to doing.
I would welcome Turkey's membership provided that it meets the standards on human rights, market economy and so on. It is quite a long way off that as yet-it will have to change articles of its constitution and so on-but I believe that the Turkish Government recognise that. Surely, from our point of view, the worst outcome would be to drive Turkey towards seeing as its friends those countries further east rather than those in the west. I believe that, in the fullness of time, Europe with Turkey as a member will be a stronger Europe and safer for it.
12.38 pm
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, particularly on what he said about the importance of pressing President Karzai to get a grip on the situation concerning corruption.
It seems to me that, at the moment, a great ball of anxiety is hanging over this country. In all conscience, there is plenty to be anxious about. At the centre of that depression lies our military commitment in Afghanistan, which featured strongly in the powerful debate in your Lordships' House about a fortnight ago. It is so important that I do not apologise for returning to it today. It was common ground in that debate that we are at war in Afghanistan with the Taliban and, through it, with al-Qaeda. It is a war that I want to make clear I support; it is a war that we have to win.
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However, support in this country for the war is dubious, at best, and the support that it attracts is repeatedly and understandably shaken by every fatal military casualty that it, like all other wars, exacts. I find that worrying, because you cannot sustain a modern war if you do not have the support of the country behind you. I remember a noble and gallant Lord saying to me once that the very first thing that soldiers on active service said to him when he visited them was, "Is the country behind us? Is the country behind what we are being asked to do?". I can well believe that that is the case, so it is important to identify why this war increasingly lacks the support that it needs if we are to win it. I offer your Lordships two principal reasons and a possible remedy, or at least a signpost towards a remedy.
The first reason is clear: people, as yet, are simply not persuaded that their lives would be made more dangerous in London, Cardiff, Leeds or Liverpool if we were to pull out and the Taliban could resume control over the whole of Afghanistan. The Government, I fear, have signally failed to win acceptance to that. I say that with regret, because I am persuaded that the Government's case is right, but it is not easy to persuade people of that. People ask whether, even if the Taliban were to be driven from Afghanistan-and that is a pretty big if, given the nature of the country-it would not simply transfer to Waziristan. They ask, "What is this we hear about Somalia and other places that it could go to?". They ask, perhaps unjustifiably, "Is Pakistan really sufficiently to be relied on to help us, or is it more preoccupied with squaring up to India?".
I am sure that the Government know that and have answers, but I do not think that they appreciate their need to do much more to convince people of their case. It will not be easy-not least because Ministers are so associated nowadays with spin, which is a disability that they brought on themselves-but they must publish as much supporting evidence for their case as possible. The consequences of failure are so great that some exceptional risks with intelligence may well be justified.
The second main reason why support for the war is falling away lies in the perception that our military commitment in Afghanistan is open-ended. We have been told that we shall be there for as long as it takes to hold the ring, as it were, until a secure and democratic Afghan Government are in place, capable of defeating the Taliban and running a decent country. I fear that after the fiasco, or worse, of the recent general election in that country, riddled with corruption and invalidated by it as it was, people find the fulfilment of that vision hard to envisage.
I am sure that the objective is the right one and that to leave before it is achieved would be-the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, reflected on this in relation to his visit to the medal parade on his regiment's return the other day-to squander the sacrifices that have been made and to throw away the progress that has been made. It would be to court humiliation and contempt on the world stage. Several noble Lords have adverted to that. The trouble is that people have not been given any sufficient idea as to how the Government and their allies propose to go about securing that
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My suggestion is that, as a first step, the objective should be given a much sharper focus. At the heart of it, a viable democracy must have public confidence that those who hold public office will do their jobs without being bribed and that, for those who proffer bribes to them, there will be no place other than prison. I suggest that the first step be to press President Karzai to put in place an independent structure to root out bribery-if necessary, with expatriate personnel to start with.
There is a well tried example in Hong Kong, where since 1974 there has been a specialised Independent Commission against Corruption. It was given from the beginning a clear and simple strategy to implement: all pursuable allegations of bribery are to be investigated with a view to prosecution and the public are to be educated about the evils of corruption and bribery and persuaded to support the fight. I know that Hong Kong is not Afghanistan-for example, the rule of law was already well established there-but can we afford to ignore the results of that exercise? In the 1960s and 1970s, Hong Kong was one of the world's worst sumps of corruption; now, it is seen as one of the world's least corrupt places. At an early stage, the public began to notice the difference and they approved. They moved from expecting a culture of bribery to requiring a culture of integrity. The commission is now an untouchable icon.
If we can secure the establishment of such a commission with such a remit, an essential foundation for a viable democratic Government will have been laid. If, on the other hand, we try first to put in place some comprehensive framework for good governance, any attempts to install specific reforms are liable to be frustrated by pre-existing and uneradicated corruption. I hope that when winding up the debate the Minister will offer some thoughts on that and, in particular, will say what significance the Government are inviting President Karzai to attach to the Hong Kong example of what can be achieved.
12.47 pm
Lord Jay of Ewelme: My Lords, I start by echoing the tribute made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, to our Armed Forces in Afghanistan. In particular, I pay tribute to the role played by our helicopter pilots and crews and those who support them. I do that for two reasons. First, the joint helicopter base at RAF Benson is just down the road from Ewelme, and I know well the sacrifices that they have made in Iraq and are making in Afghanistan. Secondly, when there is so much focus on the helicopters that we do not have, it is good to remember the bravery, sacrifice and professionalism of those who operate the helicopters that we have.
However, I focus today more on how we prevent future conflicts, conflicts which cause great humanitarian crises, damage our interests and may draw our Armed Forces into bitter and difficult wars. It is, alas, only too easy to see where tomorrow's risks and conflicts may lie, conflicts which would inevitably draw in the
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First, I turn to Sudan. There is, rightly, a strong focus on Darfur, where the humanitarian crisis is acute, but there is an equal if not greater danger that in the referendum planned for 2011 under the terms of the comprehensive peace agreement between the north and the south, the south decides to secede, the north resists and a further bloody war breaks out. That is a really frightening prospect.
Conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo is now focused in the east, in North Kivu province around Goma. Despite the largest UN peacekeeping force in the world today, recent fighting there has seen 1,000 civilians killed, 7,000 women raped and more than 1 million people displaced; and the prospects are not encouraging. I greatly look forward to the forthcoming speech from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester, which I hope will touch on the Democratic Republic of Congo.
I turn, finally, to Liberia. Liberia has a functioning democracy with an impressive president, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf. However, the economy and political system are fragile after 14 years of vicious civil war and the prospects for the elections in two years' time are uncertain. Guinea, to the north, is volatile. If that volatility should spread to Liberia, the impact on Sierra Leone, to the west, where we have invested huge amounts over the years, could be disastrous.
So how can we prevent conflicts in these and other areas in the future? My first suggestion, which I have made before-and to which I know the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, is sympathetic-is to urge the Government to work to make the UN doctrine of responsibility to protect a reality and not just an aspiration. Behind the jargon "responsibility to protect" is a UN principle of huge importance: a pledge by world leaders to protect their populations from genocide, from ethnic cleansing and from crimes against humanity, and to give the rest of us the responsibility to ensure that they do just that. It is of course controversial. It is seen by some as undue interference in the domestic affairs of others and even as a justification for military adventures. However, as the UN Secretary-General himself recognises, it is not that. It is a doctrine which, if widely accepted, could improve governance in some pretty dire states by putting pressure on leaders to abide by proper standards and by giving the international community as a whole the means to exert such pressure. Had it been in operation, the genocide in Rwanda, the conflict in Darfur and in Sierra Leone and the civil war in Liberia might at the least have been less likely.
The UN resolution adopted by consensus at the General Assembly in July was a modest step forward. May I encourage the Government to work with others-in particular the United States; Canada, whose idea it was; the EU and likeminded developing countries-to strengthen the doctrine so that it can play a real role in preventing future conflicts? This is an idea whose time must come.
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Secondly, and moving from what is now still a theory to what is very much practice, I urge the Government, and any future Government, to ensure that Britain continues to play, and indeed increases, the active role it plays in present and future conflict prevention and resolution activities. This means supporting the UN in its peacekeeping activities. On one specific point, I urge the Government, when the mandate for the UN peacekeeping force in the Democratic Republic of Congo comes up for renewal next month, to work to extend it to cover peacebuilding as well as peacemaking and to work with the African Union to strengthen the capacity of the Congolese army to prevent future atrocities in that benighted country.
It also means working with the European Union, now that the Lisbon treaty has been ratified, and in particular with the new high representative, whoever may be chosen this evening, to put conflict prevention and resolution high on the EU foreign policy agenda-with, I would suggest, Somalia and the Horn of Africa, Sudan and the Great Lakes as priorities. This does not mean limiting our horizons to the EU but using our influence in the EU to further our interests elsewhere. As the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said a moment or two ago, we must have the self-confidence to recognise and to act on that. I believe very strongly that that is in Britain's interest, it is in Europe's interest, and it would be greatly welcomed by the United States.
Finally, I urge the Government once again, as many of your Lordships have in recent months, to recognise that cuts in our conflict prevention budget are hugely short-sighted. I know the budgetary pressures. I know that there have to be priorities and savings. However, to cut small sums now that can prevent the expenditure of large sums later if conflict does, alas, break out, makes no sense at all. Surely that must be a point that all government departments, including the Treasury, recognise as common sense. But that is what we are now doing, alas-wrongly, in my view-in Liberia. The Government must find a way at least to prevent the erosion of our peacekeeping budget from the depreciation of the pound, which has a completely arbitrary effect on the activities that we need to carry out to prevent conflicts in the future.
I hope that the strategic defence review that will take place next year whichever Government are in power will ensure enough capacity in our force structure to enable Britain to play a major role in conflict prevention and resolution in the years ahead. This is an area of great strength for this country thanks to the professionalism and reputation of our Armed Forces, and we must capitalise on that. It would be good to have an assurance to that effect from both Front Benches at the end of this debate.
12.55 pm
The Lord Bishop of Winchester: My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord. This summer in Kindu in the province of Maniema in Congo I had the privilege, with my wife and the Congolese Anglican Bishop of Kindu, of spending an hour or more at Merlin's headquarters in Kindu, Merlin delivering medical services, effectively for the province of Maniema, in immensely complex conditions.
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A hundred years ago today there was an enormous demonstration at the Albert Hall, with people queuing all around the block and the Albert Hall standing room only, chaired and organised by the then Archbishop of Canterbury, Randall Davidson, around what was then seen as the moral outrage of the situation in Congo. Today the Archbishop of Canterbury and my other friend, the Anglican Archbishop in Congo, Archbishop Isingoma, have published a statement about the whole situation. There was a celebration and a reiteration of that demonstration at the Albert Hall this morning, at which I had the privilege of speaking. My apologies, therefore, to the Minister and to noble Lords for missing the first four minutes of her speech.
In the terms of the Archbishop of Canterbury of a hundred years ago, the real hideous outrage is that the situation is today as it is, and not only in the east of the country-statistics on which have just been well given by the noble Lord. The LRA is rampant in the north-east-there have been hideous outrages both at Christmas and ever since-and in southern Sudan and in the Central African Republic. Even recently there has been a fresh outbreak of conflict in western/north-western Congo, with 21,000 refugees fleeing into the northern parts of Congo-Brazzaville-another hideous state, by the way-in recent weeks.
Today's demonstration at the Albert Hall was particularly concerned with the levels of rape in Congo. The levels of sexual violence are appalling. To put it baldly, where you see the words "sexual violence" alongside "rape" it means the things that are done to women in addition to rape, with the ends of guns, with bayonets, with sticks and so on. At one meeting of 200 to 250 members of the Mothers' Union in Kindu in the summer, many of the ladies had walked 200 kilometres to meet their bishop's wife, their bishop, my wife and me. There was a second meeting after the first and after the lunch where those who had been themselves raped joined together to talk further with my wife and the bishop's wife. Some 50 of those 200 to 250 women came to that meeting as having themselves suffered rape and sexual violence. Kindu, as the noble Lord will know well, is not at the heart of the war area by any means. The situation there, in that respect as in so much else, is appalling.
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