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House of Lords

Thursday, 14 October 2010.

11 am

Prayers-read by the Lord Bishop of Chester.

Audit Commission


11.06 am

Asked By Lord Harrison

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): My Lords, subject to Parliament enacting the necessary legislation, local audits will be regulated within a statutory framework overseen by the National Audit Office and the audit profession. Councils will appoint their own independent external auditors and there will be new audit arrangements for local health bodies. The commission's in-house audit practice will be moved to the private sector and other functions of the commission will cease or become the responsibility of auditors or other existing bodies.

Lord Harrison: Why, without consultation and at a time of financial retrenchment, do the Government abolish the established Audit Commission, whose value is demonstrated by its extracting value for money when public money is spent on the National Health Service and in the local authority sector? Does the Minister agree with the ACCA and with CIPFA that what will happen if we give this to private audit firms is that there will be many more conflicts of interest; that often they will have no appetite to take up the work; and worst of all, that the independent voice of the Audit Commission, which was able to criticise government, will be lost? Has not the pretty Mr Pickles got the Government into yet another pretty pickle?

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, in the current financial climate, it makes absolutely no sense for Whitehall to own the fifth largest audit practice in Britain, particularly when it provides services that can readily be obtained in the private sector. The commission's monopoly on appointing local auditors weakens competition and also weakens the localism that should be available to local government. Certainly in my time in local government, one of the things that irritated me most was the fact that you could not choose your own auditors. Now there will be much better and more open ways of doing that.

Lord Christopher: My Lords, I declare a past interest in that I have been a member of the Audit Commission. The noble Baroness has said exactly the opposite of what the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, said when she was Prime Minister in 1981 and set up the Audit Commission in 1982. I quote Mr Pickles when he said:

"I'm not interested in research and evidence-I'm here to take decisions".

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We know the basis on which this decision has been taken. If the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, was wrong, how, according to what the Minister has described, do the Government aim to take forward the then three aims of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher-namely, to raise and maintain the quality of audit, to increase cost-effectiveness, and, above all perhaps, to get value for money? How will each of those aims be advanced?

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, 1981 was quite a long time ago, just in case that has not been appreciated. Also, since then, the Audit Commission has assumed far greater roles than my noble friend Lady Thatcher ever envisaged it doing. It is now our view that it is time to put audit into the hands of local authorities so that they can demonstrate for themselves that they can choose auditors. Some inspection powers will still be in the hands of Ofsted and the Care Quality Commission to ensure that there is value for money and propriety in those services. Local authorities will have to take a very keen interest in how their services are run, the value they get for the money they pay, and the standards that they achieve.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, it is good to know that this coalition Government are not very Thatcherite. There was rejoicing among local authorities throughout the land when Eric Pickles announced that the Audit Commission was being abolished. The succession of top-down schemes, from best value to the comprehensive performance assessment and the comprehensive area assessment and so on, have wasted vast amounts of time and money in local authorities. Although it will take time to close down the commission, will the Minister confirm that new Labour attempts to micromanage anything on the ground that moves have come to an end and that local authorities can now use their resources to get on and do the jobs that they were elected to do?

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, yes,

Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the Minister has talked about value for money. Please will she tell the House what impact assessment has been undertaken of the proposals to abolish the Audit Commission and whether she will publish it? In particular, will she say what are the estimated winding-up costs and how long it will be before any savings are anticipated?

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, clearly there will be savings. At the moment, the estimate is about £50 million, but I expect that may vary either up or down. The Audit Commission has appointed Gareth Davies to see how the commission is taken into the private sector, which is an excellent move forward. I look forward to seeing how that goes and the Audit Commission's proposals for the future.

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, without regard to the merit of this particular decision, does my noble friend agree that we should look rather closely at the record of the major accountancy and audit firms in this country? After all not one of them detected anything wrong with any of the bank accounts which they audited.

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Baroness Hanham: My Lords, nor did the previous Government. They missed that, as well as the audit companies. The private sector can only be strengthened by having another major audit company within it and the Audit Commission will, I hope, become that. There will then be a wider market for local authorities to delve into for audit.

Lord Barnett: My Lords, given the various new bodies that will carry out the functions previously done by the Audit Commission, can the Minister say whether, before abolishing the commission, any estimate will be made about the increased or reduced cost and how that will help to do the job of auditing?

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, clearly there is more work to be done. The announcement has been made quickly so that there is no hold up or detriment to the Audit Commission. As I have said, at the moment the calculated savings are £50 million, so presumably that will also include other work to be done.

Pakistan: Child Welfare


11.13 am

Asked By Baroness Massey of Darwen

Baroness Verma: My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for all the hard work she does in ensuring that the welfare of children across the world is raised continuously. The UK Government's development programme promotes child welfare in Pakistan in several ways. Our support in education will help 5 million more children to attend primary school by 2013. Our support to the national health facility has helped to save 200,000 children's lives, stopped 800,000 children from becoming malnourished and prevented 15,000 mothers from dying. Our humanitarian support after the recent flooding has provided more than half a million malnourished children with food supplements.

Baroness Massey of Darwen: I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words and for her response. In doing so, I declare an interest as a trustee of UNICEF UK. How are those efforts by so many organisations in Pakistan being co-ordinated with respect to children's welfare?

Baroness Verma: My Lords, the UN is responsible for co-ordinating the international humanitarian response. All of DfID's humanitarian aid is directed through UN agencies or established NGOs, in line with standard humanitarian practice. Each key area-health, water, sanitation, shelter and food-has a separate cluster, with members including the Government of Pakistan, various UN agencies, NGOs, DfID and other donors. Members, including officials from the Department for International Development, meet regularly to share information within and across clusters to ensure a co-ordinated and efficient response. The Secretary of

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State said in his ministerial Statement on 12 October that the "scale and shifting patterns" of the crisis make it a challenging situation.

Lord Chidgey: My Lords, although I thank my noble friend for that response, is she aware that in the 12 months before the flooding in Pakistan, the infant mortality rate rose for the first time for seven years, by 7 per cent? Are the Government's plans for child welfare aimed at reversing that trend, which is obviously alarming, as well as coping with the additional challenges caused by the recent flooding?

Baroness Verma: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that important question. DfID is supporting female health workers in Pakistan. We have supported health workers through the national health facility, providing nutritional advice and distributing supplements to pregnant women, adolescent girls and children. At the UN summit, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Secretary of State made a further commitment to ensuring that the lives of 50,000 more women are helped to be saved by providing additional nutrients and nourishing meals, as well as making sure that facilities are in place in the health service.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, can the Minister give this House an assurance that no money in the budget of the Department for International Development for Pakistan or any other country will be used in future for purposes currently funded by the defence department?

Baroness Verma:My Lords, all of DfID's funds are in line with the strict guidelines of the OECD.

Lord Elton: My Lords, is the funding of which my noble friend speaks delivered to the eventual beneficiary by agencies of the Government of Pakistan, by voluntary agencies or by other means-and, if so, what means?

Baroness Verma:I thank my noble friend for that question. All humanitarian aid is given through NGOs, but DfID government programmes go through a number of organisations, and some go through the Pakistan Government.

Lord Brett: My Lords, in pursuance of the previous question, while appreciating the efforts that have been made internationally, UNICEF and a number of NGOs have been very critical about the efficiency and speed with which aid is getting through to those most in need. Given the Government's previous assurances, how in their present endeavours are they ensuring that that is improved in the coming months, particularly in the light of the flooding disaster?

Baroness Verma:My Lords, I am sure that the House agrees that it has been a disaster on a huge scale. We are looking to ensure that our response is in line with that of other agencies. It is a really big disaster. All that I can say to reassure the noble Lord is that we will play our part at the forefront; we in DfID will do our very best to help all other agencies.

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Viscount Slim: My Lords, there is some good news in Pakistan. I declare an interest in that I am heavily connected to 17 eye hospitals throughout Pakistan. At this stage, we have probably restored sight, given succour and repaired the eyes of 2 million Pakistanis, and a large percentage of them are children. The problem is the lack of hygiene in the villages. The dirt affects the eyes. In this instance, the money is getting to the right people, and the Pakistani surgeons are of the highest quality.

Baroness Verma: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Viscount on all the hard work he does. We recognise that a lot of good work is being done, but the department is reviewing its bilateral and multilateral aid to make sure that where our aid is being used, it is being used to the best possible advantage.

The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is important that women are not only the recipients of aid but are also drawn as far as possible into the political processes? Does she look, for instance, to the example of the work of CARE International? Will she use her department's influence and example as far as possible to ensure that women are fully drawn into any discussions in this area?

Baroness Verma: I thank the noble Earl. As he is aware, we have put women and the empowerment of women at the heart of our priorities. We will work very closely with other departments and nations to ensure that women are at the forefront of decision-making whether in the political process or at civic level, which is also key to ensuring the empowerment of women and girls.

Israel: Illegal Settlers


11.21 am

Asked By Lord Wright of Richmond

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, all settlement activity in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is illegal and represents an obstacle to peace. We have consistently pressed Israel to renew its settlement moratorium and are very disappointed that it has not yet done so. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary delivered this message to Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman on 27 September and reiterated it on 6 October. The European Council also set this out in its statement on 16 September.

Lord Wright of Richmond: I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that as of June this year up to 200 housing units were under construction that started construction while the so-called moratorium was in place? They add to the 2,000 building units that started before the moratorium and continued right

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through it to this day. Does the Minister recall that in 1982, after the Israelis invaded Lebanon, the Conservative Administration, of which he was a member, imposed a ban on all British arms to Israel until the invasion was reversed? Will he consider with our European partners a similar ban on an EU-wide basis until a genuine moratorium is put in place and the Israeli Government start to remove illegal settlers from the West Bank and East Jerusalem?

Lord Howell of Guildford: I totally share the noble Lord's correct frustration and dismay that the building activity has gone on even during the moratorium and is probably continuing at this moment in a highly provocative way. We regard that as illegal.

As to embargoes and export restrictions, we take the view that the total isolation of Israel would be a backward, not forward, step in this painful process. We fully agree that pressure must be mobilised. As far as an arms embargo is concerned, we have very tight, rigorous and effective consolidated EU and national export licensing criteria, which we employ. These work very effectively. As the noble Lord indicated, any further ban on development would have to be not merely EU-wide but virtually worldwide. We think that the isolation route is not the right one except, of course, for the crucial issues that I mentioned that are under very tight licensing control.

Lord Janner of Braunstone: Does the noble Lord accept that Israel is the only democracy in that area and, like our own, it does not always elect a Government with whom we agree? Some of us do not agree with our present Government in some matters and that is certainly the view of those on this side of the House. Does the noble Lord agree that the EU should keep working with the quartet and the US to encourage the Israelis and the Palestinians to make peace through negotiations and that reprimanding either side is counterproductive to producing the result which we all would like to see?

Lord Howell of Guildford: On the general proposition, obviously, yes, we desperately want to see peace between Israel and Palestine and we want to see the negotiations resumed and continued. But where we are asked to use our good offices and where we want to bring influence to bear, it seems perfectly reasonable to point out in what the noble Lord calls a reprimand that certain actions taken by either side may be going the wrong way. One thing that is going the wrong way is provocative settlements continuing in occupied territories, which must be setting these negotiations back. That is a reasonable proposition to put forward even to those who recognise fully the needs and the right of Israel to secure its proper security.

The Lord Bishop of Chester: My Lords, at what point does the extent of the settlement activity, particularly in the West Bank, render the two-state solution an impractical aim?

Lord Howell of Guildford: Behind the right reverend Prelate's question is a fear which I and many share. There could come a point when there is so much building and intrusion that it cannot even be contemplated

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as part of the swap of lands or anything else in a final negotiation. This reinforces our determination to bring to bear on the Israelis the necessity of continuing the moratorium on new building and to realise that in the eventual negotiation settlement this matter has got to be reasonably settled so that there can be a viable Palestinian state.

Lord Pannick: My Lords-

Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords-

Baroness Miller of Hendon: Does any assessment made by the Government take into account the fact that these settlements provide a haven from which Hezbollah and Hamas cannot continually throw bombs and things across into Israel, as has happened since Israel gave up control in Gaza?

Lord Howell of Guildford: There are security dangers in all these developments. Obviously, attacks on Israel from Hezbollah and from rocketing from Hamas in Gaza are matters that make it more difficult for the negotiations to go ahead. These two are deplorable developments and they must cease if we are to make progress.

Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords-

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords-

Lord Pannick: My Lords-

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde): My Lords, if both noble Lords are quick, I am sure that my noble friend will be able to give an answer-first, the noble Lord, Lord Lea, and then the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.

Lord Lea of Crondall: Does the Minister agree with the point being put to our friends in the Israeli Government that public opinion in this country and much of western Europe is influenced by the fact that there were two sides to the Balfour declaration? One is creating a homeland for the Jewish people and the other is observing the rights of the Palestinian people.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My noble friend is urging short answers, so the answer is yes, of course there are two sides.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords-

Lord Pannick: My Lords, does the Minister agree that a more fundamental obstacle to a peace settlement than the settlements in the West Bank, which occupy some 5 per cent or so of that territory, is the failure of Arab states to introduce into their own countries the rule of law and the right to freedom of expression which would promote a real debate in those countries about the true interests of the unfortunate Palestinian people?

Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is of course right that the issue of settlements is difficult. It is not the only issue and there are many broader considerations on which he has quite correctly touched.

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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords-

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords-

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I feel that we need to go to the next Question.

Government Efficiency: Sir Philip Greens' Report


11.29 am

Asked By Lord Eatwell

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, as Mr Francis Maude, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, said on Monday, Sir Philip Green's findings clearly demonstrate the scale of inefficiency and waste present in the system today. It is clear that there is a huge opportunity and a real willingness on behalf of civil servants to take on the important task of delivering efficiency. We welcome the sense of urgency that Sir Philip has brought to this work and are looking at how we can best take forward key recommendations.

Lord Eatwell: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that we on these Benches welcome many of the conclusions in Sir Philip Green's report? It is the latest in a long line of similar initiatives, such as those in the report of Sir Derek Rayner in the 1980s which uncovered gross inefficiencies in the Government of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, and in the work of Sir Peter Gershon for the Labour Government, saving many billions more than the Green report identifies. However, we find the key conclusion, emblazoned on the cover of the report, that,

"The Government is failing to leverage both its credit rating and its scale",

very disturbing. Translated into everyday language, that amounts to a recommendation that the Government abuse their market power to worsen payment terms and force down supplier prices. Will the noble Lord join me in supporting good practice in business and reject Sir Philip Green's invitation to the Government to abuse their market power?

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his exposition of the Opposition's position on this matter, but to answer his question, it is true that the Government have failed to leverage their position. Perhaps I may give an example that in fact stems from the previous Government, energy, which is a very good example of what can be achieved by using leverage. The purchase of 75 per cent of electricity and gas requirements has been centralised in an expert team, resulting in cumulative savings of £500 million. That is a substantial sum and something worth achieving.

Lord Martin of Springburn: My Lords, I do not doubt that the senior officers of both Houses will be looking at efficiencies for this great historic building of

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ours. Can I ask for assurance that, in doing so, we never reduce the standard of security? I ask this not for selfish reasons, but because we have a dedicated staff of thousands of people here, as well as thousands of visitors. We owe it to them to make sure that security is not loosened in any way because of so-called efficiencies.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I think I can reassure the noble Lord on that point because I have read Sir Philip's recommendations, and there is no recommendation on security matters. However, I am sure that the appropriate committee of this House and the other place will make any necessary judgments on these matters.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, do the Government recognise that this headline-catching report is one in a succession of reports following that of Sir Peter Gershon? Some of its recommendations for centralised procurement seem to run counter to the Government's own intentions about the localisation of accountability and to the fact that the greatest savings can be made not in centralised government spending but in respect of spending by the health service, the education sector and other decentralised public bodies? Does he agree that the Government should not rush to judgment in proposing to institute a major, overall purchasing authority, but should consult widely before they do so?

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, inevitably, the Government will strike a balance on these matters. They see decision-making as essentially a local issue, but there are opportunities in the centralised negotiation of price.

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: My Lords-

Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords-

Lord Sugar: My Lords, using his own words, Sir Philip says that his findings are nothing more than "common sense", and I absolutely agree with him. He has produced a very good report in the short period of time he had to do it in. But does not the noble Lord agree that it is time to centralise buying and to bring in some kind of head honcho from the private sector who knows what they are doing and pay them the right amount of money, which they would be paid in a large organisation? If you do that, you will end up paying someone a rather exorbitant amount of money that is many multiples of what the Prime Minister earns. However, Sir Philip did admit, in another of his famous statements in the report, that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. [Laughter.]

A noble Lord: You're fired!

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I think the noble Lord is seeking from me the phrase "You're hired", but I fear that is not within my gift. The Government intend to take these proposals forward and the Efficiency and Reform Group is dealing with these matters. There are opportunities: for example, the telephone bill across government is £2 billion. At that level it will be worth the Government buying their own capacity within the telephone service. I am sure that that is the kind of decision the Government will pursue.

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Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: My Lords-

Lord James of Blackheath: My Lords-

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, we have reached 30 minutes.

Arrangement of Business


11.36 am

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, later today, after the debate in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach will repeat a Statement entitled "Public Bodies Reform".

Superannuation Bill

First Reading

The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first time and ordered to be printed.

Business of the House

Timing of Debates

Moved by Lord Strathclyde

That the debate on the Motion in the name of Baroness Massey of Darwen set down for today shall be limited to two hours and that in the name of Baroness Wall of New Barnet to three hours.

Motion agreed.

Human Trafficking


11.37 am

Moved By Baroness Massey of Darwen

Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, I am very pleased to have secured this debate today. The 18th of this month is Anti-slavery Day and human trafficking has been described as a modern form of slavery. Indeed, it has many of the features of slavery. Slavery is about power over individuals; it is about degradation and the removal of rights and dignity; it is about loss of personality and self-worth; it also often carries financial gain. All of this applies to the terrible practice of human trafficking.

I thank noble Lords-not only those in the Chamber today-for the support that they have given on this topic. There have been debates across the House and in another place on trafficking and we should today hope to build on those debates. The noble Baroness, Lady Verma, recently held a useful meeting with representatives of organisations concerned with child trafficking; I am grateful to her for that and for her commitment in this area. I have received more briefings for this debate than I have ever received before. This shows the degree of concern about human trafficking and a commitment to improve systems to deal with this abuse. Many organisations-too many to mention,

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although I shall draw on their experiences-are doing a remarkable job in their advocacy for and support of trafficked people.

I declare an interest as a trustee of UNICEF and a patron of the University of Bedfordshire unit on trafficking. All the organisations, often working together, are totally dedicated, but they need recognition and support. I hope that the Minister will be able to offer that recognition and support today.

I shall begin by offering a few statistics on trafficking and I shall then focus on child trafficking in the UK, surely one of the most abusive and wicked of practices. I shall mention the proposed European directive; I know that many noble Lords are interested in this. I am also aware that noble Lords have a variety of issues that they want to raise and that there is great expertise around the Chamber. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, cannot be present today. She has particular concern and knowledge about the trafficking of children in London, highlighted in a recent Evening Standard report.

Here are a few statistics. Estimating the number of people trafficked is difficult due to the hidden nature of trafficking. It has been estimated that, globally, the number is 12.3 million, with prosecutions numbering barely more than 4,000 in 2009. In the UK, it is estimated that there are more than 5,000 victims of trafficking and between 100,000 and 800,000 victims in Europe. These were the findings of the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee in 2008-09. As we can see, the estimated numbers are diverse and unreliable. It has been estimated that the total economic and social cost of human trafficking for sexual exploitation in the UK was as much as £l billion in 2003. We are talking about huge sums of money, second only to arms dealing. We are talking also about great human suffering and misery, particularly for women and children.

As I said, I shall focus mainly on the trafficking of children in the UK. This includes for sexual exploitation, including pornography, and for domestic or other employment purposes. These children are sometimes prosecuted through no fault of their own.

I shall cite a couple of real-life situations that illustrate some of my concerns. In Doncaster, a 15 year-old Vietnamese boy was recently jailed for a year after pleading guilty to helping farm £85,000-worth of cannabis. He was found on the stairs of a house during a police raid. He had been trafficked via France with the promise of a job in a nail factory. He had been working since he was 12. His family wanted him to have a better life in Europe. He had been beaten and threatened. He had realised that he was involved in criminal activity only nine days before his arrest. The magistrates were obliged to give him a custodial sentence of 12 months. The sentence would normally have been three years but was mitigated due to his age and good conduct. The new European directive on human trafficking, which I shall discuss later, contains provisions on the prosecution of victims.

Another example is a girl of 13 who arrived in the UK from Africa. She was used as an unpaid domestic worker by a couple who knew her family. She was assaulted by the couple on numerous occasions. A member of the public noticed her unusual behaviour

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and clothing and spoke to her, but the child's story was not believed. She finally turned up at the offices of the local social services department for help. The investigation took a long time, but she was eventually taken into local authority care, with a designated social worker. She then found herself able to disclose the physical and sexual abuse that she had been subjected to. The couple who trafficked her have been prosecuted after a two-and-a-half-year investigation.

The report from the NSPCC and the University of Bedfordshire, Breaking the Wall of Silence, gives many such examples. I have met young people who have been trafficked and suffered abuse and who have had their passports-where there was a passport-taken from them. They have been prisoners, not allowed contact with the outside world. These young people often have no English and little education. There has been little support, except in enlightened cases, and inadequate accommodation.

There are provisions to tackle child trafficking in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. In 2008, the UK lifted its reservation on Article 22, thus entitling asylum-seeking children the same protection and access to services as other children. The Council of Europe convention of 2008 was the first international treaty to oblige states to adopt minimum standards to assist trafficked persons and protect their rights. Supplementary guidance has been issued to local authorities in England to promote early identification and partnership approaches to the protection of trafficked children. Guidance for safeguarding children at risk from sexual exploitation was revised and published in 2009. The Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009 places a duty on the UK Border Agency to make arrangements to safeguard and promote the welfare of children.

Much has been done. There is awareness of the need to protect vulnerable children, but problems remain. Early identification is difficult. Prevention measures are difficult. There are legal entanglements. There is a need for advocacy and key workers. There is a need for visionary co-ordination of services at a local level.

Barnardo's, which runs 22 services for children and young people at risk of sexual exploitation, found in its research that identification of child victims of trafficking is still very low. Authorities do not seem to have developed adequate procedures and guidelines to improve detection. Barnardo's found a general lack of awareness of child trafficking and its indicators among practitioners. It recommends more specialist services for such young people and the provision of a safe and trusted environment where they could disclose abuse and be helped. That would include safe accommodation.

ECPAT, an umbrella organisation on trafficking, is running, with the Body Shop, a campaign to promote effective guardianship of trafficked children. It has identified gaps in independent monitoring, inadequate legal advice and representation, and a lack of people to co-ordinate the agencies working with children and understand the wishes and needs of children. The agency Stop the Traffik has launched many campaigns, one in conjunction with Cadbury, Nestlé and Mars, to improve education about trafficking and local initiatives such as work with the police.

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Initiatives are happening. However, the Anti-Trafficking Monitoring Group report Wrong Kind of Victim? suggests that the UK's anti-trafficking measures are not fully compliant with the Council of the Europe convention of 2008 in relation to child trafficking in its obligations of protection and prosecution. That needs investigation along with the proposed European directive. Organisations working in the field of human trafficking need a firm and sympathetic lead from the Government to underline their efforts. How will the Government do that? Who will examine the different facets of trafficking?

There is still much to tackle. All the reports that I have read make a series of clear recommendations, none of which seems to be impossible to implement. Many simply mean a change of practice, such as assessments based on the best interests of the child, benefit of the doubt about issues such as age assessment, safeguarding by the provision of a dedicated key worker, systems to support the child, adequate accommodation-not distant and often unsafe bed and breakfast accommodation-the storing and sharing of information in local authorities and the use of the national referral mechanism to ensure that different forms of trafficking are considered and that cases can be identified at different stages. As someone said, trafficking is a process, not an event. Adequate time is needed to allow for counselling of young people under the age of 18 to disclose their circumstances if they are seeking asylum. The prosecution of child victims such as the example that I gave needs to be reassessed.

The coalition Government have indicated that they will not opt in to signing the proposed European directive on trafficking in human beings. Will the Government reconsider? I know that there has been confusion about the directive and between the meanings of the various conventions. Rather than getting into that confusion here, I suggest a meeting between Ministers, interested NGOs and parliamentarians to get total clarity on these directives and conventions. The organisation CARE points out that the European directive would add support to trafficked persons in relation to the non-prosecution of victims, assistance and support for victims such as in medicine or accommodation, special representatives in court for children, mandatory review of the results of anti-trafficking policies and assessment of trends.

This is not a party-political issue but an issue of moral imperative. I know that the Minister is sympathetic, but what will he and the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, do next? The problem of trafficking is complex, but we cannot stand by and see unaddressed inadequacies in our systems to convict perpetrators and protect victims. I look forward to the debate and the Minister's response. I beg to move.

11.50 am

Lord Luke: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, on securing this most important debate on human trafficking and on her wide-ranging speech. Given that it is one of the most ancient and lucrative criminal activities in the world, it is with the utmost urgency that we in the United Kingdom do our best to combat modern slavery. As the other place takes note of Anti-slavery Day today-I think that it is today-so do we with this timely debate. We in this

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country have a tremendous record in abolishing the slave trade and slavery in the early 19th century, so it was a proud moment for me as a Conservative Member of your Lordships' House to see the Anti-Slavery Day Bill passed into law before the general election this year. Anthony Steen's Private Member's Bill not only codifies recognition of our anti-slavery history, but also stimulates the general public to address this most significant issue.

As emphasised by the noble Baroness, the figures concerning this subject are appalling. More than 800,000 people are trafficked across borders every year. Furthermore, as she said, 12.3 million adults and children are in forced labour, bonded labour and forced prostitution worldwide. Human trafficking is tied with the illegal arms industry and is the second largest criminal industry in the world today-and, sadly, is also the fastest growing. Effective tackling of the global modern slavery trade would, of course, substantially diminish the $32 billion annual turnover for the traffickers. Would the Minister explain the Government's strategy at least to contain this enormous criminal industry, particularly in the field of traffickers of prostitutes aimed to take advantage of the 2012 Olympics and the large number of people coming over to watch that?

Human trafficking is not only of criminal benefit to traffickers but also a human disaster. One in six sexually exploited children and young people with whom Barnardo's is currently working appear to have been trafficked within the United Kingdom. The August 2010 report from the Association of Chief Police Officers on Project Acumen found that of 30,000 women involved in off-street prostitution, 17,000 were migrants. Through not fighting human trafficking effectively, we are destroying children's lives in the UK and fuelling our off-street sex trade. Can the Minister detail what the Government are doing to break the cycle of human trafficking to sexual slavery?

I mentioned the role of Barnardo's in caring for young people affected by human trafficking. This is just one of a number of righteous organisations working together to fight human trafficking. I must mention the Legatum Institute, which briefed me, and Stop the Traffik, which does great work in this field.

I hope that the Minister is able to explain how the Government intend to work with community organisations to combat modern-day slavery. The previous Government have left us with a terrible economic legacy, doubling the national debt and leaving us with the biggest deficit in the G20. Nevertheless, we should not allow this to exclude us from our crucial global role in counteracting this vile practice. Improving our response to modern-day slavery should not be excluded on cost grounds. We must improve our agencies and redouble our efforts not only to tackle organised international groups who profit from these crimes but to identify and protect victims. I look forward to the other speakers and of, course, to my noble friend's response to this very worthwhile and important debate.

11.55 am

Lord Avebury: My Lords, I, too, welcome the opportunity that the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, has afforded us of considering what has been done

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already to deal with the horrible crime of human trafficking and what still needs to be done. She made useful suggestions on that, and I agree with her wholeheartedly that it is wrong in principle to prosecute child victims of trafficking for minor offences such as having the wrong documents. I certainly hope that the noble Lord will give a favourable answer to the suggestion made by the noble Baroness that this offence be struck out, because it seems to me outrageous that children are spending time in custody when they had no other means of getting into the United Kingdom than the use of false documents, as many asylum seekers do.

I also welcome what the noble Baroness said about the European directive. I agree that it would be useful to have a meeting with the Minister to discuss the arguments that have been rehearsed in both Sub-Committee E and Sub-Committee F on what we should be doing about this directive. If it is possible for the noble Lord to say that he would agree to that meeting, I would be very grateful.

We have come a little way since the chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee in another place remarked, on producing his report of May 2008:

There has been a bit of an improvement since then, although we are still looking at the tip of the iceberg. The Select Committee said that on a conservative estimate, as has been mentioned, there were 5,000 victims of trafficking-of whom only a fraction have been identified-while the number of arrests as a result of the work of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre in 2009-10 reached a respectable total of 417. Yet there were only 73 convictions of traffickers in the latest three-year period for which figures are available.

One reason it has been so difficult to get convictions is that the prosecution has to prove double intent: first, that the offender was moving the victim across a national border and, secondly, doing so to exploit that person here in the United Kingdom. Because of this difficulty, the CPS often charges the trafficker with a lesser offence such as living off immoral earnings, which is easier to prove, but that sentence may be so short that the offender is out before the victim's immigration status has been determined. Does the Minister think it would be possible to expand the definition of the trafficking offence so that it was only necessary to prove that the victim was not lawfully in the UK, not that the accused had been concerned in unlawfully bringing the victim here?

The noble Lord, Lord Luke, mentioned Barnardo's, and I, too, pay tribute to its work. It published the very useful report, Whose child now?, on what is known about the practice of moving a child around the UK or from town to town for the purposes of sexual exploitation, a crime punishable by up to 14 years' imprisonment under Section 58 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. This crime is recognised as trafficking in the UK action plan and covered in the remit of the HTC. Since that penalty is the same for a child trafficked from another country, it gives the prosecution an alternative charge where it is easier to prove that the

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trafficker was responsible for the move within the UK, rather than for the original trafficking from overseas. Is the HTC building up a database of cases that can be referred to by the police and the CPS to help them decide what is the most appropriate charge?

In the Government's response to the sixth report of the Home Affairs Select Committee last August, they said that the HTC would continue to improve its role as a central point for the collection and analysis of data through its responsibility as the national referral mechanism. This process requires that a suspected victim of trafficking is referred to a competent authority for a decision on whether he has been correctly assessed, and the HTC not only provides the central co-ordination and expertise to combat trafficking but is also one of the two main agencies acting as a competent authority. It is dealing with a steadily increasing number of cases expeditiously and, of the 543 decisions in the year to 30 March 2010, two-thirds were accepted.

There does not appear to be an appeal procedure against a decision not to accept an individual as trafficked; the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but presumably that question will be dealt with in the course of an appeal against refusal of leave to remain. Alternatively, the refused victim may wish to return to his or her country of origin, and I would be grateful if the Minister would confirm that if the victim was under 18, he would get financial assistance from the IOM under their AVRFC scheme. Also, why should adult victims of trafficking not be eligible for the same benefits? Will the Minister give us any information about the fate of the 192 who were not accepted in the year to 31 March?

12.01 pm

Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for initiating such an important debate so close to Anti-slavery Day, which is next Monday. I also want to add to the congratulatory words of the noble Lord, Lord Luke, about Anthony Steen for the tremendous work that he did in combating human trafficking during a large part of the period that he spent as a Member of the other House. I declare an interest as co-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Human Trafficking and a trustee of the Human Trafficking Foundation.

We all have concerns, which have already been expressed, about the extent of human trafficking in the United Kingdom and the failures to deal effectively with it. The Metropolitan Police, however, have done some extremely good work, although police work across the country is patchy. I congratulate the Metropolitan Police on a recent operation in east London in conjunction with Redbridge Council on 12 October, where they removed 28 Roma children believed to be victims of a Roma gang of child traffickers. There are major Roma gangs working this country.

Trafficking, as noble Lords will know, is big business; your Lordships might be interested to know that it is worth as much, or nearly as much, as drug trafficking, and begging is more profitable than prostitution. My concerns are particularly about children and young people trafficked not only for prostitution but for begging and forced servitude, and the lack of sufficient help for these young people.

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I want to raise several issues for the Minister's consideration. First, I am concerned about the operation of the national referral mechanism, the NRM, set up in April 2009. Children who come illegally into the United Kingdom are often identified by safeguarding teams of local authorities or by the police as probably trafficked. They are then referred to the NRM, which makes a separate decision as to whether these young people are trafficked. Sometimes the NRM makes decisions without any input from the local authority or from the police. Between April 2009 and June 2010, 215 children, potential victims of trafficking, were referred to NRM. Twenty-eight were British, 187 from abroad. The largest single group, of 59, was from Vietnam, and the largest type was labour exploitation. In only 77 cases was it decided that the child or young person had been trafficked. Twenty-four were British and 53 were from outside the UK. Many children not accepted by the NRM as having been trafficked are considered by police to have been trafficked. It seems extraordinary that where the police consider a child or young person is likely to have been trafficked, the NRM none the less decides that they are not a victim. There also does not appear to be any appeal process against the NRM decision, which is leading to expensive and time-consuming applications for judicial review of those decisions.

I was told by a senior police officer this week that when some of these young people appeal to the immigration tribunal against refusal of asylum, police give evidence to the tribunal on behalf of some of them. I have concerns, therefore, about the training of those in the NRM who make these crucial decisions. I ask the Minister to look again at how the NRM is operating, the training of those who make the decisions, and whether weight should be given to the police and safeguarding committee's assessment that a young person has been trafficked. I also ask the Minister what level of support is being given to these 215 young people. Are the police investigating the cases and is there a crime report number for each child referred to the NRM?

The second matter is one that has been raised by several noble Lords: the prosecution of children and young people who are under the control of traffickers. There was a recent example when three Romanian women, two of them under the age of 18, were convicted and sentenced to prison in Manchester. They had a successful appeal last week. They had been forced by a violent gang into a brothel with other trafficked women and are now giving evidence against the traffickers. The UK Human Trafficking Centre and the Poppy Project both considered that the women were probably trafficked. The fact that they themselves were victims should have been established before the prosecution.

The largest group of such young people is made up of Vietnamese boys and girls. The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, gave us an example of a case in, I think, Doncaster. These young people are trafficked into this country for labour exploitation-that is, to look after cannabis farms. There are thousands of cannabis farms in private houses around the country, but why on earth are these children prosecuted? I understand that this is a matter for the Ministry of Justice. Will the Minister ask the Ministry of Justice to consider the matter?

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My third point is about support services for children. I, too, am concerned about the Government's decision not to opt in to the directive. The previous Government ought to be congratulated on extending the law on the definition of trafficking to labour exploitation, domestic servitude and forced begging, but these welcome improvements do not go far enough. The most important point that I have raised today is the lack of proper provision for looking after individual children who are found to have been trafficked. There is no special representative, as required by Article 14 of the directive. Various organisations may look after them at different times but there is no one person in charge. There are gaps in the system of care for these children. The Government really cannot say that the existing legislation and procedures are compliant with Article 14. Will the Government look at the pilot project that is just about to start, or has just started, in Scotland?

Finally, opting in to the directive would focus the Government's mind and show that the UK continues to be a leader in the excellent work that it does in catching and deterring the trafficking gangs. I ask the Government to look again at whether they really want to opt out of the directive.

12.08 pm

Lord McColl of Dulwich: My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, on securing this debate. As has been mentioned, the Home Office is reluctant to opt in to the proposed European directive because it says that it will make very little difference to the way that the UK tackles the problem. The Anti-Trafficking Monitoring Group published a paper in June 2010 suggesting that anti-trafficking practice in the United Kingdom is not compliant with key concepts relating to the rule of law itself and, specifically, relating to the principle-identified by the late Lord Bingham-that the question of legal right and liability should ordinarily be resolved by application of the law and not exercised on discretion. This principle seems to be routinely violated in the national referral mechanism, which the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has already mentioned. It is regrettable that in numerous cases the authorities concluded that as the person concerned agreed to come to work in the UK, they could not have been trafficked. However, agreement is often obtained from trafficked persons by means of coercion, threats or deceit, and for this reason, according to the convention, the issue of whether the victim consented is to be treated as irrelevant.

It is perhaps helpful to consider individual cases so that one can be clear about the difficulties of fighting trafficking. I draw your Lordships' attention to the case of a girl of 13, in Africa, who was trafficked and brought to London, where she was locked in a basement and suffered repeated rape as a child prostitute. After six years of this hell she was considered too old for the clients and so her trafficker released her and provided her with false documents. When she tried to leave the country using those documents she was arrested, convicted and served a 10-month prison sentence. All of us would agree that this is not justice, but, of course, the key question is how we educate and train the relevant organisations so that people on the front line recognise

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when the person they are dealing with may have been trafficked and respond appropriately. I believe that this is best achieved by opting in. I have received advice from interested parties who believe that, contrary to the Home Office's view, the proposed directive contains greater protection for the victim of trafficking than is afforded under existing law.

If, as the Home Office believes, the proposed directive merely does what the present law requires, there can be no harm in agreeing to it. If, on the other hand, our present law provides less protection, that is a very good reason for opting in. An example of extra protection is Article 7, which proposes the possibility of not prosecuting a victim who has committed an offence as a direct consequence of being subject to trafficking. Of course, the victim would still have to prove that he or she had been trafficked. This would improve the present system under which the trafficked victim can be subjected to the further trauma and stigma of a criminal trial, albeit that the penalty or punishment may take into account the circumstances. It would be much better by far that no trial should take place if the trafficked person can prove that she or he is trafficked.

In summary, the proposed directive would build on rather than replicate existing legislation. It is quite clear that the number of criminal proceedings and the number of victims who are assisted remain very low compared with the enormity of the problem of human trafficking. The directive will streamline law enforcement efforts in cross-border cases and may well reduce costs. Provisions that decriminalise victims are urgently required, especially as many victims in the UK continue to be criminalised for offences committed while being deceived or coerced, yet the traffickers often evade criminal responsibility. We must protect victims before, during and after criminal proceedings, especially the children. This is essential to increase prosecution rates and prevent secondary victimisation through this process. The appointment of a rapporteur or independent body should ensure that shortfalls in the system are properly identified.

Trafficking is a cross-border activity often masterminded by sophisticated criminals. If one can agree a unified system of law to fight this evil trade, it will facilitate co-operation between the relevant enforcement agencies in the countries involved. The proposed directive affords us a chance to agree a unified system and we should take it. The directive would result in a very important change in our law so that rather than putting vulnerable trafficked people through the further trauma of prosecution, such people are treated as victims and neither prosecuted nor awarded penalties.

The unpleasant truth is that human trafficking in England is a big problem and a lucrative trade, as others have mentioned. The proposed directive would improve the rights of victims and ensure a co-ordinated approach with our European partners. We should not turn our backs on this opportunity. There has been some good news in that Professor Trevor Beedham, of the Worshipful Society of Apothecaries, has established a diploma to instruct those involved in this whole business on how they should deal with the victims. That is a welcome development.

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12.15 pm

Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for initiating this very important debate on the horrific subject of trafficking women and girls. While trafficking is not a new phenomenon, its magnitude, form and impact have become more alarming and devastating. As my noble friend said, trafficking is modern-day slavery.

The Project Acumen research, to which the noble Lord, Lord Luke, referred, also identified that a minimum of 2,600 victims were sex-trafficked into England and Wales during the 12-month period of the research, but given that trafficking is intrinsically linked to constant movement-women being moved from place to place on a weekly basis-this snapshot cannot give a complete picture. I am sure that the figure is much higher.

Other noble Lords have talked a lot about prosecutions. I want to talk a little about prevention. The Olympics and Paralympics are the greatest sporting events in the world, but there is ample evidence to show that trafficking of women increases when large sporting events are held. For instance, according to the Greek Ministry of Public Safety, there had been a 95 per cent increase in the number of identified human trafficking victims during the 2004 Athens Olympics. Following those Games, a Russian teenage Olympian was trafficked to the Canary Islands and was only found by the police three years later. At the 2006 FIFA World Cup in Germany, there was not as much trafficking as might have been expected, but despite careful planning by the German authorities there was evidence of criminal networks trafficking across Europe. There was similar evidence from the Winter Olympics in Vancouver, and in South Africa this year there is evidence of trafficked women being transported across the continent in time for those games. This evidence cannot be ignored.

Britain is a Mecca for the extremely profitable industry of human trafficking and, of course, the coming Olympics are an opportunity for a very lucrative trade. There is also the increased ability to facilitate entry of trafficked women as visitors to the Olympics. What training is being given to staff at points of entry about trafficking during the build-up to the Olympics? I am referring not only to airports and sea ports, but St Pancras station, which is important. There is already evidence in east London in particular of increased applications for massage parlours, saunas and strip clubs. A survey of the London sex industry carried out in 2008 showed that four out of five massage parlours and saunas offered sexual acts on site. Because of this, the organisation of which I was chair, the Women's National Commission-which I am sorry to say has been purged today-set up a working group alongside the Home Office and the Metropolitan Police to help to co-ordinate their work on reducing the level of trafficking of women up to and during the Games and on looking at the services which could be offered as a consequence of prostitution, abuse and sexual assault. This work can no longer be carried on. Do the Government have an overall plan for bringing together and co-ordinating the work that is being carried out by many organisations on the different aspects of this issue during the build-up to the Olympic Games?

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Like the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I congratulate the Metropolitan Police, with which we have been working, on its continuing efforts to try to do something about trafficking across the five boroughs that are particularly involved. There needs to be a holistic, multi-agency approach, and that is the Government???s responsibility. I hope that the Minister can answer this in some detail and that he can say whether the Government intend to continue with the UK action plan initiated by the previous Government.

My final point to the Minister has been raised by every speaker so far. It concerns the Government's refusal to opt in to the directive. I support those who are asking for a meeting. Refusing to opt in to the directive is one of the most serious things that the Government have done. I am trying to be gracious about this. The Government have said that they are committed to human rights. Nothing violates women's human rights more than trafficking for the sex industry, which is what is happening. Every effort should be made to ensure that their human rights are safeguarded. That means opting in to the directive. Doing otherwise raises doubts, and one starts to question the Government's commitment to human rights. I hope that we can have a meeting and thrash it out, and that the Government will change their mind.

In conclusion, and to revert to the 2012 Games, it would be a tragedy if the UK were added to the list of countries where trafficking was a focus of the Games. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell me that that will not be so.

12.21 pm

Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I am pleased to join this debate with a brief intervention and to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for initiating it. We have all spoken with the same intent, including the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, and my noble friend Avebury. I am glad to call my noble friend Lord McColl, "my noble friend"; I could not say that of every Member on these Benches. It is wonderful to say how much I agree with so much of what he said this afternoon.

The directive is designed to prevent slavery for sexual purposes of people trafficked into the United Kingdom. It includes a common Europe-wide definition of the crime of trafficking, to make it easier to convict offenders across the European Union. Co-ordinated action is vital, especially as many of the offenders are from new member states of the EU. As the EU might expand its borders again, there are predictions that the situation could get even more serious. I just do not know why we would opt out of the directive.

The directive is a very useful provision, to which the United Kingdom should be party. We cannot veto it, but we can opt out. What is the message to the rest of the world and other members of the EU if we opt out? It is that we are again the Johnnys-come-lately of Europe, as we have been on so many occasions. We missed the boat at the setting-up of the European Economic Community. We dragged our heels, and went in when the agenda had already been drawn up by those who were already members. We dragged our feet on the common agricultural policy. Because we

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were late going in, the regulations were already there, in favour of the members who were already on the inside.

On this occasion, at least, let us say that we will be at the heart of a humanitarian vision in Europe, which is where we should be. We should be making the European Union the leading agent of humanitarian causes in the whole world. We can make that contribution.

In conclusion, our record on the adoption of European directives has been laudable. We have adopted most of them. On this occasion, however, as my noble friend Lord McColl has said, if, as the Government say, what is in the directive is already covered in our laws, what objection can there be to our opting in to the directive? I ask my colleagues and others to give it their wholehearted support.

12.24 pm

Lord Bew: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for securing this important debate. She has performed a great service to the House. I speak somewhat reluctantly. Three years ago, when I first came to the House, the view in Northern Ireland was that there simply was no problem with human trafficking. The Police Service of Northern Ireland said that there were no signs of it in society. The then Minister, Paul Goggins, who had responsibility for the matter and who was very diligent, claimed that there was no clear evidence of human trafficking. When the UK-wide anti-trafficking initiative, Operation Pentameter, was launched in 2007, it was again thought that there was no sign of human trafficking in Northern Ireland.

One could take some comfort from this from a Northern Irish point of view. One might say that the prevalence in Northern Irish society of stronger forms of religious morality than in the rest of the United Kingdom may have played a role. Less charming is the fact that in Northern Ireland the paramilitaries often control prostitution and therefore it would be difficult for outsiders to break in. For whatever combination of charming and less charming reasons, it appeared that Northern Ireland did not have this problem.

However, things have changed dramatically and sadly during the course of this year. The assistant chief constable, Drew Harris, has issued a statement saying that the police have now recovered dozens of individuals whom they suspect have been trafficked for the purposes of prostitution or domestic servitude or to work in some form of business. The assistant chief constable's statement continues:

"After we carry out operations and raid places, neighbours say that they wondered why lots of men were coming and going to and from the premises at all times of the night and day".

In June of this year, Northern Ireland's Minister for Justice, David Ford, again said that anti-racketeering officials had rescued dozens of victims of trafficking in Northern Ireland. He said that human trafficking is nothing less than modern-day slavery.

In this respect, the Northern Ireland Assembly's work has been good and strong. In June of this year, the Public Accounts Committee also issued a statement to the effect that it now acknowledged that there was a serious problem; and in September, talks were held with the relevant minister in the Republic of Ireland,

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Dermot Ahern, Kenny MacAskill, the relevant Scottish Minister, and David Ford, the Minister for Justice in Northern Ireland, in order to co-ordinate policy. After this meeting, Mr Ford admitted that Northern Ireland was a staging post for human traffickers operating between Scotland and the Republic. This followed the arrest of a Scotland-based group, which was alleged to have been involved in forced trafficking and to have had a large budget for advertising sexual services in the local press. The sophistication of the operation was remarkable.

The Minister who replies at the end of the debate has no responsibility for the matters that I have just raised; they are devolved matters. In this respect, I am happy to say that the Northern Ireland devolved authorities are taking the matter seriously. Other noble Lords have raised the issue of the European directive and our compliance with it. My own view was that the Government had a reasonable case. However, while listening to the speeches this morning, in particular those of the noble Lords, Lord McColl and Lord Roberts, with their emphasis on the significance of the European directive with respect to the cross-border dimensions of the problem, I began to wonder whether the Government's case was as strong or as reasonable as I thought it was yesterday.

Even more profound than the question of the European directive is that of our values. Precisely because we are at a moment of economic crisis in the United Kingdom, the decisions and tone of government must reflect a sense of what it is to be a civilised society. This is even more important now. Therefore, I ask the Minister, at the end of the debate, to address the seriousness of the moral issue.

12.29 pm

Lord Sheikh: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for securing this debate. Human trafficking is probably the world's third largest illegal trade.

I have raised the issue of human trafficking on a number of occasions in your Lordships' House, as it is a topic about which I feel strongly. This abhorrent practice is equivalent to modern-day slavery. Victims of trafficking are lured from their native countries with promises of greater opportunities in a foreign land. They are then traded by ruthless gangmasters like commodities. I make no distinction between those who engage in human trafficking and the slave masters of past years.

Women and children tend to be the main targets of the predatory gangs who engage in this immoral trade. I care about issues relating to women and children. I very recently attended the sixth Asia-Europe Parliamentary Partnership meeting in Brussels as a delegate of the British Parliament. At the meeting, which was attended by parliamentarians of 22 countries, I initiated discussions concerning the protection of females and children. I successfully tabled the following amendment, which was included in the final declaration:

"We stress the need to give priority to gender equality and empowerment of women. There must be progress on the reduction of maternal mortality and improving maternal and reproductive health. We totally condemn the awful practice of abuse of women and children as a weapon of war to instil fear amongst opposing sides in war-torn areas".

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The Association of Chief Police Officers released a publication in August that implied that 17,000 of the estimated 30,000 women who engage in off-street prostitution were migrants. More startling is the fact that 2,600 of these women are thought to have been victims of trafficking. I am pleased that such victims are given a 45-day reflection period, along with the option of temporary accommodation. However, a number of organisations have indicated that that might be insufficient. What plans do the Government have to ensure that victims of human trafficking are given adequate assistance to rebuild their lives?

I welcome statutory guidance to support collaboration across government agencies in areas such as finding suitable accommodation for child-trafficking victims. Reports suggest that a growing number of children are being trafficked into Britain to work in domestic cannabis factories. A study by the Association of Chief Police Officers reveals that child exploitation for the purposes of cannabis production has increased in recent years. Last year, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre published a threat assessment of child trafficking, which revealed that Vietnam was the country of origin for a number of children trafficked to work in cannabis factories. I should be grateful if the Minister could inform your Lordships' House of the steps that Her Majesty's Government are taking as part of co-ordinated action with the Vietnamese Government to tackle this worrying trend.

I welcome the announcement by the Home Secretary of the new National Crime Agency. This new organisation will make it easier for police forces to collaborate on national issues, and it will tackle organised crime while protecting our borders. I also look forward to learning the contents of the imminent national plan on trafficking.

I support the increased efforts, announced by the Government, to detect and rescue victims of trafficking by allowing border officials to conduct separate interviews at all airports for women and children travelling with an adult who is not a parent, guardian or husband. I am also in favour of efforts by the Royal Navy, as part of the Africa Partnership Station initiative, to strengthen maritime safety and security in the western and central parts of the continent by training the Nigerian naval forces to police their waters effectively.

I am proud that the United Kingdom has ratified the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings. We must work closely and successfully with our European partners to combat this evil practice.

I welcome the United Nations global plan of action against trafficking in persons, as it calls for a common approach to combat this practice that is co-ordinated and consistent across continents. I particularly welcome the creation of a United Nations voluntary trust fund for victims of trafficking, where the task will be to protect the vulnerable while supporting the physical and psychological recovery of victims. I am committed to seeing all forms of human trafficking eradicated. The exploitation of people is horrific and cannot be tolerated in any society.

I was born and brought up in Africa, a continent that has been ravaged by slavery. It is where great men such as General Gordon and Dr Livingstone lived and

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died-people who passionately believed in abolishing slavery. I have great admiration for Dr Livingstone, and with my father visited Ujiji, on the shores of Lake Tanganyika, where HM Stanley first met Dr Livingstone.

As a nation, we have a proud history of defending the rights of those who have been oppressed. We must make every effort to deal with the plight of the many individuals who have the misfortune of falling victim to this shameful practice.

12.36 pm

Lord Dubs: My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Massey on having made this debate possible. I want to say a little about the nature of the problem and what can be done about it and to refer briefly, as others have, to trafficked children.

It is important to distinguish between people smuggling and people trafficking. The better an understanding we have of the problem, the better we can tackle it. Smuggling is clearly an activity where the person being smuggled wants to be smuggled, whereas trafficking involves force, violence, deception, intimidation and perhaps coercion. Indeed, a person might start their journey to this country being smuggled and then be trafficked on arrival, so it is quite a complicated problem.

The figures are very hard to come by. We are probably dealing with the tip of an iceberg when we talk about, say, 5,000 people trafficked into this country. Estimates are hard to get. It is clear that the majority of the victims are women and children and it is clear that it is an extremely lucrative activity for those engaged in it. The Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings came into force in April 2009 and it helped by including provisions to identify victims and to bring more cases to court.

Child trafficking is the most appalling aspect of the whole issue that we are debating. It has already been said that it includes exploitation in terms of domestic servitude, helping with cannabis farms, street crime and pickpocketing. It also includes sexual exploitation, child abuse, benefit fraud, illegal adoption and even forced marriage.

UNICEF has put out some positive statements. It says clearly that the victims of trafficking should not be punished for illegal entry or stay in the European Union or for forced involvement in illegal activities, but that, as victims, they are entitled to protection, assistance and compensation. That should surely be the basis on which we approach these unfortunate people. As regards children, it is absolutely clear that the needs of the child must come first and that any intervention should be based primarily not on concerns about immigration status but on the needs of the child and what can be done to secure his or her well-being.

I understand from various figures that about half the people trafficked into western and central Europe come from the Balkans or former Soviet Union countries, although I also understand that a disproportionately large number of children may be coming from Vietnam. I was in Moldova a year or so ago, where I met people from a number of NGOs. They were all concerned about trafficking-either about informing and warning local people of the dangers of trafficking or about helping those who had been returned. Very few people

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from Moldova are trafficked to the UK but it is clear that, as a country, we need to provide more support for NGOs and other bodies in the source countries to help them in preventive work and in securing the safe return and well-being of those who have been removed from western countries.

I have seen an estimate that one in seven sex workers has been forced into prostitution through trafficking, although that is a lower figure than was bandied about in the debates in this House a year or two ago. Nevertheless, it is an important issue and one that we should bear in mind.

Last June, the Home Affairs Select Committee produced a report and I want to refer to some of its recommendations and to other recommendations. The first key point is to increase public awareness, as the issue is known about by too few people and is only occasionally mentioned in the newspapers. Greater public awareness would lead to greater detection.

As has been said, there is a need to train all public officials who might come into contact with people where there are indications that they have been trafficked-for example, workers in the health service, social workers and even building inspectors and health and safety inspectors. We need to look closely at some industrial sectors where there must be a suspicion that a large number of trafficked people work, such as the construction industry, although that is probably an area less relevant to women. I believe that immigration authorities should issue sanctions against the employers of unregistered workers as a disincentive to exploitation, rather than having the burden fall heavily on those whom we should regard as victims.

Returning again to children, I have read that one difficulty with children is getting good interpreters. It is no good just getting someone who speaks their language, as sometimes an interpreter might not be on the side of the child. A sensitive approach is required. A social worker should be allocated to each child or young person where there is a suspicion that that child has been trafficked in order to provide support. Bed and breakfast accommodations are not suitable in that situation and one needs to provide far more support.

We have a responsibility to deal with this matter in this country but, as everyone has said, it is an international problem, which is why we must regret that the Government have not yet gone along with the EU directive. I hope that they will do so and that they will accept that we need to co-operate with other countries in dealing with the problems at source and support those countries that are trying to prevent their own citizens from being trafficked to the West.

12.40 pm

Baroness Benjamin: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for securing this timely and important debate. I feel that the noble Baroness and I are kindred spirits, as we both work to promote the well-being of children. I agree with everything that she said in her introduction, as I do with everything that has been said so far in the debate.

I suppose that I should declare an interest in this debate, as my ancestors were enslaved people. Millions of Africans were taken from their villages, kidnapped, shackled, sold and transported to distant lands to toil

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and labour for the financial benefit of others. Many were murdered if they tried to escape. Men, women and children had to be strong to survive the beatings and abuse, stripped of their names, their culture and their dignity. Thankfully, hundreds of activists motivated the population to stand up against slavery and 200 years ago the Abolition of Slavery Act was passed and this horrific trade in African life was halted, bringing to an end a trade that involved most European countries. Yet here we are in the 21st century, taking part in a debate on human trafficking-slavery-which involves not just those very same European countries but almost every continent.

Slavery still exists; only its face has changed. Its victims are enduring the same indignities and horrors as my ancestors. I know that noble Lords will agree with me when I say that the trade in human beings is a foul and evil practice, which can be stopped only if society and government act. Like those brave activists in the past, we have to do whatever we can to bring an end to this barbaric trade. We must educate the public to be vigilant, to be aware and not to ignore the signs around them: children begging in the streets, Fagin-like characters often managed by sinister adults; houses in suburban streets frequented by numerous men; and sweatshops and backstreet factories. Let us not ignore these blatant signals for fear of getting involved.

Like many of the problems in our wounded, materialistic world, there is no simple solution. Only an attack from all sides will have any effect. One of the strongest weapons that we have at our disposal is education and some of the strongest educational weapons that we have, which the anti-slavery activists did not have, are film, television and the internet, which can be used for good. Today, these weapons allow us to highlight and to bring to the attention of everyone in the global society in which we live the problem of human trafficking, which takes place all over the world and in some of the most unexpected places. I am proud that the media industry, to which I have devoted the past 40 years of my life, can make a difference-and television the most.

The television series of the book Roots had a profound effect on me 33 years ago, as it told the story of my ancestors and their journey through enslavement. But in the past 10 years or so, many shocking, hard-hitting films and television programmes have been made, dramatically increasing public awareness of the modern trade in human beings. The most recent was "I Am Slave", which was shown on Channel 4, a true story about a 12 year-old girl, kidnapped from her village in Sudan, who ended up as a domestic slave, right here in London, chained, beaten and abused. I wept when I watched that programme, for that was someone's child, someone's daughter, someone's sister. It is said that over 5,000 more like her are working behind closed doors here in the UK. That is shameful and something has to be done about it.

Another film that illustrates the horror of human behaviour is "Trafficked", a haunting and chillingly shocking film about the sex trade in Ireland. It gives a graphic insight into what is happening when we are tucked up safely in our secure comfy beds. The beds that those victims lie in are far from safe and cosy.

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More and more people are being inspired by documentaries, films and newspaper articles to become proactive, such as the young musician whom I head about just recently, who saw the documentary "The Journey" and recorded a CD to tell the story of young women sold into sex slavery and continually moved across borders. He did so because he felt compelled to do something to raise awareness. I believe that, in order to engage more people like him, we should encourage the media to search out stories that highlight the evil trade in human beings.

In centuries past, slavery was out in the open and was more visible, but now it is in the shadows. In many ways, society is unwittingly feeding it by demanding cheap labour, by buying cheap products and by visiting brothels. If the men who use those brothels thought for a moment, they might become aware that the young girl with whom they are having sex-perhaps the same age as their own daughter-is a victim of human traffickers.

Eradication of human trafficking has to be given the highest priority by all Governments. It has to be tackled on an international scale because it is an international problem. We must remain constantly alert and on guard, because, sadly, evil is a human condition, which only a powerful sense of morality, honesty and spiritual good can overcome. Some may think that slavery has been consigned to the dustbin of history, but how wrong they are. Slavery and human trafficking are alive and kicking; they are still here on our doorsteps and they are gaining strength. So for the sake of my ancestors and my descendants, let us bring an end to human trafficking. Together let us go into battle and fight it with all our hearts, or this wicked, evil trade will continue to be a shameful stain on humanity.

12.49 pm

Lord Laming: My Lords, I, too, add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, on initiating this important debate. The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, is right to draw a distinction between smuggling and trafficking but, sadly for the victim, the end result is often the same. I say that because if I were to ask each one of us to think about where we were on, say, the evening of 28 October 1998, I suspect that we would struggle to think back. Had Victoria Climbié lived-and she certainly should have lived-she would have been able to say that that was probably one of the most significant dates in her life.

Victoria then lived with her parents and siblings in a small community in the Ivory Coast. She was then eight years old. She was very intelligent and energetic-a very lively child-and her parents worked extremely hard to get her into a local school, where the head teacher judged her to be one of the brightest students whom he had taught. On that October evening, a great aunt visited them. Although from the Ivory Coast, she was in fact a French citizen and she was on her way back to Paris. She pressed Victoria's parents to allow her to take Victoria back to Paris with her so that she could provide her with a better education and greater life opportunities. A combination of Victoria's excitement and the numerous reassurances that the parents were given helped to overcome their understandable hesitation and Victoria left with her aunt the following morning.

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What the parents could not have known was that the aunt had earlier persuaded the French authorities that she had a daughter in the Ivory Coast and that she had arranged there for that mythical daughter to be registered on her passport. Of course, she did not have a daughter; she had instead selected a girl called Anna for that purpose. Alas, at a very late stage, the arrangements to get Anna back to Paris fell through, so in desperation she put great pressure on Victoria's parents. Before the aunt and Victoria boarded the flight back to Paris, Victoria had her head shaved and the aunt acquired a wig in order to pass her off as Anna. Victoria was told that from now on she was not Victoria Climbié but Anna Kouao.

Once the two had established themselves in Paris, the French authorities began to ask questions about Anna because they were concerned about her welfare. Kouao did not welcome those questions and her response was quickly to move to London. Once in London, she presented herself and Anna as a homeless family. As in France, the presence of a young child meant that the authorities sought to help with accommodation and financial benefits.

I mention all this because what followed in respect of that child should give us all deep concern about the dangers of what can happen to trafficked children in our country. In the following 10 months, Anna was known to no fewer than four different social services departments, three housing departments and two specialist police child protection teams. Moreover, she was admitted to two different hospitals, because the staff in accident and emergency suspected that she was being deliberately harmed, and she was referred to a specialist children's centre managed by the NSPCC. Yet despite the involvement of all those key agencies and literally hundreds of staff, Anna was never registered at school and never attended school for one day in those 10 months. Worst of all, nobody asked what a day was like for her in her life.

We need not dwell on the appalling suffering that Anna experienced or her terrible death. Suffice it to say that it was only after she died that the police did some remarkable work and discovered that she was not Anna Kouao but Victoria Climbié and that she was not a French citizen but had parents in the Ivory Coast.

I mention this only because, as we all recognise, millions of children cross international borders every day and it would be terribly naive of any of us to think that within that number there is not a high proportion of children who are potentially seriously at risk. The challenge for us is to ensure that those children who are at risk are recognised and identified and that steps are taken quickly to protect them.

What we do not know is how many children come to this country to meet someone at an airport or a port purporting to be their parent who is not their parent, how many young adults are made to look like children or how many young people have been brought to this country having been promised a wonderful future only then to experience the most ugly and destructive aspects of human behaviour. It is impossible to get accurate figures, but precisely because of that we should do everything to work together across national and

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international boundaries to ensure that we identify and protect children and young people who are subject to some of the most appalling things.

I hope that the Government will give further thought to opting in to the EU directive.

12.56 pm

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lady Massey on her timely and moving speech on human trafficking-or modern slavery, as my noble friend Lady Gould described it. I pay tribute to all the other speakers in our debate, which has raised some very important questions for the Government to answer. The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, gave us a very clear wake-up call.

The scale of the problem has been the subject of some debate both today and among a number of the relevant organisations. I accept the point made by my noble friend Lady Massey about the difficulty of obtaining statistics which can be deemed to be accurate, but there seems to be a consensus that we could be talking about as many as 12 million adults and children in forced labour, bonded labour and forced prostitution. Behind those statistics is a huge scale of human misery.

In the UK, in 2008-09, the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee found real challenges in estimating the numbers and, in the end, settled for more than 5,000 victims, while the EU estimates that between 100,000 and 800,000 people are trafficked into the EU every year. Those statistics are an interesting contrast with the number of prosecutions in both this country and other countries. In 2007-08, there were 87 prosecutions for trafficking. In 2008-09, there were 114 prosecutions. There were 18 convictions in 2007, 38 in 2008 and 35 in 2009. I understand that a further 35 cases are currently progressing through the criminal justice system. That shows some progress, but there is a long way to go. I echo the congratulations given by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, to the Metropolitan Police but, as she suggests, other forces need to learn some of the lessons that the Met has learnt in developing their own programmes.

The contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Laming, was very apposite when he reminded us of the tragedy of Victoria Climbié. As I recall, the work that he and others did identified overwhelming failures of professional practice and the failure of professionals in different agencies to communicate and share information. I must say that the announcement by the Government of the abolition of ContactPoint is quite extraordinary in that context. I ask the Minister to explain to me why the Government really consider that necessary when the whole point of that initiative is to ensure that information is shared. Surely the lesson of Victoria Climbié is that had information been shared by those agencies, she might well be alive today.

I am proud of what the previous Government did in relation to this difficult issue. The UK action plan was published in March 2007. The United Kingdom Human Trafficking Centre was established. We signed the Council of Europe's Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings. The focus was widened to tackle issues such as forced labour and child trafficking. Since 2003, there have been specific anti-trafficking

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laws in force in the UK, including the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the Asylum and Immigration Act (Treatment of Claimants, etc) 2004. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, the national referral mechanism was set up following implementation of ECPAT in April 2009. The Poppy Project was set up to provide accommodation and support for women who have been trafficked into prostitution and has 54 bed spaces in houses nationally.

I am proud of what was achieved, but I fully accept that there is much more to do. My noble friend Lord Dubs referred to the Home Affairs Select Committee report and its recommendations for making improvements in the services available and the co-ordination that is necessary. I was very taken by what he said about the need to improve preventive measures through increasing public awareness and the need to train a variety of public officers about the indicators of forced labour so that they can identify it and help victims to find help. There is concern that the identification system is geared towards viewing trafficking as an immigration crime, coupling it with facilitation or people smuggling, which are completely different. Those are interesting matters that need to be considered very carefully.

In relation to the UK national referral mechanism, there has been concern about the training of the staff involved and the fact that more emphasis is placed on the immigration status of presumed trafficked persons rather than on the alleged crime against them. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, put some very pertinent questions to the Minister, and I hope that he will be able to respond to them. It is worth making the point that this problem was also referred to by the US State Department in its 2010 report which stated that although the UK fully complies with minimum standards, the Government need to take greater steps to ensure victims are not penalised for unlawful acts. My noble friend Lady Massey and the noble Lord, Lord McColl, gave some positive and powerful illustrations of what can go wrong.

We then come to the Government's policy. Mr Damian Green, the Immigration Minister, said that combating human trafficking is a key priority and that the Government are committed to identifying and protecting victims. I welcome that statement as a broad principle, but there are a number of questions that the Minister needs to answer. I shall raise three: on the directive, support for victims and the resources and effort available for education and prevention, which were raised by my noble friend Lady Gould.

This country played a pivotal role in the development of the trafficking directive. It contains a number of very important provisions. I still do not understand why the Government have decided to opt out. Theresa May told the House of Commons on 6 September that she saw no benefit to the UK because most of the provisions have already been acted upon in the UK. The Home Office said that the directive will make little difference to the way the UK tackles the problem. Surely that misses the point. Apart from the point put by the noble Lord, Lord McColl-that briefing that we have received suggests that that is not entirely accurate because the directive goes further than our existing-it seems to me to be an incredibly crass

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decision. We played a key role in getting this directive drafted, and we want other countries to implement the proposed directive, so how can we seriously expect those countries to do so if we are not prepared to ratify it? I do not understand the reason that the Government have given. The logic of the analysis by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, was unanswerable. I am sorry to suspect that hostility to Europe led the Government down that path. I hope the Government will reconsider. Perhaps the Minister has some good news for us today. At the least, I hope that he will take up the invitation by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and others to convene a meeting of noble Lords interested in this area.

I shall make two other points. I think that the Minister will not commit himself on resources before the 20th of this month, but I hope that he will seek to protect the services currently available. I also hope that when it comes to prevention and education he will listen very carefully to the comments of my noble friends Lord Dubs and Lady Gould about the need to strengthen preventive programmes now and in the context, as my noble friend said, of the Olympic Games when, as she said, we might expect to see a major increase in trafficking activity. This is a very important debate, and I hope that the Government will be able to respond constructively.

1.07 pm

Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, on securing this debate on this very important topic. I know that she has a long-standing interest in this area and, in particular, in the welfare of children and young people. The debate has been very interesting. I am grateful to all noble Lords for their helpful contributions on how to improve our efforts against trafficking. This is a matter on which I know there is much cross-party interest, and think I can go so far as to say agreement. The prominence of this topic is reflected in the fact that there are no fewer than three debates in Parliament on this issue this week, as we approach Anti-Slavery Day on Monday, which is intended to raise awareness of trafficking as modern-day slavery. My noble friend Lady Benjamin underlined that point in her passionate and eloquent speech.

I assure your Lordships that this Government take their responsibilities to combat these frankly disgusting crimes very seriously. The noble Lords, Lord Dubs and Lord Laming, drew our attention to the important distinction between smuggling and trafficking, and they are right. Today we are debating trafficking, although as the noble Lord, Lord Laming said, there is crossover between the two. He also took us harrowingly through Victoria Climbié's experiences, which are still so vivid in our memories, and emphasised the importance of our urgent attention to this subject.

A major element of concern voiced by noble Lords today has been the decision not to opt in to the EU directive. I would be grateful if noble Lords would allow me to attempt to deal with that as comprehensively as I can later on.

First, as regards our overall approach, there can be no doubt that human trafficking of children and adults, whether for forced labour, prostitution, domestic

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servitude or any purpose, are appalling crimes in which people today are treated as commodities and exploited for profit. The Government take a comprehensive approach combining a determination to tackle the criminals behind the trade with a commitment to supporting victims. This approach is designed to provide the framework in which we can ensure the necessary joined-up activities. Through work across government with law enforcement agencies, including the police, the Serious Organised Crime Agency and the UK Border Agency, and in conjunction with the voluntary sector, which plays such an important role in the care of victims, we must, and I believe we will, make substantial further strides towards tackling this menace.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and my noble friend Lady Benjamin, mentioned the need for public awareness, and their comments are well taken. I should also like to pay tribute to the several wonderful charities working in this area. Noble Lords have mentioned several and there are many more, all of which have highly dedicated people who are doing marvellous work. The Government recognise, and are grateful for, the huge benefits that they bring.

On enforcement, we already have legislation in place which outlaws trafficking and makes it an offence to pay for sexual services with someone who has been subject to exploitative conduct. This is backed by a robust policing and wider law enforcement response. My noble friend Lord McColl referred to what Sweden is doing and I can assure him that we are watching what is happening there, as in all member states, closely. Improving our knowledge and understanding of the problem is a key component to ensuring that our response is effective.

As my noble friend Lord Luke said, in August, the Association of Chief Police Officers produced a new study on the nature and scale of trafficking for sexual exploitation in England and Wales. It found that there are approximately 17,000 migrant sex workers in what is termed the "off-street" sector. Of these, at least 2,600 are trafficked and a further 9,600 migrant sex workers are vulnerable, which means that they have elements of vulnerability to trafficking. But most are likely to fall short of the trafficking threshold, which is the term for a combination of indicators, perhaps the most important of which is that the individual is being exploited. These figures and others quoted by noble Lords show why effective enforcement action is so vital.

Police forces are supported in this work by the United Kingdom Human Trafficking Centre, which plays a key role in providing operational co-ordination and advice to forces, including through its 24-hour tactical advice line. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, expressed concerns about the ability of the border police to stop trafficking at the border, emphasising the need to maintain enforcement activity across the whole country. That is part of the reason why the Government are committed to establishing the National Crime Agency, which will include the border police and is specifically committed to tackling organised crime.

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The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the situation in Northern Ireland. That trafficking is taken seriously there is perhaps demonstrated by the fact that, as I think he said, the Northern Ireland Assembly passed a Private Member's Motion in September condemning the crime. The PSNI is active with other law enforcement agencies to recover victims and to secure convictions. Recently, it co-ordinated a UK-wide operation, which saw 15 potential victims of human trafficking recovered across the UK. It is as keen as anyone to make progress.

Within London, the Metropolitan Police Service has established the Human Exploitation and Organised Crime Unit within the Specialist Crime Directorate to lead on combating human trafficking gangs in London, particularly-I think that my noble friend Lord Luke and the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, asked about this-in the five Olympic boroughs during the build up to the London 2012 Games. The activities of the Metropolitan Police in those boroughs provide an outstanding example of the very determined work that they are undertaking to ensure that the Games are not plagued by such crime and that those who seek to force women into prostitution will be met with the full force of the law.

My noble friend Lord Avebury asked, among other things, whether the UKHTC maintains a database of cases that can be referred to by the police and the CPS to help them to decide on the most appropriate charge. From 1 April 2010, all cases of human trafficking have been flagged electronically on the CPS case management system. These data are passed to the UKHTC on a regular basis to inform joint analysis. CPS electronic monitoring enables the capture of those cases where charges were changed following the first hearing or where trafficking cases proceeded on an offence other than trafficking. This will assist in identifying whether victims are dropping out of criminal proceedings or not supporting prosecutions. It will also provide indicators of any gaps in existing legislation that inhibit ability to bring a successful prosecution.

Care for victims was emphasised by many noble Lords. Ensuring that victims receive the protection they need and deserve is vital to our overall efforts at combating trafficking. As part of the implementation of the Council of Europe Convention, the National Referral Mechanism has been established to improve identification and protection of trafficking victims. Identified victims get an extendable 45-day recovery period and, in certain circumstances, a temporary residence permit. Victims are also entitled to accommodation, advocacy, counselling, medical care, legal advice, interpretative services and reintegration assistance if they return home.

The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, raised several issues about the organisation of our efforts to tackle child trafficking and care for the victims. Child trafficking is a form of child abuse and, in front-line policing terms, falls within the remit of police child protection work, in partnership with local authorities and children's services. Responsibility for the care, protection and accommodation of child trafficking victims falls within the responsibilities of local authorities under the Children Acts of 1989

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and 2004. Where a child is assessed as trafficked and therefore "in need", a social worker is appointed-I think that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked about this-and will be responsible for putting in place an individualised care plan, covering the full range of the child's needs for accommodation, education and other support.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and others raised concerns about the NRM. We agree that we must continuously look to making improvements. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, specifically referred to training. A review of the NRM is being conducted. One of the key issues raised as part of that review has been a need to improve awareness of this process among the various authorities, including local authorities. We agree with that. Officials are working on the best ways to achieve this.

The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, also raised the type of accommodation provided. This will depend on the assessment of risk and the needs of the individual young person, together with the availability of accommodation locally. It might be in a children's home for younger children or with a foster carer employed or engaged by the local authority. I should say that separated and vulnerable children from abroad enjoy exactly the same entitlements as all UK-born and resident children.

Local children's services work in close co-operation with the police and the UK Border Agency to offer potentially trafficked children the necessary protection. At the border and within the UK, the UK Border Agency works closely with other statutory agencies, including the police and local authorities, to safeguard children. Arriving children and any accompanying adults are routinely interviewed at the port of entry. The UK Border Agency has for some time employed professional social workers who are available to give advice to UKBA staff on child welfare and child protection issues as they arise. As part of the NRM review officials are working to raise awareness of the NRM process which provides a mechanism to co-ordinate information and intelligence about a child's needs.

Turning to international and European Union co-operation, human trafficking is very often a cross-border crime. So we must ensure that there is sufficient international co-operation between Governments and law enforcement agencies. The Government remain committed to improving that. Several if not most noble Lords have, understandably, raised the fact that the United Kingdom has decided not to opt in yet to the EU directive on trafficking in human beings. Noble Lords have raised a number of specific points on which they have concerns with this decision. Let me now attempt to address some of these and if I do not pick them all up I will write to noble Lords after the debate.

It is important to underline that although the decision is not to opt in at this stage, we will review the position when the directive is adopted. Furthermore, we continue actively to participate in the negotiations. Several noble Lords raised their understandable concerns regarding the prosecution of those who are trafficked, making the important point that the focus must be on identifying and prosecuting those who are doing the trafficking.

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We certainly agree with that. However, a blanket ban on prosecuting those who are arrested or apprehended by the police and who later disclose that they have been trafficked would be unlawful under the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 which sets out the statutory obligations of the CPS. Specific guidance has been given to the CPS which requires prosecutors to review each case with a full analysis of the relevant facts and circumstances in a manner that is retrospective and case-specific, and which makes it clear that it is not in the public interest to bring charges against those who are coerced.

The matter of funding support for victims between the time they approach an NGO and when they are determined to be a victim was raised by, among others, my noble friend Lord McColl. As I have said, children have exactly the same entitlements as all UK born and resident children. Where potential adult victims who are without accommodation come to our attention, the appropriate authorities will work with NGOs to find interim accommodation until a decision about their status is made. Although the point has not been raised particularly by noble Lords, perhaps it is worth saying that we are compliant with the directive in this regard.

My noble friend Lord McColl said that the directive goes further than the convention on the requirement to provide "necessary" medical assistance to victims. I have been assured that all victims have access to full NHS care. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, my noble friend Lord McColl and other noble Lords raised the matter of a special representative or legal guardian for child victims in court proceedings. Such victims currently receive the services of an independent reviewer, and it is the view of the Government that the distinction between this and a special representative is a fine one. However, it would be shocking if there were local authorities who could not or did not provide an adequate service of this type. If noble Lords are able to make me aware of specific examples of failures in this area, I shall take them to the department.

Another issue raised by my noble friend Lord McColl is the requirement in the directive to appoint a rapporteur or equivalent mechanism. The United Kingdom has an Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group on Trafficking which the Government believe fulfils the function of a rapporteur and that scrutiny by this group satisfies the requirements as set out in the directive. In terms of data gathering, the UK Human Trafficking Centre acts as a central repository for intelligence and data on human trafficking.

Adopting the directive would require some of its measures to be enshrined in legislation. Noble Lords will be aware that the Government have a general rule that they are keen to avoid extra legislation where reasonably possible. We are of the view that what matters is whether we actually tackle this terrible crime properly. We take it very seriously indeed and believe we have the tools we need, but as I said earlier, although the decision is not to opt in at this stage, we will review the position when the directive is adopted. I also take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, about the moral message.

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The UK has a strong record in the fight against trafficking and is compliant in both legislation and practice with most of what is required by the directive. It contains no operation or co-operation measures from which the UK would benefit. While it will indeed help to improve the way other EU states combat trafficking, it will make little difference to the way the UK does so. There are also risks that some of the concessions secured during the negotiations may be reversed by the European Parliament. By opting out now but reviewing our position when the directive is agreed, we can choose to benefit from being part of a directive that is helpful but avoid being bound by measures that are against our interests. Several noble Lords have asked for a meeting, and I should say that I will be delighted to meet interested Peers, should they wish.

I can assure my noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that we are satisfied that our decision will not affect our relationship with other European Governments. The UK continues to play an active role in helping to improve EU-wide efforts to combat human trafficking. We will continue to work constructively with those in Europe on issues of mutual interest. We have, for example, contributed to the Stockholm Programme, which contains a commitment to fight trafficking among the EU's priorities until 2014. We are also involved in a number of initiatives focused specifically on trafficking, for example, in improving data and sharing best practice. The importance of co-operation between our law enforcement agencies such as the Serious Organised Crime Agency and their European counterparts, including Europol and Frontex, will of course continue.

While I have attempted to highlight what has been achieved by the UK so far, the tasks ahead are certainly not easy. The very nature of this covert crime means that no one can be satisfied that it is totally under control. It is for this reason that we and all those involved in law enforcement and victim support must work relentlessly, and we need to keep under review all aspects of our work in this area. Noble Lords will be interested to know that my honourable friend the Minister for Immigration will shortly be announcing improvements in the ways we tackle these crimes.

Several noble Lords asked questions which I have not been able to answer adequately in the time allowed, and I hope they will appreciate that I felt it particularly important to attempt to explain the Government's thinking about their decision not yet to opt in to the directive. If I may, I will write to them.

1.26 pm

Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. Diverse issues have been raised very passionately and with utter conviction, based on the experience of noble Lords around the Chamber. I hope that some useful follow-up will ensue from this short debate. It is an international and a domestic issue, and indeed there are questions about training, accommodation, identification, prosecutions and victim support.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hunt for his forceful and perceptive summary, and I thank the Minister both for discussions before the debate and his response

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during it. I know that he is concerned about this problem, and I respect his view. However, I have to say that I still cannot accept his explanation for not opting in to the European directive. It is a puzzling statement that will send negative signals around the voluntary sector and the parliamentary world when it is clear that we have done so much in the past to defend and protect the victims of trafficking. Now we seem to be saying that that is not important any more, and I urge the Government to think again. However, I welcome the Minister's confirmation that he will hold a meeting with those noble Lords who are interested in the directive, and I look forward to it. I also look forward to the completion of the NRM review and to future collaboration. Again, I thank noble Lords for their participation.

Motion withdrawn.

Public Bodies: Reform

1.28 pm

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made today in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office, Mr Francis Maude. The Statement is as follows:

"Mr Speaker, this Government have taken decisive action to restore accountability and responsibility to public life. For too long this country has tolerated Ministers who duck the difficult decisions they were elected to make. For too long we have had too many unaccountable officials with a licence to meddle in people's lives. For too long we have had quango pay spiralling out of control, so that seven people in the Audit Commission are paid over £150,000 a year at a time when the average civil servant is paid £23,000.

The landscape for public bodies needs radical reform to increase transparency and accountability, to cut out duplication of activity and to discontinue activities which are simply no longer needed. This morning, my Written Statement outlined the start of a process to curtail the quango state. I have led an intensive review into public bodies, subjecting each to four tests. The first is existential: does the body need to exist or its functions carried out at all? The answer to that question in some cases is no. For example, we decided that government did not need an independent body to deliberate on the purchase of wine. However, if, as in most cases, the body's functions are deemed necessary, then we sought to establish whether these functions should properly be carried out at an arm's length to government. If the body carries out a highly technical activity, or is required to be politically impartial, or needs to act independently to establish facts, then it is right for it to remain outside government. This is the case with bodies such as the OBR and Ofgem. However, any quango which does meet one of these tests will either be brought back into a government department, devolved to local authorities or its functions will be carried out by the private sector.

We have gone through an extensive process to determine the outcome of this review. Our first task was quite simply to identify how many quangos there are and what they do. It may sound absurd, but it was and it

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remains incredibly difficult to gain firm information on these bodies. Many do not publish accounts; there is no central list; and there are a myriad of different types, all with different statuses. The official list of NDPBs lists 679 bodies, excluding those in Northern Ireland, but that does not include non-ministerial departments, government-owned public corporations and trading funds. Our review covers 901 bodies and we believe this is the true extent of the landscape. I should stress that departmental agencies are not in scope. These are directly controlled by Ministers who are accountable to Parliament for what they do.

Once we had established the overall list, each department has gone through a rigorous process to determine whether each of their quangos meets any of these tests. The list I have published today is not complete; it is a work in progress. The House will note that a number of bodies are subject to a longer term review, such as the Children's Commissioner or the Office for Fair Access. However, of the 901 bodies in the review, substantial reforms are proposed for over half. We propose that 192 will cease to be public bodies; 118 will be merged down to 57 bodies, removing wasteful and complicating duplication of effort; and 171 are proposed for substantial reform while retaining their current status.

For those bodies which we are abolishing, I should stress that in many cases this does not mean the end of the function. Abolishing the regional development agencies does not mean that we no longer care about promoting regional business but that we think it can be promoted in a better way. Since RDAs have been introduced, regional imbalances have got worse. The development agencies carried a staggering £212 million in administration costs. We believe that local businesses and local authorities are best placed to decide what they need, not highly paid executives imposed on them by government. An activity does not need an unaccountable bureaucratic structure in order to signify its importance; the exact converse is true. If something is important, then someone who is elected should make decisions about how it is done. This is why we are bringing a host of functions back into government, such as those of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission and the Renewable Fuels Agency.

All remaining bodies will be subject to a rigorous triennial review to ensure that the previous pattern of public bodies often outliving the purpose for which they were established will not be repeated. They will be expected to become more open, accountable and efficient. I will give more detail on the new framework to the House in the new year.

All the changes proposed here will be delivered within departments' spending review settlements. Those bodies whose status is being retained may be subject to further reforms following the spending review, in the same way as all other parts of the public sector.

I want to acknowledge the dedication and hard work of those who work in public bodies, and we are committed to working with chairs and chief executives of these bodies to ensure that change is conducted as fairly and as smoothly as possible. To enable these proposed changes, we will shortly introduce a public

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bodies Bill which will give Ministers power to make changes to named statutory bodies. Other forthcoming legislation, such as the education Bill and the localism Bill, will also be used to make changes directly.

I believe that these reforms are the first and necessary step to restoring proper democratic accountability to public life and signal a complete culture change in government, from one which ducks difficult decisions, is opaque and allows profligacy, inflated salaries and waste, to an administration which is open and transparent about what it does, takes responsibility for its actions and is mindful of every penny of taxpayers' money. I commend them to the House".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

1.37 pm

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement. We believe it right that the work of non-departmental public bodies should be scrutinised and kept under review. Indeed, that is what the Labour Government were doing. We reduced the number of arm's-length bodies and delivered record efficiency savings, but we did it as part of a considered, orderly approach, avoiding the massive disruption in stability which may result from the Government's approach announced today.

Why is it being done? We heard from the Minister a number of reasons, but I would take him back to the announcement made round the Queen's Speech 2010, when we were told it was to reduce the cost of bureaucracy and that savings of around £1 billion per year were anticipated. Since then there seems to have been a shift in emphasis; we are now told that the purpose is to increase accountability. Abolishing transparent independent bodies and bringing some of their functions into central government departments is not what I would describe as an increase in accountability. How is accountability increased by bringing these functions into virtually invisible units within large central government departments? How in future will we know what work is being done? How will the people doing it be held to account? I hope the Minister will be able to clarify that.

One reason for the stress on accountability is that the Government are nowhere near to the savings in expenditure that they thought they were going to get when they announced the policy. Where is the £1 billion per year savings that we were promised? In fact we were told this morning on the "Today" programme-not in Parliament-that saving money is not the principal objective. All the evidence suggests that it will cost more money than it saves in relation to a number of the organisations, among them the Audit Commission, the RDAs, the British Film Council and Standards for England. When you take account of the redundancy, relocation and retraining costs and the contracts which will have to be stopped midway, you can see that that is not surprising. What is the total cost of implementing these plans this year and next?

We support the drive for efficiency. However, let us look at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, an internationally respected organisation which performs a very important role at modest cost. If we set that role against the cost of disruption to the

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organisation and its staff, we realise that transferring its functions to another regulator is surely not worth doing. I also suggest that it shows some disrespect to this House. I would remind the Minister of the debates that we held early in the decade when this House agreed to extend the research purposes to which the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority could give approval. One of the key reasons why, after a seven-hour debate, this House agreed to the extension was the respect in which we hold the HFEA, its integrity and its robustness. We throw that reputation away at our peril. What does the Minister have to say to his noble friend Lord Willis, who pointed out in Oral Questions yesterday that,

There are similar points to be made about other organisations. What will be put in place of the General Teaching Council? There was a general welcome for the establishment of a professional body of regulation for the teaching profession. When its abolition was announced in the other place by Mr Michael Gove, he was unable to answer questions about how a replacement structure would be put in place. It is right that the Minister should tell us today.

Why do the Government wish to abolish the Health Protection Agency? Its role is to provide an integrated approach to protecting UK public health, including the provision of independent scientific advice to government. The problem is that the Government intend to pull the work of the HPA inside the Department of Health. They will also bring a number of other independent expert advisory bodies within the department. Much though I respect the Department of Health, the fact is that independent scientific advice is sometimes uncomfortable to Ministers. Will the scientific advice now being brought inside the department be made publicly available? Will it be known to Parliament if Ministers disagree with the advice?

The abolition of the UK Film Council has caused great concern among leading film makers. What will be the cost in terms of lost experts? I also question the uncertainty being caused by the review of CAFCASS when we know that it is under considerable pressure in supporting children. What about Consumer Focus? My experience at the Department of Energy and Climate Change was that it had a valuable role to play in bringing forward concerns among consumers in matters to do with energy. We are told that its role is to be taken over by the citizens advice bureaux, but the CAB does a very different job. Are the current responsibilities, powers, duties and functions of Consumer Focus to be transferred lock, stock and barrel to the citizens advice bureaux?

The Statement referred to regional development agencies. I know from living in Birmingham, in the West Midlands, that there is great concern about the loss of the RDAs. They have done fantastically valuable work. Local enterprise partnerships will simply not have the budgets, nor will they be up to the task. It is already clear that, in the West Midlands, the Black

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Country is to be split off from Birmingham, creating two separate local enterprise partnerships. That is a crazy decision which will break up the cohesion that we have seen in the past few years.

What is the job impact of these decisions on the regions? I hope the Minister will be able to tell me. What has happened to the quangos that were promised in the Conservative Party manifesto? We have heard a lot today about the iniquities of these bodies, and some of their officials, too, but what about the 20 new quangos promised by the Conservative Party? Can the Minister confirm that those quangos will now not go ahead?

Very little detail is given in the Statement about the proposals. Nothing is said about actual amounts of money, either costs or savings. Nothing is said about the impact on jobs. I suggest to the Minister that, in respect of each public body that is being abolished or changed, the Government should provide a statement showing which activities are going to be carried out in the future, which will be transferred to another body, how many full-time equivalent staff will be saved and how much money will be saved. It is also very important that, before legislation reaches us, there should be an early opportunity for the House to discuss these matters in full. I hope he will encourage the House authorities to allow us to have a full debate on these matters.

1.46 pm

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I thank the noble Lord for his thoughtful comments and questions on these reforms, as well as for his general support for the government strategy, which is, after all, to review non-departmental public bodies. As he rightly pointed out, the Government of whom he was a member were doing that, too.

I should assure the House that this review is essentially, and has always been, about accountability. I answered a question here not so very long ago about what was going on in the review and I made it clear that the three tests have mattered more than anything else. That is why I am not in a position to give noble Lords detailed answers on the budgetary implications of the changes; that will all become part of the spending review which we anticipate next week.

The noble Lord had me thumbing through my briefing given the multiplicity of bodies that he mentioned. I shall do my best to answer him. If I fail to do so and drop a catch, I shall write to him and put a copy in the Library.

On the RDAs, we will just have to agree to disagree, because the Government see it differently. The noble Lord rightly pointed to the RDAs as effective articulators of a regional voice. The local enterprise partnerships are likely to be even more effective in identifying and articulating local needs than the existing RDAs. It is an unassailable point that regional differences in this country have increased during the time in which RDAs have been in existence. It is a matter of opinion, but I am giving your Lordships the Government's opinion, which I support.

Each of these bodies is staffed and supported by people who are passionate and knowledgeable about the particular work that they do. Such passion is

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admirable, but it can lead to mission creep. Noble Lords will have noted that in a number of instances. A body or committee is set up to meet a pressing or current need but, once it is in existence, it finds new work for itself. Each of these small changes are in themselves rational and well meaning but, over time, they can result in a huge number of similar bodies, as noble Lords can see from the list today, with many overlapping or even duplicating functions. It is simply good government to keep the tendency for mission creep and duplication in check.

Moreover we need to ensure that there is direct accountability to elected politicians for tough decisions. The noble Lord said that he could not see how bringing an organisation into the department would increase accountability. I would have thought that this House is very good at making departments accountable by bringing Ministers to the Dispatch Box to account for activities within their departments. In truth, many of these bodies will not have had a single question asked about them during the time of their existence. They are obscure. This will make Parliament the forum in which all government activity can be challenged, and rightly so.

We need to take stock from time to time and see if the right tasks are being performed by the right people. The need to reduce the spending deficit provides an added emphasis to the task, but that is not necessarily the prime mover for the way in which this particular review has been undertaken.

I will go through one or two of the points made by the noble Lord. He talked about the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. He might also have mentioned the Human Tissue Authority, which is a similar body facing a similar absorption into a more general health and science-based review body. The creation of the Care Quality Commission has given Parliament the opportunity to achieve that. As my noble friend said yesterday, the HFEA has achieved the regard of the public and Parliament, but that does not mean that we should not review its scope and activity and look for a better way of doing what it does. That is exactly why we have looked at all these bodies and are presenting changes to the House. Change is not something to be feared. It is a challenge, but it does not mean deterioration, as some cynics have suggested. The cost of the changes will be met within departmental limits set out in the spending review.

The noble Lord asked about the General Teaching Council for England. There is a review of all the teaching bodies that are designed to maintain standards of teaching in the UK. Within the context of that change, it is believed that the General Teaching Council for England will disappear. That is not to say that the function it was performing was of no value. The same applies to Consumer Focus. Consumer Focus will be absorbed into the citizens advice bureaux, which are highly regarded public bodies with which the public relate and can identify. Although Consumer Focus has done good things, it can be replaced by the CAB and can strengthen the CAB without diluting consumer interests. It is right to do that.

The noble Lord asked for more time and deliberation-for specific conclusions on the detail,

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where staff will move and how functions will be delivered. We cannot have this both ways. There are proposals setting out clear intentions on accountability to be delivered by departments with staff and stakeholders. The previous Government set out their own programme of changes to 123 arm's-length bodies. At least 50 of those proposed for consultation are within our listings. We are reforming 480 and are committed to making that happen. I hope that the noble Lord is reassured by the Government's determination to focus on this issue both for the sake of accountability and for the sake of efficiency and good government.

1.55 pm

Lord Fowler: My Lords, I support the general policy put forward by my noble friend, but I want to ask about broadcasting policy, which is dealt with in this paper. What duties are being removed from Ofcom as proposed in the paper? In particular, why has the opportunity not been taken to abolish the unnecessary BBC Trust, which has few friends inside or outside the BBC, and certainly qualifies for inclusion? Why are we not bringing private investment into BBC Worldwide, which must be to the benefit of that company and was even supported by the previous Government?

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The noble Lord makes some useful suggestions for the ongoing process of the review and I am grateful to him for them. They are not covered within the existing programme of change, but the Government intend to continue to test all government bodies against their standards. I note my noble friend's comments and I am sure that I can take them back.

Lord Borrie: In light of the well-publicised speech during the summer by the right honourable Vince Cable on the disastrous situation that would come about if capitalism were to be completely unrestrained, is not the proposal to abolish the Competition Commission astonishing? It is true that the Statement says that it will be merged with the Office of Fair Trading, but over the past 50 years in which the present system for advancing competition has been in force, with the Office of Fair Trading, the Competition Commission formerly the Monopolies Commission and the Government, it has generally been accepted that the system is fair, just and effective. I mention fairness because the word is so important today. The Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission are separate and not merged together because the more aggressive body, the Office of Fair Trading, makes prosecutorial propositions against a merger of two companies, for example, and the Competition Commission can then judicially and impartially judge between them.

The Statement emphasises the matter of political impartiality. The reason for the whole set-up dealing with competition policy, to which all parties have adhered for 50 years, is that there should be political impartiality when it comes to individual decision-making about company mergers or the restrictive practices of a particular company. They should not be subject to party-political pressure. Surely, the Minister would agree.

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Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I understand the noble Lord's experience in these matters and respect it greatly. There is a view, which the Government hold, that there is duplication between these two bodies, which has led to unnecessary duplication of effort. The merger of the two bodies will make them more efficient. There will be ongoing consultation on the way in which this merger will take place and how the new body will be structured in order to make it effective. I am grateful for the noble Lord's comments. They will be taken on board.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there will be widespread support for what is contained in the Statement about retaining the Equality and Human Rights Commission but radically reforming it? Is he aware, too, that the independence guarantees, which I personally persuaded the previous Government to write into the Equality Act 2006, were not meant to produce a situation of irresponsibility? Will he ensure that Ministers and civil servants bring home to the chairman and commissioners that they will no longer receive grants in aid unless they can demonstrate value for money in advance of the grants and not only by some kind of ex post facto review?

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I thank my noble friend for his comments. Widespread concern has been expressed in the press about the Equality and Human Rights Commission and its role. We are proposing to retain it, precisely because we believe that a regulator is needed to help to enforce the laws governing equality and anti-discrimination. But we believe that the EHRC's remit is too wide and that it has not always been well managed. That is why we are proposing substantially to reform it.

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: I declare an interest as the chair of the Legal Services Consumer Panel. We had no advance notice of this; there was an e-mail at 9.36 this morning to one of my staff-not to me-alerting us, not in the published list but in the question and answers that Ministers were given as their brief, that the Government were minded to merge the panel in with Citizens Advice. Is that the normal courtesy that you would have for an organisation that you wish to merge?

On the issue itself, the Legal Services Consumer Panel was set up with the complete support of this House as part of the Legal Services Act. It is, of course, funded by lawyers-and I thank the many lawyers here for the funding. It is accountable to the users of legal services and is wholly different from Citizens Advice. It advises the regulator on behalf of the users of legal services on how best to regulate, which is an utterly different role from that of Citizens Advice. Was there any logical thinking in putting this measure not in the published list but in the attachment, then not telling us, as well as the unusual history with Citizens Advice?

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I think I can explain. As the noble Baroness said, the Government are minded but have not made a decision. There is no doubt that she will have plenty of opportunity to consult the Government and the body will be able to discuss the

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matter with the Government. So there is no specific proposal, but the Government are minded to merge.

Lord Harries of Pentregarth: My Lords, in his response to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, the Minister mentioned the HFEA and the Human Tissue Authority in the same sentence, implying that they were comparable. Will he kindly bear in mind that, a few years ago, an attempt was made to bring together these two bodies, and they were actually found to be incompatible? It cost a lot of money to bring them together and then to rend them apart again. We are all sympathetic in this House to trying to cut costs. However, I wrote to the Minister pointing out that, with regard to the HFEA, there are other, quicker ways in which to save money, rather than going through the whole expensive business of setting up, dismembering and then trying to integrate with new bodies.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for putting the decision in context. Indeed, the two bodies are entirely separate, but the proposal is to treat them in the same way, by merging them into a third body within the existing healthcare bodies. That is why I referred to them together.

Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, one has only to look at the list of bodies to see that the review was badly needed, and I welcome the fact. However, I pick on two bodies answerable to Defra-Natural England and the Environment Agency. It is quite a long time since I handed over responsibility for the National Rivers Authority, which became absorbed into the Environment Agency, but I cannot help being struck by the strength of the criticism contained in the commentary here. It says:

"Reform through structural, process and cultural change to become a more efficient and customer focused organisation; and clarify accountabilities".

It is of great urgency that we should have early on a detailed statement of what those criticisms are and what it is proposed that we should do about them. I cannot think of anything much more damaging for an important organisation than to have this kind of description hanging over it without clarification of what is supposed to have gone wrong. In view of the fact that the body has been answerable to Defra since it came into being, and that Defra supervised how it was set up, one wonders why it has got into a state that deserves such criticism and whether Defra is in fact the best body to sort out the mess that apparently exists.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My noble friend need have no concerns on this matter, because Defra is well aware of the difficulties of these two bodies. They have suffered from mission creep, and within their budgets there will be a redefining of their role, which is very important. There will be plenty of opportunity because the Secretary of State will, indeed, be making announcements on these bodies in due course.

Lord Boateng: My Lords, the Caribbean Board is to be abolished, which will be of considerable-

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Baroness Gould of Potternewton: I apologise to my noble friend, but I am the chair of two organisations that have been purged today, so I feel I must express my views. One of the organisations will become an advisory stakeholder group, and we might well be able to work with that. We have had lots of discussion on how that is going to happen. The other organisation, which is the only national body in this country and the whole of the UK responsible for gender, is being abolished with absolutely nothing to say that it will be replaced. It will be abolished full stop, and its work will go into the department. I want to know how the 620 organisations that belonged to the Women's National Commission will have a voice direct to the Government, and how they will have a voice when they disagree with government. The commission has very often acted as a caveat, being able to co-ordinate the voice of women to government. I have not yet received any answers on that point.

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