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3.40 am

Amendment 62

Moved by Lord Snape

62: Clause 11, page 9, line 18, leave out "600" and insert "640"

Lord Snape: My Lords, I am now faced with a rather impossible task. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, who is about to go and have a lie down-fortunately, I think, given the state of his temper-has already denounced me for time wasting before I have got to my feet. Things are a little difficult. I hope before he goes I will not have him banging on the Dispatch Box, so I will try to introduce some new arguments into this case. My noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey will be relieved to know that this is very much a probing amendment and I tabled it in the hope that we could have a debate about the duties and responsibilities of a Member of Parliament and, as my noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport amply demonstrated in the debate on the last amendment, how the role of a Member of Parliament has changed enormously over the years. I hope to be able to do so without provoking a phone call from Trimble junior about any waffling from this side of the House. I never went to university myself but to find students these days at 3.42 in the morning watching the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill indicates to me that a university education is not all that it is cracked up to be. Certainly I would find something better to do if I were in their position.

In 1974 I was elected to the other place for the then new constituency of West Bromwich East-a constituency created by the Boundary Commission, bearing in mind the social conditions in West Bromwich at that time because that is what Boundary Commissions did and do, which is why there has been so much concern on this side of your Lordships' House about the future and particularly about the lack of local inquiries when new boundaries are produced, which is inherent in this Bill.

During my early years as a Member of the other place-coincidentally, although I see the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has left the Front Bench now-I shared the use of a secretary with a man called Andrew Bennett who represented Stockport North. In those days, it was sufficient for us to employ a part-time secretary who would come in on two evenings a week to jointly do our constituency work. When I left the other place in 2001, I employed two full-time staff and one part-timer. That was before the onset of the

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internet. I did not actually know how to plug a computer in when I was a Member of the House of Commons-I had somebody to do all that sort of thing for me. I found some difficulty in being transported to your Lordships' House as I was expected to do all that sort of thing myself. I managed to achieve that much and I can cope just about with the internet but my successor in the other place can get 5,000 e-mails a week. Many of the people, if they e-mail him and do not get an instant response-within, say, 24 hours-will denounce him in the local paper for failing to take any notice of his constituents. It is a vastly different world from that I experienced 37 years ago when I was first elected. I hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who is replying to this debate, will do so with regard to the seriousness with which I am putting these points. One of the reasons that I have tabled this amendment is that the position, duties and workload of a Member of Parliament are much greater now than in the days just referred to. Of course it could be argued-it probably will be argued from the government Front Bench-that secretarial facilities in the other place are much better than they were all those years ago, and if necessary those secretarial facilities could be increased to meet that burgeoning workload.

3.45 am

My noble friend Lord Howarth mentioned the number of immigration cases. It will not come as any surprise to him if I say, as someone who represented West Bromwich, that they provided a considerable proportion of my workload as a constituency Member of Parliament. Indeed, there is no reason to suppose that that situation has changed since I left the other place. Again, noble Lords will appreciate that immigration matters in particular are extraordinarily time consuming. It is not a question of a simple housing repair; there are plenty of those cases as well of course. Some of my colleagues in the other place, much braver than I, said "Well, if someone comes to you with a housing case why don't you refer them to your local councillors?". I had a majority of 288 at one stage, so I was not about to alienate any more people than was absolutely necessary. I dealt with them myself at that time. Immigration cases in particular were, and are, extraordinarily complicated, and it might easily be argued that we could increase secretarial allowances for Members of Parliament in order for them to meet that ever burgeoning workload.

The newspapers are reporting only this week on the salaries of Members of Parliament. It is easier perhaps for us at this end of the building to defend a proper salary for a Member of Parliament. Setting up a body to take the question of Members' salaries out of the Chamber of the other place and place it in the hands of an independent body would, it was said at the time by Harriet Harman and by other people, make the award of an increase for Members of Parliament much easier to accept. "Oh, yes", I said at the time, "I will believe that when I see it".

I go back to Harold Wilson's days. He gave me my first job as a junior Whip. He said. "At least you get a pay rise". I think it was about £3,000 a year that we earned back in the 1970s. I had no doubts that, when this independent body was set up, the first time it

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awarded Members of Parliament a pay rise the Prime Minister of the day, regardless of his political view, would say, "It's the wrong time". Well, I have been around this building for nearly 40 years. I have never known the right time for Members of Parliament to get a pay rise. Certainly it will be argued-I expect it to be argued by the government Front Bench-that, given the current circumstances, it is an inappropriate time to award the £1,000 a year that this independent body has recommended. Does anyone seriously think on either side of the Chamber that it will be possible to give Members of Parliament adequate facilities to do the extra constituency workload that they have at present? Does anyone think that the Daily Mailwould not say, "These people are costing us X thousands of pounds a year"? Being a Member of Parliament in the other place is the only job I have ever known where your secretary's salary and her typewriter or computer is added to your salary as far as the newspapers are concerned. That is never going to change. I say in all seriousness to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who is going to reply to this debate, that I hope that the Government will look at the numbers of Members of Parliament and they will move away from this belief that 600 is the optimum figure. We have never had an explanation, after all this time and after all this debate on the Bill, how that figure has been arrived at. I hope that the Minister will agree that to reduce the numbers of Members of the other place, despite the problems and workload in a modern society, is nonsense.

I do not want to repeat anything that was said previously on the debate as to whether this should be 600, 640 or 650. I just ask the Minister, when he responds, to bear in mind that it is not popular to defend Members of the other place, but regardless of political party the vast majority of them are, in my experience, hard working. To reduce their numbers at present, given the social problems facing this country, given the economic situation facing this country, and given the increased workload for all of them, regardless of what part of the country they represent, would be absolute folly.

I hope that the Minister will reply in the same spirit with which I have moved this amendment and accept that there are sincere concerns-I am sure on both sides of your Lordships' House, but certainly on this side of the House-about the future. We believe that the present number-650-is about right and we ought to keep it at that. I beg to move.

Lord Grocott: My Lords, I very much agree with my noble friend's comments, although I would not be happy even with a reduction to 640, as the amendment proposes. I shall speak briefly from personal experience. The only justification that I can think of-I really have been wrestling with this-for the Government deciding to reduce the number of MPs is that they must somehow or other think that it does not make any difference to the way in which MPs can serve their constituents.

It was my experience as the MP for The Wrekin that when the electorate went up to 90,892 at the 1992 election, it was like the cavalry coming over the hill when the Boundary Commission said that the constituency had to be reduced in size. It went down quite dramatically. I acknowledge that it ended up smaller than you

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would expect a constituency to be, but it includes a very rapidly expanding town. The electorate went down from 90,892 to 56,558. I have to say to the House that although, like the vast majority of MPs, I was very hard working and did my very best to represent the people who had sent me to Westminster, the level of service and the quality of job that you can do when you have 56,000 or 60,000 people to represent is dramatically better than the service that you can deliver when you represent 90,000 people.

At the simplest level, as far as I was concerned, it meant that instead of largely reacting to constituency problems, complaints and grievances-because that filled your time-and going to factories and schools, for example, when they invited you along, I was able in a reasonably coherent way to set out a programme of action within the much smaller electorate and geographical size of the constituency to do these things on a much more systematic basis.

I find it impossible to accept the argument that you should increase the size of constituencies. I would describe this section of the Bill not as the reduction in the number of MPs, but as the increase in the size of constituencies. Doing that weakens the link between the MP and his or her constituents. I find that pretty astonishing, particularly when it comes from members of parties that were very concerned about the breakdown of trust in Parliament-we were all concerned about that-up until the last general election, when it was said that MPs and Parliament generally must reconnect with the people. Now they are bringing forward a Bill that makes that unarguably more difficult.

I suggest to the Government that they would save themselves an awful lot of difficulty-I know they are not looking for suggestions-if they looked again at the proposal to reduce the number of MPs and concentrated instead on the mantra, which we have heard so frequently, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord McNally, about fair votes in fair constituencies. I cannot remember it, but it is some mantra of that sort. They should concentrate rather more on equalising the size of constituencies, if that is their objective, and rather less on simultaneously trying to reduce the number of MPs and increasing the size of constituencies.

I was going to say, "If I was a betting man", but I am a betting man. I would bet that if, in the privacy of their own party relationships, the Conservative leadership and the Liberal Democrat leadership went to their own Members of Parliament-who now know that they will be in conflict with neighbours as the constituencies are redrawn, will for the most part have bigger constituencies to represent and will have to face this upheaval every five years-they would not still be very keen to go ahead with the Bill in its present form.

I would imagine that if the Whips do what Whips have traditionally done, at their best, which is consult their Members, they would find widespread misgivings about what is being done. When you get over the flush of success when you are first returned and at subsequent returns-we know there has been a terrific turnover in membership of the other House-they will begin to realise that very substantial changes are coming their way, probably to their disadvantage, which their own Government are whipping through.

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I have no problem whatever with this House spending time on a Bill that primarily concerns the House of Commons, because very quickly, large numbers of their Members will object not only to the constituency part of the Bill, but to the change in the electoral system. So we have the astonishing situation that on most bits of the Bill, I have no doubt that there is a majority in the House of Commons against. I am certain that that is the case with respect to changes in the electoral system and I suspect that by now, in private, it would also be the view of many Members of the House of Commons in respect of the constituency boundaries part of the Bill.

That is why the function of this House is so important. It is to do the job that the Commons could not do because of the guillotine, but I also believe it to be true, paradoxically, that those of us who are concerned about this Bill are more representative of opinion across the House of Commons than can in any way be described by the votes that took place.

Finally, I have seen Minister after Minister defending the Bill and finding it impossible to explain why they have picked 600 and why they have that size of electorate for the constituencies. They would not be in this difficulty if they had thought again about the wisdom or otherwise of simultaneously changing the basis on which constituency boundaries are drawn-we could have a serious argument about making them more equal-and taking a decision on reducing the size of the House of Commons. They would not be in the business of having to explain the optimum size of a constituency; they would simply be able to say that this was what the independent Boundary Commission had decided in the past. It may not sound like it, but if they could bring themselves to look again at the position they have adopted on some of these things, they would make life a great deal easier for themselves. I have to say that I would certainly oppose any reduction in the number of Members of Parliament.

4 am

Lord Winston: I do not in any way wish to be political and I certainly do not want to be accused of filibuster, which is not my intention at all. I tried to raise this point earlier, but it has not been answered by anybody on either side of the House. When we employ people in most parts of the public sector, we make certain that that employment is tailored to the job that is required, taking account of the number of people who will be required to fill posts to do the work.

It seems to me that we have not yet in this debate fully explained exactly what we are requiring of our Members of the House of Commons. When I, for example, do an experiment in my laboratory, I make very serious mathematical calculations to try to predict what I will need mathematically in order to get a satisfactory experiment or a satisfactory result or to get something that is valuable. I use complex statistics. It seems to me-perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, might be able to answer this, and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Snape, might come back to it when he returns to his amendment in due course-that we are not doing anything other than pulling out of the air numbers which do not have any rationality.

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This is a really important issue for the House. For example-maybe this has come up before, but I have not heard it-it seems to me pretty obvious that, given the nature of an inner-city constituency with the deprivation that is likely to be present, a sitting Member is going to have a much harder task in servicing those constituents than someone in a rural area with perhaps the same number of constituents. It happens, of course, that most inner-city areas would be more likely to be represented by a Labour MP, but that is not my point at all. My point is that it does not make sense to have a blanket rule across constituencies; the amount of work in constituencies will naturally vary considerably. I hope that while we are teasing out this issue of whether it is 650 or 640, we might actually address this, and that future speakers in this debate will do just that.

Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate, and I was hoping that the noble Lord, Lord Snape, would address some of the questions that I had from the previous debate. I hope he will be able to come back. It seems to me, after listening to the debate on this issue-and we also had it on Second Reading-that there are two things missing, both in the Government's position and in the amendments that we debated earlier. The first is a justification for the number that has been given, be it 600, 630 or 640, and the other is a justification for the Government setting the number. I find myself in agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, who spoke earlier in that I am reluctant to accept from my noble friends as well as from the Government why the Government should be the body that sets the number of Members of Parliament. If the Minister is able to address that in his response, I would be extremely grateful.

I know that the Government are exasperated with this debate on the number of Members of Parliament, but it would be very easy for them to end the debate and clear it up. It seems to me that, today and at Second Reading, the response has been inadequate. At Second Reading, the Leader of the House said that 600 was the figure because it was a "nice round number". Tonight we have heard the noble Lord, Lord McNally, explain that it is a "common sense figure". When we are looking at the quality and level of representation for the elected House, I do not think it is adequate to talk about a nice round number or a number that makes sense. There has to be a proper analysis and rationale behind that. Some of the comments that have been made fail to understand why there is so much concern about plucking a number out of thin air. I would like to hear from my noble friend Lord Snape whether there is a rationale behind 640, or has it been proposed simply because it is not 600?

The Merits Committee also raised this particular issue with a lot of justification, and I think it would do the House no harm to take note of what it said:

"We conclude that the Government have not calculated the proposed reduction in the size of the House of Commons on any basis of any considered amendment of the role and functions of MPs".

That seems quite an indictment of the Government's position and further emphasises how poor an answer it is simply to say "a nice round number".

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We have to look at the role and functions of Members of Parliament-what the public expect of them and what your Lordships' House expects of them, and the relationship between the two Houses. Lines drawn on a map in order to create a constituency can significantly impact on a Member of Parliament's workload. It is not just about numbers: it affects the lives of constituents. Prior to my election to the other place in 1997, the constituency boundaries in my constituency were redrawn. For the 2010 election, the constituency boundaries were redrawn again, which may explain why I am in your Lordships' House and not in the other place.

Those lines had a real impact, particularly in 1997, because the seat that was known as Basildon then lost part of Basildon and took in part of Thurrock. Those members of the public who lived in Thurrock took great exception to being in a constituency where even the name did not recognise their existence. In terms of workload, as the Member of Parliament-unlike the previous Member of Parliament for that constituency-I did not go and see one police force or one local authority. To represent my constituents on issues that concerned them in meetings, I had to visit three local authorities, two police forces and two health authorities. Everything was doubled or tripled. The boundary lines are therefore very important, not only to the workload of constituency MPs but to how members of the public perceive their MP's loyalty and commitment to that constituency.

The noble Lord, Lord Winston, probably made this point better than I will, but the workload of a Member of Parliament varies enormously. It can depend on the type of constituency, which depends on levels of deprivation and, in some cases, the level of articulacy of members of that constituency. I recall speaking with a Conservative MP from a leafy suburb who stopped me when I was collecting my post in the Members' post room. My postbag was significantly heavier than his. He said, "Do you have much post?". I simply picked up the sack that I was carrying. He said, "I only get a couple of letters a day that I need to answer". He then asked me, "Do you hold surgeries in your constituency?". I said, "Of course I do". He said, "Does anybody attend? I sit in the village hall and nobody is there". Yet in my constituency, which geographically was considerably smaller than his, the workload was significantly greater. I mention that not to show how some MPs are hard-working and more precious than others, but because the quality of representation to a constituent is vitally important.

Constituency boundaries are also important in terms of the work of the House of Commons and scrutinising the Executive. In my time as a Member of Parliament-I was a Back-Bencher, a government Whip, PPS to the Prime Minister and a government Minister-I found my role as a constituency MP informed by my work as a Minister. Issues brought to the attention of Members of Parliament by constituents are important in looking at policy and looking at the impact of government policies. That link is vital. If constituencies are going to be made bigger at a time when MPs have fewer resources and less money-less money for staff, offices and communications with constituents, since the last election-and we increase the size of constituencies after we have reduced the resources, it becomes harder

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for those MPs to fulfil their duties to their constituents in the way that they want. They will not let that work slip. The relationship between MPs and their constituents is a precious one and is valued enormously. But that then has an impact on the work that they do in the other place in terms of scrutinising legislation and serving on Select Committees. I can count a number of cases where Members of Parliament said to me, "I will not be in for Questions today or the Statement because I have to finish my case work. I have calls to make to my constituents". That has a huge impact on the operation of the other place. We should never think that one part of a Member of Parliament's work is more important than any other. It is of equal value to represent constituents in the other place.

There is also the impact on the Executive if there are fewer MPs. Professor Anthony King raised the issue in an article in the Observer last year. His concern was that if there were fewer MPs, Ministers would be selected from a smaller gene pool. However, there is another significant point that I do not think has been raised so far. If the number of MPs is reduced, the Executive will be proportionately larger and will have greater power than at present. That is not satisfactory. In these amendments and government proposals, if we are talking about reducing the number of MPs from the current level, we should also be talking about reducing the size of the Executive.

For a number of reasons, the Government's proposals have huge implications and are flawed. I would like to hear from my noble friend Lord Snape why any reduction in the number of MPs is appropriate. How can we justify Parliament setting the number of Members of Parliament? Where did the figure of 640 come from? What is the rationale behind it?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I would like to try to answer the question asked by my noble friend Lord Winston, because it is a legitimate one. Although he did not put it this crudely, he seemed to say that, in theory and on paper, it is a good idea to write down the job description. But that cannot always be done. The one thing about the membership of the other place is that it is unique. Nobody else in the country is doing the things that they do. They are non-executive-they have no authority and cannot issue any orders except to their personal staff to answer questions. They are ombudsmen, champions, ambassadors, marriage counsellors and social workers. After my first 10 years I stopped saying that I had dealt with everything that you could think of, because the next week something completely different, which could never have been contemplated, came into my surgery or across my desk.

I went through two boundary changes along with my late friend Denis Howell, who was also a Member of this place. We had discussions about the size of the constituencies and the workload. Since then, I have taken more of an interest in matters outside the narrow urban areas, but Denis explained to me why the workload in the inner-cities was different. My seat was largely outer-city but also had a bit of inner-city. The workload is great in terms of the social side of things, such as the deprivation and the individual casework of people

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with individual problems, but you then have to balance that against the sparsity of population in other areas as well as what someone called the "intelligentsia", although that is not the word that I would use. About once a month somebody would come to see me to talk about policy. It was a shock when someone would do so. I would think, "What is the problem? This is about policy?". In other areas of the country, however, Members of Parliament are driven round the bend with questions about policy from their electorate. They have the time, the wherewithal, the knowledge, the expertise and the curiosity to put their Member of Parliament on the rack.

It is very difficult to write these things down and say that one is more important than another. I missed part of the debate but made a short intervention before the attempt to close the previous debate at about 7:30 am. However, I mentioned that my constituency numbers increased from 52,000 to 76,000 in the 1983 boundary changes. I had not realised that 76,000 was so important until I heard the noble Lord, Lord McNally, winding up the last debate. That is it: pick 76,000. That is the way to do it. My constituency, at the best measure, was 16 square miles. Radnor was about 1,200 square miles at the time. I visited other constituencies. I was once in Rossendale and Darwin for some reason. I was the opposition spokesman and was with the Member of Parliament. It may have been Janet Anderson, I cannot remember, but we were driving down a road in a valley with fields adjoining. She said, "We still have another 20 miles to go". I said, "I could put my whole constituency in this area that we are looking at now". The time element of getting around and being available when you have sparsity of population is a factor that we underestimate at our peril.

4.15 am

I did not want to intervene earlier on the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, or anybody else, because I had not been in the debate. However, the issue about Cumbria is not an unimportant one. He did not mention it, so I will. The only way you could put five Members in Cumbria is to stick a mountain range in the middle of one of the constituencies. It is the only way you can do it, because on paper it has been looked at and dismissed. When we had the last boundary review in 1992-93, the one that came into force in 1997, at the boundary inquiry in Birmingham we were faced with a situation where Yardley, a Birmingham constituency, if we did it wrong, would be 52,000. We knew that it had been the smallest constituency on mainland England. You could not justify the smallest constituency in the middle of the country because we were comparing it at that time with Copeland, I think it was, on the west coast of Cumbria. That was the next smallest, I think, with something in the range of 49,000 to 51,000 constituents, quite a bit smaller than the average. The reason was the sea and the mountains. If you want to take the view that, "No, everybody has got to be together", that means that you put a mountain range in the middle of a constituency. That is the reality. That is not a hypothetical example, but that is what will happen in the county of Cumbria. I do not think that anybody would think that that is a good idea.

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The only other point I want to make is the one previously made by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, I think, about the unsettling situation for Members of the other place. When boundaries have gone through two changes, in the normal course of events-three elections, a boundary change, three elections, a boundary change-there needs to be a degree of stability. You always knew that at the next election there would be a boundary change. There was an unsettling period, even though you were not fighting colleagues and Birmingham was not losing seats. People retired, and there was not really a massive conflict situation. However, those things occurred in the rest of the country. This is going to be a big conflict in the other place now because they have just had a boundary change. This is not a point about taking the normal flow. It is true that a lot of people have just come in, but the others are there as a result of a boundary change. Now they are going to face another boundary change at the next election. If the Government think they can hold Members' attention in the Lobby and on all the minutiae and the boring but necessary bits of legislation as we approach the next election, when people are off trying to find a constituency and challenging their colleagues-because that is the inevitable consequence of this-they've got another think coming. I think that will cause unsettling. That happens normally, and I have no problem about that. However, to have it happen with two elections running I think is going to cause major difficulties.

My final point is one that I would have made earlier, but it does go with the flow of the Bill. We have had constant complaining. When I left here last night, I actually watched the Leader of the House on Sky Television. He gave a very intemperate interview using quite extravagant language about the proceedings in this House, which I think he will come to regret in due course. No journalist ever questions the Government when they start to compare the Bill in the House of Commons with the Bill in this House. When the Commons started on this Bill, it was 153 pages. The Government put into the Bill in the Commons 286 amendments, causing it to leave the Commons at 300 pages. First of all, the Commons were under guillotine-and we know that government amendments take precedence when the knife comes down. It is actually far less time that MPs have had to debate the Bill and their amendments because of the time that the Government took putting their amendments into their Bill to double the size while it was in the Commons. I cannot understand why journalists never raise this issue.

The worst thing is that it is not possible to table Questions in this place to find out about amendments in the other place that were tabled but not debated, with no time spent on them, because there is no accountability on the Government to answer such a Question. One cannot table it because the Government cannot answer it. One can only ask about government amendments, which is how we know about the 286. They did not all come at once-there were more than 100 in Committee and more than 100 on Report. They were at it all the while. It is just as well that they cannot amend on Third Reading in the Commons, but they have come into this place to do this.

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The Government might have lost on one technical issue that I raised on the date, which does not alter or prevent 5 May-I am not seeking to prevent that; they can still do it-but the Government have now taken the level of amendments to well over 300 on their own Bill, and then they complain when we scrutinise what we are presented with. The fortunate thing in this House is that we do not have the guillotine-we do not have the knife-so we will debate our amendments as well as the government amendments. In the Commons, MPs were forced to vote on and debate government amendments and were banned and prohibited from debating many of their own amendments.

In many of our debates ex-Members of the other place have shared their lifetime experiences. I fully accept that some of those experiences were from another world-I was one of the last to have a fax machine, let alone e-mail and computers. The fact that we can share those experiences is fine, but we need to make up for the fact that, in the other place, they did not have the opportunity to do so.

Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I rise relatively briefly, certainly by the standard of some of the proceedings that have taken place. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Snape, would agree that his 640 was an absolutely precise figure based on a detailed application of science, but I think that we can take it as quite a useful thing. It is interesting to consider quite a small reduction instead of the largish ones that have been under consideration-to 600 or, as in the Conservative manifesto, I believe, beyond that. The arguments are rather different from the arguments for a large reduction.

I do not think, on the whole, that a small reduction is very desirable except in the circumstances that I shall come to in a minute. However, thinking about it does enable us to realise the virtues of an amendment that the House considered earlier and to which we will, I am sure, return on Report. Amendment 60, to which I am particularly wedded because it is in my name, proposes a Speaker's Conference to consider these things. I do not think that a Speaker's Conference would generally be very likely to think that 640 is the right answer. However, there is one circumstance that a Speaker's Conference might want to consider-I do not say what conclusion it would reach-and it is something that has not come up in this debates.

A number of Members are present from my own country of Wales. In Wales there is to be a referendum in March about increasing the powers of the Welsh Assembly. I am not an expert on the matter, and I do not know if such increases in powers would make it considerably more comparable with the Scottish Parliament, or rather more, or not make an enormous difference.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: It would be a substantial step in the direction of the Scottish Parliament, but almost certainly not enough to justify the same as happened in Scotland-a substantial reduction in seats- because the Scottish Parliament has a very wide range of primary legislative powers.

Lord Lipsey: I am most grateful to my noble friend; that is extremely helpful. If there were a Speaker's Conference, there would, first, be the question of the

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result. If the Welsh people turned down the increase of powers, there would be no reason from that to change the number of Welsh MPs. If they accepted the increase in powers, and the polls suggest that they will, there would be a case for looking at the number of Welsh seats.

You would then want to say: should such a decrease in the number of seats be felt to be justified, should this decrease be comparable to the scale of the decrease that took place in Scotland or at the Welsh Assembly? It would still have fewer powers than the Scottish Parliament. Should that be rather less, or does it really not justify changing the number of Welsh seats at all? I do not know. There are circumstances in which a small change in the number of seats could be justified. Otherwise there would be rather a lot of disruption for not a lot of gain. That is a circumstance which would best be considered by a Speaker's Conference.

Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I would like to bring to the House some experience of having had to go through a purely numerical exercise in redrawing a constituency, because the reduction of 13 in the number of Westminster seats for Scotland took place against a background of the Scottish Parliament. I am sure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, will correct me on the timing of these things, as he was the first Deputy First Minister in Scotland. The original section of the Scotland Act said that if the Westminster seats were reduced, the number of Scottish Parliament seats would be reduced as well. However, come the time-I think that the noble and learned Lord was still Deputy First Minister-such a row was kicked up that the proposal for a reduction in Scottish seats was abandoned, but the reduction in the Westminster seats still went ahead. Then the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, fought for the retention of the status quo on seats-God forbid that they reduced the Scottish Parliament seats. Along with some in the Labour Party, it has to be said, the then Deputy First Minister was in the forefront on behalf of the Liberals fighting for the retention of every single Scottish Parliament seat, and the Westminster seats were reduced.

Now we have the situation where the same noble and learned Lord is fighting to reduce the seats. It does not affect him or his party as much as it affects the Labour Party. There is an element of, "Don't do as I do; do as I tell you to do". It rankles a bit when you have somebody behaving like that, because in Scotland we were told it was going to be a numbers exercise only, with 70-odd thousand constituents. This is a similar experience to what is going to happen to boundaries and constituencies throughout England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland if this proposal goes ahead. It has happened already in microcosm in Scotland. We were told it was only about numbers, that communities do not count and that there would be lines drawn on a map to count numbers, and that is what happened. The constituency that I happened to represent at the time-I had the core of Rutherglen, Cambuslang and Halfway-was amalgamated with Blantyre and Burnbank. Then because of the numbers and drawing lines on a map exercise, to save the Scottish Parliament seats being reduced-to save the party of the then Deputy First Minister having its

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seats reduced-the town of Hamilton was halved, and Hamilton West came into the Rutherglen seat and became part of Rutherglen and Hamilton West. The other half of Hamilton town went in to join Clydesdale and became Lanark and Hamilton East. That is what happened, and I went at that time from 53,000 constituents to 74,000 or 75,000, and now that seat contains 77,000 electors.

There has been great discussion here about whether it makes any difference or not. I went through it and it does make a difference. I knew and know every single street in those three communities I have mentioned: Rutherglen, Cambuslang and Halfway. I was the MP for Rutherglen and Hamilton West for just under five years and I am quite convinced there were some streets in those three extra areas-Blantyre, Burnbank and Hamilton West-that I had never been in, whereas I prided myself on having delivered leaflets in every street in the former boundaries of the constituency I represented. It may be an intellectual or esoteric thing but I thought that I lost something. I knew that part of my constituency much better. That was not just because I was born and brought up there. It was more compact. You could get around it easier and quicker. People knew you and the area. The extra 25,000 constituents plus those from the extended area-because it was not quite rural but it was certainly less urbanised than parts of the Rutherglen area-made a difference. It was only five years but I still believe that I did not get to know that area as well as I would have liked to.

4.30 am

This is what is coming to constituencies. "Warn" is a heavy word but I certainly advise that what MPs face is even worse than that because of what is facing their constituencies. The town of Hamilton has never been the same since it was split between two constituencies. I always felt guilty that half of Hamilton town was put into Rutherglen purely and simply to make up the numbers. If you talk to people in Hamilton, they are still annoyed and angry and they feel that their sense of belonging to Hamilton has been badly damaged. We are talking about a ruler across a map. The process was about numbers only and Hamilton was halved for the first time in its at least 170-year history as a Hamilton-based constituency.

Folk might say that it does not make any difference. I advise your Lordships' House that I came through it. I saw, experienced and still watch it and it is absolutely wrong. The impact on communities throughout the country from this, as well as from the extra 25,000 or 26,000 constituents-which might be less in England; I know that there are wide variations-will be quite drastic. I like to think that people in Rutherglen, Cambuslang and Halfway could get to me any time they wanted. My phone number was in the book and is still in the book. Folk knew where I stayed and came to the door. It was just like being a councillor-and they all knew me when I was a councillor. That is the identification that MPs and former MPs know they have established with their constituencies.

I hope that I will not be accused of overstating the case but that is going to be, at the very least, severely damaged under these proposals because the constituency

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connection will be destroyed. If anybody has any doubts of that, they can come to the town of Hamilton. I will not need to set anybody up. Speak to anybody from Hamilton and they will immediately say, "This is terrible. The town does not feel the same. We haven't got a united voice". My parliamentary neighbour, Jimmy Hood, and I did our best to try to make sure that we co-operated to represent the town of Hamilton as a whole. However, it becomes disjointed through reality because you are going through different bits of the constituency at different times. It affects constituencies in the way that I have described.

I have a fondness for remembering the role that the Liberals played, especially the then Deputy First Minister. The Scotland Act was the settled will of the Scottish people-that was fine-but the Liberals fought tooth and nail to retain their Scottish Parliament seats. Again, it is "Don't do as I do; do as I tell you to do". All MPs-it does not matter whether they are Conservative, Labour or Liberal-will feel the effect on their constituents and there will be a backlash in years to come.

Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I am reluctant to intervene in this debate because I have spent a lot of time over the last few days listening to people talk about this issue. However, I think that the points that have been raised by my noble friends, especially those with experience in another place, should be taken very seriously. I have been moved by the trip down memory lane from my noble friends Lord Snape, Lord Grocott and Lord Rooker to remember many of the times that we had when we first arrived in another place in 1974, when there were 630 Members of Parliament. A few of us were new and we had to learn the ropes. At that time we were perhaps the first of a new generation who actually understood what the role of MPs would be in the future. I remember, when I suggested that I would have an office in the constituency, that many of my more senior colleagues told me I was creating a rod for my own back and that this was not something that was done. I should go to Members' Lobby and the post office, pick up my post and look through it, discard what I could and do a cursory note to the rest saying that their opinion or their problem had been noted. Things have changed very dramatically, as noble friends have explained.

Part of the problem is that we are starting this whole process from the wrong end. It is like looking down a telescope. We are talking about what voting systems should be. We are talking about the number of MPs and nobody is talking about the function of the House of Commons and the role that Members of Parliament have to, and ought to, play. When we come on to later debates, including the relationship between this House and another place, all those fundamental questions will have to be asked again. The Government are introducing a whole series of piecemeal changes which, put together, are totally rewriting the British constitution without anyone stepping back and looking at the overall impact. I think that is probably one of the most serious consequences and to discuss the number of MPs in isolation from all the other issues is just ridiculous. I am sure that the new Members who came into the House of Commons last year-something

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like 35 per cent of all Members were new at the last election-do not yet realise the full implications that this Bill will have on them, not least, as has been pointed out today, by the completely ridiculous suggestion that you should have boundary changes every five years.

My noble friend Lord McAvoy has just outlined the very dramatic consequences that can come from a boundary revision. I, likewise, have gone through boundary changes in both the constituencies I represented. In Bolton West, which was my home town-very much in the same way that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, was talking about the area he knew-identifying with your constituency was actually the key to providing the kind of service that was needed. Politics comes into this of course and unfortunately in 1983 I lost that seat, partly because there were new boundary changes. Then I represented Dewsbury, which is a former textile town. It is very compact and very close to the next-door town of Batley. There is a great rivalry but they are very close and have exactly the same kind of problems-a declining woollen industry, difficult housing issues and a lot of immigration and consequent issues. When it came to the boundary changes in 1992, the Boundary Commission decided that certain things should happen.

In supporting my noble friend Lord Snape in his probing amendment, I am not saying that the boundaries we have at the moment are absolutely perfect. We have all had discussions or disputes or appeared at boundary reviews trying to put our views as to why certain parts of a constituency should be here or there. What happens when you have a boundary review is that those of us who felt strongly about it could make the case. I could make the case as to why certain parts of Kirklees-because under local government reorganisation many years ago Dewsbury, along with Batley, had gone into Kirklees-should be in with Dewsbury or in with Huddersfield next door or even with Batley. Local knowledge, based on where people are working, where children go to school and where the bus routes are, is vital. What you should be creating is not a constituency with an arbitrary number of constituents but a constituency that has an identity-a community that can identify with the Member of Parliament who is going to represent them. I think that is the overriding consideration. My overriding concern is not whether the number is 650, 630 or-with due respect to my noble friend-640; it is whether anyone as an individual Member of Parliament can serve their constituency because of that very significant constituency link.

There will still be problems. There will still be issues because boundaries at the moment are not perfect. I have had the difficult experience-as I suggest many others have had-where boundaries sometimes lose a little enclave and people in that area think that you are their Member of Parliament. You have to tell them very carefully and often very cautiously, because they may be very upset, that actually you cannot represent them or take up their issue. However, if overall you can identify with that area then I think that it is likely that you will provide a better service for your constituency and your constituency will know who to go to and what to demand from you. I think that is key in terms of what we should be doing today.

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I was very interested, however, in what the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said and the question he posed about the statistics and how you work it out. This again is part of the problem. We do not have the essential building blocks and analysis in place to accept what the Government are suggesting or indeed to reject it. We are taking ideas that have come from nowhere, it seems, and we are being told that we should in fact have lines on maps. I agree with my noble friend Lady Smith that the Government should not be setting these arbitrary lines. In a sense it reminds me of days of empire when countries went round the world carving up Africa and saying that a line should be the boundary between two countries. Just think of some of the problems that led to later. I think we are storing up many problems in the future and think it is really very significant that many of the questions that have been asked cannot be answered.

As I mentioned earlier, Dewsbury is a small industrial town with its own character and issues. Part of the time I was the MP there-in one incarnation because the boundaries changed very dramatically-Dewsbury had attached to it two rural wards from another part of Kirklees, wards which actually had been in different constituencies over many boundary reviews. This was a very middle-class area, very rural, and when I held surgeries there few people came. Why? They all wrote letters. Basically, they wrote letters about planning issues, very often saying that they did not want things to be built in that area. However, when I had a surgery in Dewsbury it was there for hours and there would be lots of people there. Have a surgery on a similar day out of town in a rural area and somebody might wander in to talk about something and have a chat, but basically when people had a problem there they wrote and later they used the internet, and now it will all be the internet.

I think that this is a very ill advised Bill. It is going to store up many problems in the future. It is going to destabilise how Members of Parliament work in the future if they are going to be in a constant state of revolution and I hope that my noble friend gets some answers to his questions.

4.45 am

Lord Myners: My Lords, I speak as someone who did not have experience in the other place. I have been struck throughout this debate by the number of contributors who sat in the other place and the informed experience that they were able to share with this House in talking about this issue. They have also demonstrated the great skills of those who have worked in the other House-their ability to bring persuasive arguments together in a concise, efficient and articulate manner. However, I did not sit in the other place; I joined your Lordships' House in October 2008, at the peak of the banking crisis.

I would like to follow up something that was said by my noble friend Lord Rooker. He mentioned the somewhat intemperate interview that the Leader of the House gave to Sky Television. I was rather impressed by the Leader of the House when I arrived in this House; he was then the Leader of the Opposition. He was rather posh-the sort of person I expected to find

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in the Lords. He was courteous, considerate and knowledgeable of the etiquette and protocols of the House. I fear that some of those qualities left him during the early stages of today's debate. I was struck at one point, for instance, when he said he had heard "nothing new" from Members in their contributions to the debate.

I have sat on the Front Bench occasionally, taking forward rather tedious but complex legislation, and the temptation to turn and natter to your colleagues alongside you or behind you is high. However, I always tried to resist this temptation, because to do so would have been a discourtesy to the House. Yet that was precisely what the Leader of the House was doing, so when he said "I've heard no new arguments", it was probably because he was not listening to the arguments that were coming from the House. That strikes me as a great act of discourtesy to the House from the Leader. I hope that if he is of intemperate mood at the moment-and the Sky interview might suggest that-we can look upon this as a short aberration, and the great respect I had for this man because of his poshness will return in due course.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: It would not matter if he were in an intemperate mood now, because it is not his shift.

Viscount Astor: Is the noble Lord going to address the amendment or just make a speech on a totally different issue?

Lord Myners: Of course I am addressing the amendment; it is good to see the noble Viscount in his place at this particular time of the debate. One of the things that I found difficult was getting into this debate, probably because I kept waiting for the other side to stand up and express a view. Of course they did not, and my own colleagues rose to speak.

Lord Kinnock: Before my noble friend leaves the question relating to the Leader of the House, which is directly germane to this amendment and the way in which the body of amendments have been treated, and is therefore, even in the strictest terms, very much in order, I put it to him that a man who is innately courteous, considerate and convivial, as well as being Conservative-all the Cs-might not have changed in his nature. What has changed is the environment in which he is operating. Now in 2011, with contentious legislation before us, the Leader of the House has an automatic government majority for the first time since 1999 and the departure of the hereditary Peers. This can lead to a hubristic reaction to criticism and cross-questioning. It might be followed classically by Nemesis, or the Leader of the House might learn better.

Lord Myners: I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Kinnock for that perceptive observation. In some ways, some of the qualities that he has noted were equally evident this evening from those on the Liberal Benches, who are clearly very uncomfortable. They are not speaking to amendments but, goodness me, just

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look at the way the two of them at the moment, and at various times up to five or six, have sat there looking very exercised about the act in which they are presently involved.

Let me talk a little, when speaking to this amendment, as I am, about my experiences as a junior Minister, which I have shared with some junior Ministers who have recently been appointed to the Government. One of the things that struck me was that you spent the first half hour of every morning topping and tailing letters. I was doing over 200 letters a day that had been passed to Ministers from Members of Parliament on behalf of their constituents. You got to know the Member of Parliament as a result of this process. You got to notice that some MPs were very assiduous. They followed up your reply. Others did not. I was struck by the difference between the performance of the best compared with the worst. The worst would send you a covering letter that was pre-printed, with a pre-printed scribble on the bottom. Others would already have read the letter, reviewed the issues and sought guidance, and would then follow up on the responses.

Lord Snape: Some of us who wrote letters to Ministers sometimes got the impression that Ministers never read the replies either.

Lord Myners: I have to say to my noble friend that, when I first came into government, I inherited nearly 3,000 unanswered letters. As I was the most junior Minister in the Treasury, these letters were pushed down the chain. Noble friends from the other place will realise how this game is played. As far as a junior Minister is concerned, those letters came to me. Whether they were addressed to the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, they seemed to come to me, and I tried to move some of them on to someone else, but there was no one below me in the Treasury. If I did not read all the replies, it was not due to a lack of effort, although I was struck by the great difference between Members of Parliament who took this role seriously and those who did not. I see that in the context, as my noble friend Lady Taylor has said, of this legislation being carried through the Commons largely on the votes of people who are very new to Parliament.

Lord Tyler: I am grateful to the noble Lord for sitting down; I have the greatest respect for him as a fellow Cornishman. He was lecturing the House earlier about discourtesy. I wonder whether he recalls that it is the normal practice in this House to address the House rather than to keep his colleagues awake by turning to them.

Lord Myners: I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, for that assistance. I recognise that I am very new, and there, once again, I have made a terrible mistake, for which I apologise.

Lord Winston: I find it distasteful to criticise the Leader of the House while he is not in the Chamber, but I think the Front Bench said something that was

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very relevant to what the noble Lord was saying. I think the word that was used to describe our behaviour in the Chamber today was "irresponsible". That is the issue. It is completely responsible, because surely we see a major constitutional issue here, and we feel that it is our duty to do what we can to oppose this. The trivial intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is quite inappropriate when we are actually trying to tease out what our responsibility is. I hope the noble Lord will forgive me for interrupting him, but it does seem that we should make that point.

Lord Myners: I note the observation and the support that my noble friend Lord Winston offers in that respect, but I am also sufficiently new here still to be content to be guided by all Members of the House in the appropriate courtesies of the House. I was speaking to the variable performance of Members of the other place as I saw it from a ministerial position, which led me to ask what the appropriate size of a constituency was.

Earlier in our debate this evening, we had an extremely interesting contribution from my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford, who talked about the principles that might determine the size of a constituency. I mostly come from Cornwall, as does the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. I had always understood that one reason why constituencies in Cornwall were smaller than elsewhere was the geographical distance within the constituency and the time taken to travel to and from the constituency. Of course, my political views were formed in my teens when I was at school in Truro, when a journey from London to Truro would have taken 10 or 12 hours on the A30, and it seemed to make good sense to have smaller constituencies.

I find it very difficult to know where my decision will finally lie. I listened to the debate in the House on the size of the other place, but it seems to me that this decision requires care and attention to the colour, texture, features and particular needs of different constituencies.

I make one final observation from my experience as a junior Minister in the previous Government about the other place's difficulty dealing with the detail of legislation. This is partially a reflection-I do not for one minute suggest that people in the other place are not diligent-of the additional burdens that are now placed on Members' time in the other place. Members of Parliament are now increasingly looked to by their constituents to solve every issue relating to local communities and families, and will probably be even more so now that this Government are stripping resources out of local government. Is it not interesting that when government has abundant resources, it centralises, but when government cuts costs, it decentralises in order to push the burden of that cost cutting on to local authorities? The pressures on Members of Parliament in the other place will become even greater as a consequence of the changes in economic management.

When it came to legislation with which I was involved on the Front Bench, I thought at first that it would be helpful to read Hansard from the other place to guide me on what the issues were likely to be. I found that the only person who really challenged the detail of

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legislation on finance was the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, who struck me in some cases as the only informed opponent of legislation in detail for which I was responsible. It certainly did not receive sufficient attention in the House of Commons.

I recognise that I bring a very limited perspective here, and there is much more that I will wish to say later in the debate about issues relating to Cornwall, where the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was a representative for many years in the other place, but from my perspective as a Minister and as a person who is proud to be a Member of this new House, I am deeply concerned that an arbitrary figure has been picked out of the air. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, putting his hand up and pulling that figure down on Second Reading. I thought that that summed up the amount of thought the Government had put into this matter. The people of this country should reasonably expect the number of constituencies to be determined carefully by an independent body, as in the past-a body whose decisions we can all support.

Lord Boateng: My Lords, I find myself energised by the contribution of my noble friend Lord Myners, at a time when I thought only a double espresso would do. His contribution has woken me up and got me thinking. We owe him a debt of gratitude for building on the contribution of my noble friend who moved this amendment. I hesitate to use the term "GOATs", because it implies that the rest of us are sheep and separating the sheep from the goats, but from time to time a fresh look at these issues is useful from someone who is not as inured to and hardened against the political processes as those of us old sweats. We have had that this morning from my noble friend Lord Myners.

My noble friend got me thinking about the challenges that we face in considering this Bill, particularly this section of it, and in defining what exactly we want from constituencies and from individual Members of Parliament and their relationship with those constituencies. It would be sad if those observing these proceedings were to take the view that we were polarised across the political process on different sides of the House about the special relationship between constituencies and Members of Parliament, and about the value of proceeding not by arbitrary diktat but by considered inquiry based on the evidence.

5 am

I looked at what had been said by members of the party opposite in the other place, who helped us in more reflective and considered times to address the need for reform. There is a need for reform. It would be quite wrong to seek to divide this House on the basis that those on this side of it were against all reform, were complacent and self-satisfied as regards existing conditions, and that the energy and drive for progress and reform came only from the Benches opposite. What does energise us on this side of the House is the need for reflection, evidence and a capacity to be, as it were, almost above the fray in determining what the national interest is.

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I found a useful contribution to the debate in a paper presented to the parliamentary affairs journal of Oxford University Press entitled, 'Far Too Elaborate About So Little': New Parliamentary Constituencies for England, by Ron Johnston, David Rossiter and Charles Pattie, three academic, impartial observers of our system. They examined very carefully the views across our Houses about how one should go about identifying and defining constituencies and forming them around viable communities with a link with their elected representatives.

The article referred to a contribution from a Conservative Member of Parliament in a Wiltshire constituency on the removal of wards from the large Salisbury constituency. I think that I know who this particular Member of Parliament is but as his name is not cited in the document I do not want to embarrass him by naming him. He loves his constituency and his party but loves his country and the parliamentary system more than both those things. In his oral evidence to the inspector at the inquiry he said that he did not wish to lose a single elector from the constituency. That is something which all of us who have served in the other place understand. Whatever issues we may have with individuals who are perhaps persistent in their letter writing-some of them use green ink, which is always a sign-and appear on a regular basis at one's constituency surgeries, one grows fond of them. They are part and parcel of the life of the constituency, they have a view and they care and you welcome them and do not want to lose such people through boundary changes.

So the local Member did not wish to lose a single elector from his constituency, but he accepted-and we have all had to do this from time to time-the absolute inevitability of the restructuring. He gave a long historical account of the constituency. Frankly, for those of us who served in the other place-and indeed noble Lords such as the noble Lord, Lord Myners, have observed those who served-you actually become quite attached to your constituency and its history. It is important when someone comes in from outside the area to adjudicate on the nature of the constituency boundaries as to whether that person understands the history. One feels duty-bound to go on about it sometimes at length. However, having given this long historical account, he concluded:

"It is not in my nature to resist sensible reform".

All Members on this side of the House can empathise with that. It is not in our nature to resist sensible reform, and I hope that the Minister and his colleagues on the Benches opposite accept that fact, stated in good faith. He goes on to say:

"If it is a judgment of those charged with the care of our democracy"-

That relates exactly to a point that has raised its head time and time again in the course of our debates today. Care for democracy is not the business of Members of Parliament alone. There are advantages to having another source of influence and power outside these Houses of Parliament which has the final and determinate say.

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We on this side of the House are not saying there is no role for Members of Parliament-far from it-in determining the number of seats. Sure, we have concerns, which my noble friend has sought to tease out in his amendment, about the arbitrary fixing of those numbers of seats, but we do not say that it is a matter for others apart from ourselves alone. However, we recognise that there is an advantage, as a Conservative Member says, of the judgment of those charged with the care of our democracy having a final and determinate say. He goes on to say:

"If it is the judgment of those charged with the care of our democracy that what is proposed is in the national interest, then, provided they will give due consideration to our requests, so be it".

What is important is the proviso,

What is so offensive about what is proposed by some Members opposite? I do not believe that all Members opposite actually believe in what they are putting before this House. I just do not believe it; because if they have had the experience, which I respect because I served alongside them for many years-experience which we have all had with our constituencies-they know that provided there is an opportunity to express local concerns to ensure that local conditions are taken into account, and that it is not arbitrary and not fixed, and provided there is a space to do that, at the end of the day they are prepared to take whatever it is that emerges from the process. What is not acceptable is this arbitrary figure arrived at we know not how.

Having quoted that Conservative Member of Parliament, I shall move on briefly. We do not want excessively to go down memory lane-

Lord Myners: Oh!

Lord Boateng: I am not going to rise to the temptation that the noble Lord, Lord Myners, casts in front of me. I do not want excessively to go down memory lane, although I want to go down it a bit, because it would demonstrate the point that I am seeking to make. These are not always partisan matters in which, in the course of a local inquiry, one party takes one view and another party takes another, and the MPs divide accordingly. I think of the last inquiry that I was involved in. It was seeking to determine where a particular council housing estate with a lot of problems, should finally fall in the revision of the boundaries in the London Borough of Brent. I put in my submission, which was that it should not come into my constituency. The then right honourable Member for Brent North, the very distinguished Conservative, Sir Rhodes Boyson, put in his submission, based on his having represented that part of the constituency in the past. The then member for Brent East, Ken Livingstone, put in his submission.

It was interesting that I, the Member of Parliament for Brent South, and the Member of Parliament for Brent North, took one view, and the Member of Parliament for Brent East took another. It was Conservative and Labour on the one hand and the Member of Parliament for Brent East on the other. He

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arrived at his representations to the inquiry without any reference to me, and I arrived at my conclusions without any reference to Sir Rhodes Boyson. However, the two of us took a particular view of the needs of that constituency in an area that we both knew very well, because at the time both of us had done a lot of work in that ward. The Member of Parliament for Brent East had not done as much work in that ward, but he was absolutely determined that the ward should not pass into his constituency.

That is the sort of representation that Members on all sides of this House will know and understand, because it reflects the business of local democracy, and meeting local needs and concerns. I wonder if noble Lords on the other side of the House-I talk not just of Conservative Members but also of Liberal Democrat Members in the coalition-believe in their hearts that losing that link is a price worth paying for such political gain as they may arrive at in the short term. I suspect that some of them do not. One of our functions in the course of our debate on these issues must be to tease out those Members on the other side, and the issues that relate to them, so that they can come clean about how they feel and there is no longer this omerta on their side, where they fear to speak out for whatever reason and are encouraged to be absent so we do not hear the other side.

Before resuming my place, I draw to the attention of noble Lords an issue that has come up today and that I hope might persuade Members opposite to pause and think a little. In today's Evening Standard, there appears the headline:

"London tops league table of cities open to foreigners".

It goes on to point out what many of us who represents London seats know well:

"London is the world's most 'open' city because of its welcoming attitude to foreigners and liberal immigration policies, according to a new league table".

The article continues:

"The capital beat New York, Los Angeles, Dusseldorf and Toronto in an assessment by the British Council of cities' ability to attract and benefit from international populations. Among the 54 factors considered"-

in arriving at this league table-

5.15 am

The article goes on to quote people-including the Conservative Mayor, Boris Johnson-who express concern that anything should occur that would interfere in any way with this welcoming approach to migration. It quotes London First and university chiefs and then refers to someone else who is objective and independent; namely, Professor Mike Hardy, the head of partnerships at the British Council, who states:

"Openness is a real advantage for cities if they are pursuing plans to be internationally connected and play international roles".

The article goes on to look at some factors that influence openness. This bears directly on the amendment that we are considering. While some factors influencing

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openness are beyond the direct control of cities, many are well within the control or immediate influence of city governments, and the city's identity and character. In the course of this debate, not just in relation to London but to a number of other cities in our country, we have heard reference to identity and character as forming an important part of the basis on which constituency boundaries might be drawn up. They include housing, culture and, importantly, the kind of local democracy it practises and the forms of participation that it encourages.

For those of us who are London Members, and those who are Members in large metropolitan cities, the reality is that a large proportion of the population are foreigners who have no eligibility to vote but who are a welcome part of our communities. Quite rightly at this time, they draw on the services of Members of Parliament and elected representatives. There will not be a single former Member of the other place in the Chamber this evening who does not know that in constituency surgeries, one is as likely to see somebody who is not eligible to vote-not just by virtue of appearance or otherwise on the electoral roll, but simply because they are not citizens or Commonwealth subjects-as somebody who is. However, quite rightly, those people find in a Member of Parliament in their constituency surgery someone who is welcoming, someone who has time for them and someone who deals with their specific problems. That contributes to making London the open city that it is, it contributes to making London top of this league table and it causes other great cities in our country to be magnets for bright, skilled, energetic people from all over the world who will, from time to time, have to call on the services of their local Member of Parliament.

In the course of our deliberations on the Bill, we will address this issue in a number of amendments. I have proposed one that states that we should look at the census rather than simply the electoral roll when we come to determine constituency sizes and boundaries. This is not by any means a view that has not in the past been given the care, reflection and consideration that is it due in circumstances that were not charged with the sort of arbitrary numerical approach that is now being adopted by the parties opposite. Most recently, a report to the Committee on Standards in Public Life, The Electoral Commission and the Redistribution of Seats, was submitted by David Butler and Iain McLean. What they do, usefully, is to look at the arguments-the pros and cons-for viewing the census as the basis for redistribution in the future. They make the point-rightly, Members of the Committee may think-that the census should in principle provide a most accurate count of the UK resident population. They go on to indicate where the move from electorate to population as the basis for drawing up constituency boundaries would be hotly controversial. The authors refer to the situation in Northern Ireland, where they believe there would be considerable controversy if we were to make that move. Nevertheless, they say that this is something that ought to be out there-that the census, with all its limitations, will potentially have a role to play.

The tragedy of the approach being taken by Members opposite is that we will not have the opportunity to have that debate. That cannot be right, and I ask, even

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at this late stage and late hour, that, in responding, the Minister goes beyond the negative and the narrow partisan and party-political point-scoring that I fear has, from time to time, characterised the response of some Members opposite. I ask that he goes to the merit of the arguments because, if you do that, you find that there is something to which we need to give serious consideration-maintaining this country's position in the global democratic league tables. That is what we all seek to do on this side of the Committee and that is why I commend my noble friend's amendment.

Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, with my background, noble Lords will understand if I gaze at the Clock and have in mind the working time directive. Despite the allegations of filibustering levelled at this side of the Chamber, I believe that the debate on the Bill has been healthy and good-good for the House itself. It has been healthy because it has explored some of the principles on which this House stands and completes its tasks. Therefore, the tension in the debate on the Bill comes about because the Opposition are doing their job. They are rigorously scrutinising the Bill and holding the Government to account, as they should.

In my relatively short time in your Lordships' House, I have heard many debates on the role and function of the House of Lords. However, what we have not done with the same regularity is to look at how the House operates and delivers its remit. It is very clear that the long-established conventions are recognised and understood. It is also clear that something is missing in the way that the Bill is being handled-it is that element called the usual channels. As a relatively new Member, it took me some time to understand the importance of the usual channels. However, I now understand how they operate. The usual people meet in the usual place, they discuss the usual agenda and, as usual, they emerge with agreement-not the usual agreement but specific agreement.

I have no problem with the usual channels. Indeed, I built a failed career around the usual channels. One of the issues before the House is the size of constituencies. As you look back, you think, "I've heard this before; I've read this before". I recall that, in the charter presented in another place in 1848 by Feargus O'Connor, the Chartist Member of Parliament for Nottingham, equity of constituency numbers was one of the key elements. Indeed, it was quite revolutionary. He advocated annual Parliaments, which is a step too far for me. If you look at the charter, MPs' pay was an issue. We have been here before. What they did not have then, but we have today, is the advantage of the usual channels. Above all else, we cannot afford to lose that mechanism for resolving issues and maintaining the culture and traditions of your Lordships' House. That is absolutely sacrosanct.

I hope, therefore, that we can learn lessons from our predecessors in many instances. It is right that this House and the Opposition should hold the Government to account. It is right that we should ask for justification of all decisions that are being made. However, in the end, I am sure that, as we move into another day and seek to look at today's agenda, we will not stray too

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far. We will remember precisely what the issues are about. I, for one, hope that the usual channels will find their way to their rightful place and deliver what is expected from your Lordships' House.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I can be fairly brief. I thank my noble friend Lord Snape and all the others who have spoken so well in this debate. I know the Minister came on shift just before this debate began; I do not know how much of the last debate he heard. I do not know if he heard my brief address before taking over. I will make just a couple of points. From the many important points that have been made in this debate, the real principle has been the relationship between a Member of Parliament and his or her constituency, about which many-some with great experience of the other place and some without-have spoken.

There are two points that I want to ask the noble and learned Lord about. First, there is the issue, which arises again, about the fact that Parliament has not set an exact number of Members of Parliament since, we believe, 1832. Rules that have provided pretty adequately in earlier years-most latterly, in 1986-have been very carefully and sensibly worded. It is not as though Parliament does not give a clue as to the area in which the number of MPs should be, but it refuses to give an exact figure. On this side, we think that is an excellent thing and believe that the exact number should be a matter for the independent boundary review. It also acts as a sort of security key and means that the Government cannot be criticised for having got through Parliament an exact figure. Why is it that the Government want to change that well-established principle?

5.30 am

The second issue I want to raise is the one about lowering the number of Members of Parliament to 600. We believe that the policy of reducing the House of Commons to 600 seats has so far been proposed without, I am afraid, any coherent explanation, any coherent analysis, or indeed any proper consideration. Many voices across the political spectrum-in both Houses and outside-have criticised the Government's failure up till now to explain why 600 seats is the appropriate level at which to fix membership of the other place. I repeat a quote that the Minister will have heard before from the Political and Constitutional Reform Select Committee of the other place, which concluded in October,

"There may be a case for reducing the number of Members of the House to 600, but the Government has not made it".

The Government have not explained how this figure corresponds to the role of Members of Parliament, about which we have heard in this debate, or what that role itself should be. They have not explained how this figure will enable Members of Parliament to provide a better service to their constituents or a more effective performance as parliamentarians. I say to the Minister that it is time that the Government at last make the case for why the number is 600, and why there should be a lowering of the number of Members of Parliament from 650 to 600. One thing I am sure of is that the noble and learned Lord will, as he customarily does, answer in his reasoned and measured way, unlike-I am afraid-some others on the Front Bench.

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Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, at one point in the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said that he wondered if Ministers would bring themselves to look at it again. In responding to the debate for the second time in this area of discussion, I am obliged to look at it again. It may come as no surprise that I still believe that the 600 proposed in this Bill is what the Committee should support. The amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Snape, would reduce the number of current constituencies in the other place by 10 and result in 640 constituencies, which would reduce the number by 50. It was suggested-I am sure that it was just a slip of the tongue-that somehow or other the Government draw up the boundaries. That is clearly not the case. That will still be a matter for the independent boundary commission. Consideration of the workload of Members of Parliament has been a strong feature of the debate on this amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, talked about trips down memory lane, and the noble Lord, Lord Myners, gave us a more recent trip down memory lane than some of those who have served in the other place did. I can understand why I might be tempted to follow that course, but I do not particularly want to go too far down memory lane. However, I think it is important that this debate has been informed by that experience. I identified with the first part of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, about the different range of what MPs are expected to do and the different ways in which they go about doing it. It certainly struck a chord with me when he said, just as you think you have heard the last of what you might be asked to do, something comes along the following week that you could not have conceived of; I am sure that most Members in the other place have had that experience at some time or other.

The noble Lord, Lord Winston, asked what we are requiring of Members of Parliament and talked about the importance of mathematical formulae in his work. However, I think it was made clear in a debate to which I contributed almost 12 hours ago that mathematical formulae do not actually work in situations like this. As the noble Lord, Lord Myners, said, there is variable performance. In some cases the variable performance will be because of different personalities of the Members of Parliament or different circumstances in their constituencies. If you represented a rural constituency, how could you ever factor in the possibility that there might be another outbreak of BSE or foot and mouth disease? It is simply impossible. At the end of the day, the people who make the judgments as to how well or how poorly an individual Member of Parliament discharges the many different responsibilities on him or her are the voters. There is no job description, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said. That is why any way of trying to boil it down to some mathematical formula simply will not work.

Lord Howarth of Newport: If mathematical formulae do not work, why are the Government determined to impose a quota of 76,000 voters per constituency?

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The noble Lord is not comparing like with like. I said it is impossible to work out a mathematical formula relating to what the workload

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of an individual Member of Parliament is. I think it is ultimately a matter of judgment as to what level MPs can best serve their constituents.

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, asked why the Government wish to fix the number; previously, the Boundary Commission has rules but the number is not fixed. The present legislation states:

"The electorate of any constituency shall be as near the electoral quota as is practicable".

It could be argued that is a more stringent target than the range we put forward under the Bill, which is plus or minus 5 per cent. However, this requirement is then balanced against other rules and factors. The result of the overall scheme is that the equality and fairness in the weight of a vote, which is enshrined as a principle in rule 5 as it stands at the moment, ends up as one consideration among many. Then, of course, when Boundary Commission recommendations are debated, political parties, which are usually the principal players in the consultation process, use any factor that they possibly can to advance electoral interests. It is also of interest that the British Academy report on the Bill notes,

"This new set of rules that the Boundary Commissions must apply is clear and consistent",


We have discussed on more than one occasion the issue of the present arrangements whereby there has been continual creep-there has been one exception, since 1950, when the reduction of the Scottish Members brought the number down; in every other location it has gone up. I simply say to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, that my recollection is that Hamilton was split in two long before that reduction happened following devolution, because I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, was Member for Hamilton South, and he stood down and fought a by-election before there was any change in the Westminster boundaries. I also point out that, whereas the reduction proposed in this Bill, from 650 to 600, is a reduction of some 7 per cent, the reduction that occurred in Scotland following devolution, from 72 to 59, was a reduction of some 18 per cent, which is twice as great as is proposed under this Bill.

I said earlier that both parties in this Government made commitments in the election to reduce the number. I will not go over in detail again the context in which the Liberal Democrats made theirs because it has been explained. Nevertheless, the background involved seeking to reduce the numbers. We have said that to go too far may lead to even greater upheaval and disruption. On the other hand, as for the figure of 76,000, which I have mentioned before, about a third of existing seats are within 5 per cent of this figure-on either side-and this means it is within the existing range of experience of many Members of Parliament. I cannot accept what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said; that, somehow or other, the number of 76,000 weakens the link between Members of Parliament and their constituents. The fact is that a third of existing seats are within 5 per cent of 76,000, on either side, and no one has suggested

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that that particular figure means that that link does not currently exist. We have proposed a modest cut. As I said, it is a reduction that was proposed in the manifestos of both the coalition parties. I also note-and did not pick up before-that the noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking, indicated before that this House has in the past supported a Private Member's Bill to reduce the number; but of course this particular clause, when it was in the other place, was substantially supported by Members in the other place.

That is not an excuse for it not being examined in your Lordships' House in this Committee. Nevertheless, those who are most directly affected by this actually endorsed the proposal by a substantial majority. For completeness, I would also say to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who raised the point about the increase in the size of the Bill, this was done by government amendments adding schedules to the Bill, made in the other place, rather than being included in the Bill at introduction. It was to allow time to discuss the details of them with devolved Administrations, electoral administrators and the Electoral Commission. In any event, I think it is fair to point out-and this may be the reason why the press have not latched onto it-that the vast majority of time taken so far to debate this Bill has been spent on the clauses and not the schedules, and the vast majority of amendments laid and debated have related to the clauses and not the schedules. I think that it is not comparing like with like to suggest that the doubling of the size of the Bill has led to the increased debates in the Committee of your Lordships' House. I think that the addition of the schedules by government amendment in the other place did not add to the time needed to debate the Bill there in any significant way.

If I have repeated myself, it is because many of the arguments have been similar. I have not addressed the points made with regard to the relationship between the number of Members in the other House and the number of Ministers. I have indicated before that the Government do think that it is a matter of proper debate. There are other amendments which we can come to and we can have a fuller debate. Likewise, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, that the point about using the census he has indicated himself in his amendment, and I am sure that he will understand if I do not detain the House in Committee at this time when there will be an opportunity in a further amendment to debate that. With those words, I rather hope that the noble Lord, Lord Snape, will withdraw his amendment.

Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I am not intervening on the Minister, but I am clarifying that in 1999, George Robertson resigned the Hamilton South seat and Bill Tynan fought the by-election. The boundaries were changed for the 2005 general election, when I took over.

Lord Snape: My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have participated in this debate. Again, it is instructive about the quality of your Lordships' House that, even at this unearthly hour of the day and on an amendment that followed a pretty similar one, we still had an exchange of views and some knowledgeable

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contributions, at least from this side of your Lordships' House. I am grateful to the Minister. It is a fact, as someone commented a moment or two ago, that if we do not particularly get enlightenment from this Minister, we get a bit more courtesy than we get from either the Leader of the House, who has not been seen-his shift obviously does not include nights-or from the noble Lord, Lord McNally, who sometimes gives the impression at the Dispatch Box of a grumpy version of Blackpool's famous resident, Les Dawson. He sits there gurning, whingeing and banging about from time to time, and snapping nastily at anybody who has the temerity to ask him questions, to which he quite obviously either does not know the answer or cannot be bothered to find out. Therefore it is pleasure at least to listen to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of-I have forgotten his title so I will just call him Lord Wallace. The noble and learned Lord is perhaps a better way of doing it.

Noble Lords: The nice Lord.

5.45 am

Lord Snape:Yes, Mr Nice versus Mr Nasty at the Dispatch Box. Lord Nice, fine. We will agree to that.

One or two questions were put to me, as the mover of the amendment, to which I would like to reply. First, any Member of your Lordships' House, and certainly any ex-Member of the other place, could handle a constituency of 90,000 people, as my noble friend Lord Grocott said. However, it illustrates that, even on five-year boundary reviews there is no guarantee that a constituency that starts off at 76,000 will not end up at somewhere like 90,000. The fact that my noble friend had that difficulty when he represented The Wrekin illustrates the problems that could be caused in future years. My noble friend Lord Winston, who is not in his place, put the question to me. He actually said that the blanket rule on the size of the constituency does not make sense; and, of course, he is right. No matter how well the nice Lord strings these replies together, the fact is that a constituency of 76,000, whether in an urban or a rural area, makes no real sense. As my noble friend Lord Winston said, some of the social problems in an urban area are enormous. Those of us who served in the other place know full well the variety of constituency problems that one deals with at a surgery. I do not pretend that it is any easier for predominantly Conservative Members of the other place who represent rural areas; it certainly will not be any easier with an electorate of 76,000. You need a tank full of fuel to get round the constituency on a Saturday morning.

Again, there is no real explanation from the Government as to how that figure has been arrived at and what is the common sense, if any, behind it. My noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon said, and I agree, that she disagreed with the other place, or any Government, setting numbers for constituencies. However, if we are to debate matters here, we have to table amendments like this. I am not wedded to the figure of 645; it just happened to be fairly close to the 650 proposed at present. My noble friend amply illustrated the difficulty, which will arise more and more often in

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bigger constituencies, of dealing with two local authorities, two health authorities and two different police forces. That makes the job far more difficult for a Member of the other place.

I do not want to repeat anything that I said in moving the amendment, but seeking from public funds the proper and adequate staffing to deal with that extra workload will not be an easy task. We can rely on the Daily Mail and its fellow newspapers to talk about how expensive democracy is becoming if and when adequate resources are provided for those who are to take on the extra workload.

My noble friend Lord Rooker pointed out quite correctly that there is no real definition of the job of a Member of Parliament. Knowing that I was going to participate in this debate, I was throwing out some papers from my house and found some details of a surgery I did on a Saturday morning 10 or 11 years ago before I left the other place. It was not particularly busy; it was one of five that I did that day; there were three housing cases, one about a hospital appointment, one case about bus services in the area, three immigration cases and someone seeking my assistance in getting a cherished number plate. That is a fairly wide set of skills that Members of Parliament are supposed to demonstrate on a Saturday morning.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: No questions of policy?

Lord Snape: No questions on policy. In my constituency, they were quite happy to leave that sort of nonsense to me. They regarded my job as solving their problems-quite rightly; in my view, that is what MPs' surgeries should do. On the very rare occasion that anyone came to discuss policy, they were usually from what my noble friend referred to as the green ink brigade, invariably from either the far left or the far right, and both of them got fairly short shrift in West Bromwich town hall.

Lord Kinnock: Or from outer space.

Lord Snape: Or on something, I think is the proper description. My noble friend Lady Taylor rightly talked about the role of the House of Commons and how individual constituents identify with their Member of Parliament. They will have enormous difficulty with these bigger constituencies. My noble friend Lord Rooker will remember that in the 1980s, either Central Television or ATV-I think it was Central Television at the time-conducted an opinion poll in the Birmingham and West Bromwich areas about MPs' identities. A regular opinion poll was done in my constituency, which was highly marginal, and in a marginal constituency in the East Midlands. I was fortunate. My noble friend Lord Rooker and I scored the highest recognition, with about 70 per cent, in our respective constituencies. Seven out of 10 people approached knew the name of their Member of Parliament.

In his case, it was because he was an extremely diligent and hard-working local MP. In my case, it was just that I was appearing on television fairly regularly in a programme called "Central Weekend".

Noble Lords: We remember it well.

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Lord Snape: Indeed. My noble friends may scoff, but it did me no harm at successive general elections, so I will plead guilty to that. I am not getting involved in the spat between my noble friend Lord McAvoy and the nice Lord who responded; these Scottish matters are not for me. My noble friend made his point as elegantly as always.

We have another similar amendment to follow, and I am sure that lots of new points will be made. Having listened to the Minister, I am sure that we can rely on his good temper and equanimity to get us through until breakfast.

Noble Lords: Lunch!

Lord Snape: Lunch, indeed. Until dinner, as far as some of my noble friends are concerned. Bearing in mind the equanimity with which the Minister replied, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 62 withdrawn.

Amendment 63

Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark

63: Clause 11, page 9, line 18, leave out "600" and insert "650"

Lord Kennedy of Southwark: The constitutional significance of the Bill cannot be overstated. It is very regrettable that there has been no pre-legislative scrutiny of a Bill on such important matters. The Government are in a pickle over this, and that is due to their way of handling the situation. That is clear in the tactics that they are deploying to try to force it through. It has been rammed through the Commons. I referred to members of the coalition in the other place who are opposed to specific measures in the Bill in my contribution on Second Reading. It is most regrettable that, despite repeated offers from the Labour Front Bench, no one has come forward to negotiate to move things forward sensibly. We will come to issues such as that of the Isle of Wight and Cornwall later, where there is much unhappiness on the coalition side of the House.

The Government's whole approach to this has been wrong. I wonder what the advice of the Foreign Office would be to any Government abroad who had just been elected and said to us, "We are considering changing the number of Members of Parliament elected to our House. Do you think that that would be a good idea?".

We have heard contributions from many noble Lords who have been Members in the other place about the work of Members of Parliament on Second Reading, and in debates on amendments moved in Committee. I have heard nothing from the government Front Bench to convince me that the work of Members of Parliament in the other place has not increased considerably. I was never a Member of the other House, but I recall, as a young Labour Party member and a constituent of Harriet Harman, helping her at her advice surgeries in the town halls in Camberwell and Walworth in the London Borough of Southwark on Friday nights nearly 28 years ago. They were packed with 60 or 70 people at

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a time with a whole variety of problems: housing, immigration and many other issues. That has only increased over time. That is only part of the important work that a Member of Parliament undertakes. I cannot see how any elector-any constituent-is better served by increasing the size of constituencies. The constituency of Peckham where I grew up is bounded by the constituencies of Southwark and Bermondsey, Dulwich and West Norwood, Lewisham and Deptford, and Vauxhall. All those constituencies have similar problems, and no voter living there could be served better by the proposals.

I very much agree with the comment made by my noble friend Lady McDonagh about the basis on which the Government have selected the figure of 600. It is because that number benefits the Conservative Party-or it believes that it does. My amendment will ensure that county and city boundaries can be respected by the Boundary Commission.

In the early 1990s, I was involved in the boundary inquiry in Coventry. I saw how the Boundary Commission got it wrong. The number of seats was being reduced from four to three, and it issued proposals putting together the Holbrooks ward of Coventry North West with the Longford ward of Coventry North East in the same constituency. It made no difference in outcome whether those two wards were in the same constituency or different constituencies. What the Boundary Commission had missed, looking at maps in London, was the Coventry to Nuneaton railway line, the A444 from junction 3 on the M6 leading into the city, and the two fields either side separating those two wards. The inquiry brought that out, the commission understood it, the proposals were changed and they remained in different constituencies. My amendment allows the commission to do that.

Have the Government sought the advice of IPSA on these matters? I understand that many MPs will not have a home, an office or staff in their constituency. If the boundaries keep changing every four or five years, there could be a considerable waste of public money with people moving around all the time to ensure that they are in their constituency.

I listened with great interest to the contribution of my noble friend Lady Billingham. She set out carefully the importance of community of interest. I recalled, as she spoke, the day that Donald Dewar came to support her in her election campaign in Corby. I met Donald at Kettering station and drove him to Corby. Donald was a great campaigner and we had a wonderful time. What made him chuckle was that he had travelled down from Scotland, had come to Corby and had met so many people from Glasgow and Lanarkshire. He knew some of the families and he got such a warm welcome. As my noble friend Lady Billingham said, younger people living there who had never been to Scotland in their lives spoke with what I can only describe as a Scottish accent. That was because of the nature and closeness of the community there. The proposals would ride roughshod over those communities.

I worked for many years in the East Midlands. It is a wonderful place, a wonderful part of the country, but I am very worried about the effect that the proposals

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will have on those communities. The East Midlands is a series of principal towns or cities and rural counties. The cities of Derby, Nottingham and Leicester are unitary authorities, and the MPs in Nottingham and Leicester are coterminous there. There are county towns, such as Chesterfield and the wonderful city of Lincoln. There are coalfield communities in Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and Leicestershire and there is the unique county of Rutland. My noble friend Lady Billingham also mentioned Northamptonshire, with its boot and shoe history-Doctor Martens in Wellingborough-and Weetabix in Kettering. The Government's proposals will do nothing for them.

In conclusion, my amendment would fix the number of seats at 650, which is a better number than that proposed by the Government. I thank my noble friends Lady McDonagh and Lord Snape.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, it is a great pleasure for me to make my first speech of the day. I was just thinking, as my noble friend Lord Kennedy was speaking, about some of the work that I have seen Members of Parliament do. I served for nearly four years on the Intelligence and Security Committee. A number of other Members here have done that. We met every Tuesday morning, and I used to see MPs turning up there regularly, Tuesday after Tuesday, as well as going in on a Monday to read the papers-we could not take them away because of their security level. That is inevitably some of the unseen work of Members of Parliament, yet vital work supervising the activities of MI5, MI6 and GCHQ.

I am not supposed to say much about the work of the intelligence agencies and the Intelligence and Security Committee, but I can say that we got a list of things that were defined by the United Nations as unacceptable and degrading behaviour and torture. Just above waterboarding came sleep deprivation. I know why now. After a while, you get disoriented, you get confused, you start repeating yourself and you are not sure what day of the week it is. I can see why it was used as a torture and still is, allegedly.

The last time I intervened, which was yesterday, I was thwarted by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, who everyone has been praising today, for reasons I cannot understand. He may have been nice today, but he was not so nice to me yesterday. Noble Lords may remember that, just as I got up to make a modest intervention, he got up to the Dispatch Box in a slightly atypically aggressive way to try to conclude the debate. I had to come in afterward, by which time I was flustered and not my usual self and did not make all the points that I wanted to make. That is why I am glad to be able to contribute to the debate on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, which I think is the best of the bunch, if I may say so.

The one thing that I did say yesterday was in relation to flexibility for the Boundary Commission, particularly for England. I would like to elaborate on that. I mentioned that Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales were used to being given specific numbers, particularly minimum numbers, but in relation to England, if we say a rigid number, that will make it very difficult

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for the Boundary Commission to fulfil its task, particularly where it is constrained to plus or minus 5 per cent-we will come to that later.

It will be very difficult for the commission to get it exactly right, to go around the country trying to fit in, in an artificial way, a specific number of constituencies of a specific size and, at the same time, corresponding with natural boundaries wherever possible, so that we do not end up with constituencies which have one part on one side of the Tyne, or whatever river, and another part on the other. We saw it in Glasgow. Noble friends from Scotland will recall how the Boundary Commission for Scotland was concerned about constituencies which straddled the Clyde. I hope that we will give consideration at some point, not to specifying the exact number, whether 650, 640 or whatever, but to giving some flexibility to the Boundary Commission.

Notwithstanding all that, I think, with respect to the others, that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, is the best of the bunch because maintaining the status quo will mean the least disruption for existing Members of Parliament. As I was saying earlier, these Members of Parliament have only recently been elected and I must say, having been in the other place for 26 years and out of it for only five, I think that some of those in the last intake are the best we have seen for generations. I am sure that noble Lords who have been in the other place will agree that it has been a super intake. Even the Conservative intake has been full of talented people; the Labour intake certainly has. I will leave the Liberal Democrats out of this.

Lord Kinnock: Everybody else does.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: As my noble friend says, everyone else does.

These Members of Parliament are just beginning to find their feet, to get to know their constituencies really well, they are beginning to settle in and they face a major disruption. They could face minor alterations, as we are all used to; we accept that from time to time. As my noble friend Lord Anderson said, after every three Parliaments you accepted that there would be a relatively minor review and that was all part of the job of being a Member of Parliament. However, to have just entered Parliament and to face a review which, because Parliament is being reduced to 600, will inevitably be extensive, is really quite destabilising.

I think it was my noble friend Lord Rooker who accidentally stumbled across Conservative MPs being briefed to prepare for this. He assumed that others would be doing the same and I am sure he is absolutely right to assume that Members of Parliament are preoccupied about this. It is not just that they will face competition from candidates from other parties-they first have to get selected for these new constituencies, and that is quite destabilising.

I want to speak about a boundary review that I went through. I was elected in 1979 for South Ayrshire, which extended to 700 square miles-a large, rural constituency. People think of Labour MPs as representing small urban constituencies. I represented this large, rural constituency which stretched from Muirkirk in the north to Ballantrae in the south. It would take me

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two hours to drive across the constituency and I did not drive all that slowly. I had a huge variety of areas to represent. Muirkirk is an old mining area and there is a little village outside Muirkirk, called Glenbuck, which was the home of Bill Shankly and Bob Shankly and which had a fantastic football team, the Glenbuck Cherrypickers, probably one of the best known football teams of its time.

Moving on a little, we find Auchinleck and Cumnock, both mining towns. I chose Cumnock as the territorial designation for my title. Cumnock is where James Keir Hardie lived for a while and is now buried-the cradle of the Labour movement. Mauchline was one of the places connected with Robert Burns-Poosie Nansie's is there-and, ironically, also of the Leader of the House, who, sadly, is not with us today. I was hoping to be able to pay tribute to him and his home in Mauchline, where I used to represent him and look after his interests extremely well. He does not often return the compliment and look after my interests, but I certainly looked after his. I represented all these-the villages of Coylton and Dalrymple, of Patna and Dalmellington in the Doon Valley, of Maybole and Crosshill, between which two I now live. Maybole was the ancient capital of Carrick, a fantastic town, and there is also the seaside town of Girvan. Any Glaswegians here, or people from the central belt of Scotland will know that they used to go, "doon the water" to the lovely seaside resort of Girvan.

All of this was 700 square miles and then the Boundary Commission added another 100 square miles-I had to represent 800 square miles after the Boundary Commission. Annbank and Mossblown came in, two mining areas, as well as Kincaidston and Belmont, parts of the outskirts of Ayr. Why am I telling you this?

Lord Kinnock: A maiden speech, obviously.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: A maiden speech, yes. I am taking noble Lords on a tour and I hope that some noble Lords will join me on the tour because, in all these towns, I had to have surgeries. In poor areas, the bus services were not very good. My constituents could not come to me; I had to go to them. I once talked to constituents in Cumnock about Girvan and they had never been to Girvan. They had never in their lives visited another part of my constituency. It was astonishing. They had been to Mallorca, but that is another story. They had not travelled, because the bus services were not particularly good, so I had to go there.

Before the reorganisation in my constituency I had 20 surgeries every month. I took them in the morning on each Friday and Saturday and I moved from area to area. After the reorganisation they went up to 24 and going and sitting in a surgery is only part of the work-you then go back and write up all your notes, decide how to follow it through, acknowledge to the constituent that you taken it up. That was the revised constituency before my noble friend Lady Liddell of Coatdyke-it was not all her responsibility, but she was the Minister-brought in the second reorganisation of constituencies that I was involved in.

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We managed to keep all the boundaries within Ayrshire. We had a big fight, by the way, to keep five constituencies in Ayrshire. My noble friend Lord Reid was very keen to move part of Ayrshire into Lanarkshire for the constituency boundaries.

Baroness Ford: Outrageous.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Outrageous, as my noble friend rightly says. We managed to keep four constituencies in Ayrshire out of the original five, but that meant that of five Labour MPs, one had to go, because we were only going to fight four constituencies, and that is why I ended up here. I was the longest serving, the oldest and I thought, the time is now right for me to give up, after 26 years representing that area. I gave up and, thankfully from my point of view, if not from anyone else's, I was asked to come here.

That, I hope, illustrates some of the workload of Member of Parliament. When I got down to Westminster as an MP, as I said earlier, we had no mobile phones, no e-mail and the burden grew over the years. I remember talking to Tom Oswald, MP for Central Edinburgh-he used to keep a book with all his letters. He wrote down who he got the letter from, when he received it, who he wrote back to and he wrote all his letters in longhand, put them in an envelope, put on a stamp that he paid for himself and sent off the letter. That was what a Member of Parliament did at the time.

Things have changed dramatically since then, but someone told me recently that one of the things we should take account of in the workload of a Member of Parliament is the increase in work due to government initiatives. It is certainly the case that Governments keep thinking of things which involve Members of Parliament in more work. They keep changing things. At the moment the NHS in England is being changed dramatically. I am sure that that will create huge additional burdens for English Members of Parliament. Governments, when they change constituencies, especially when they reduce the number and increase the size, ought to think of the workload that they are putting on to these Members of Parliament.

My noble friend Lord Kinnock, former leader of our party, is still with us. It is amazing that he is keeping awake and making such useful interventions all through the night. With his sagacity he put my noble friend Lord Anderson and me on the Front Bench. I mentioned earlier the importance of the work of Opposition Front-Benchers, doing this with very little support at the same time as being a constituency Member of Parliament and everything that that involves. A number of noble Lords have argued that the number of Ministers needs to be reduced if the size of Parliament is to be reduced, otherwise the power of the Executive becomes ever greater-and it has increased. We heard earlier not just about the number on the payroll but the number of Ministers who are not paid. Everyone seems to have a PPS. When we started, as my noble friend will remember, only Secretaries of State had PPSs; then Ministers of State got PPSs; now I understand that Under-Secretaries of State have PPSs.

6.15 am

Lord Kinnock: PPSs have PPSs.

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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Yes, we will have PPS squared.

On a more serious point, in one of the replies to an earlier debate, it was said that in future Ministers might come not just from the House of Commons, but more might come from the House of Lords, or elsewhere. The implication was that there could be Ministers who were in neither House of Parliament. Will the Minister clarify whether that is the Government's policy? That would mean the start of a move towards the separation of powers and the movement of the Executive away from the legislature. That would be a very retrograde step, but it may be something that the Government are considering. The Conservatives or, even more keenly, the Liberal Democrats may have that in mind.

That separation of powers also raises a question. A number of Members have raised the question of the comparison of the number of elected Members in Britain with the USA or France. We have dealt with the federal aspect of how in the United States of America, every state has its own Senate, members of the House of Representatives, Governor and so on. My noble friend Lord Rooker gave us the exact figure for the number of elected representatives per head in the United States compared with the United Kingdom. However, the separation of powers is also important. In the United Kingdom, Ministers have to be MPs as well and they have the workload of Members of Parliament.

Lord Knight of Weymouth: I should point out that I am the last person to have attended full Cabinet who was a Member of neither House. It was a disaster and during the period when the two parties opposite hatched their deal. I attended full Cabinet on the Monday while the Liberal Democrats and Conservatives were talking to each other about forming a coalition. It is not a course of action that I would recommend.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I am grateful to my noble friend. That was not the only disaster happening at the time, as we know.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: There are some historic precedents. I think of CFG Masterman who, in about 1915, as a Liberal at the time, was in the Cabinet but was not a Member of Parliament. I also believe that for a short time Patrick Gordon Walker was a member of the Cabinet but not in either House.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: They are not only unhappy precedents; they are unusual. I do not want them to become the rule as that would be a retrograde step. I have spoken for longer than I intended. Fortunately, the noble Lord, Lord Baker, is here. He will probably be watching me on his computer and will have switched me off after five minutes. I am grateful to my noble friends for being here and for not switching me off.

Lord Kinnock: My Lords, I strongly support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Kennedy proposing that the figure of 600 should be replaced by 650. I only wish that it had been possible for my noble friend, within the realms of order, to have added as a

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starting point the words, "for thinking through the changes proposed for the elections of Members of the House of Commons". That is the force of the argument behind the previous two amendments, and certainly the force of argument behind this one-650, the current number, as a starting point.

That is not a defence of the status quo-not a small "c" conservative attitude-but a defence that is based on a plea to the Government still to reconsider their proposal in order to give this House, the other House and wider realms of interest a proper opportunity to think how we should determine the number of Members of Parliament, in conjunction with dispassionate independent bodies such as the Boundary Commission, so that we absolutely guarantee the independence of the conclusion and the opportunity for public intercession that has characterised the boundary formation of our parliamentary constituencies since 1949, updated with some sagacious rules that were established in, I think, 1986.

The guiding principle that I seek to recommend to the Government, if they were to take advantage of this amendment, would be the fairly fundamental management recommendation that structure should be a function of purpose. That maxim should apply to business and to organisations and administrations of every kind, because if those who are responsible for making decisions-especially about organisation, reorganisation, reform or equipping for the future-have to accept the discipline of making clear from the outset the purpose that they intend for an institution, a stratum of management, a department or a new system of local government or of representation anywhere, they are obliged to say why they are arriving at the recommendation that they put to the corporate, democratic or voluntary organisation, or, dare I say it, to some segment of the big society. If that principle is applied to Parliament, it requires only a very small change from structure being the function of purpose to Members being a function of purpose.

There is some difficulty in establishing what purpose is and should be fulfilled by Members of Parliament now and for recognisable years into the future. In this, we have some guidance from within this House. Your Lordships' own Select Committee on the Constitution, comprising four Conservative, four Labour, two Liberal Democrat and two Cross-Bench Peers, reported towards the back end of last year on their deliberations on the Bill. This has been referred to before in the Committee, but I think it bears repetition for the sake of accuracy:

"The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee heard evidence from bodies such as the Hansard Society, Democratic Audit and Unlock Democracy"-

all organisations of unquestionable repute and detachment-

The only addition that I would have made, had I enjoyed the honour of sitting on that committee, would have been, "taking into account the perpetual nature of change affecting the work of Members of Parliament". That would simply have reflected, although

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I do not intend to dwell on this, my 25 years of experience as a Member of the other House, representing, at a time of radical and on occasions desperate industrial change, a constituency that had the characteristic of many former coalmining constituencies and far-flung communities inside that constituency-in short, combining the problems of the inner city and separated only by the hills in between.

The conclusion that was drawn by the Select Committee on the basis of these representations from the objective interest shown by the Hansard Society, Democratic Audit and Unlock Democracy was:

"We conclude that the Government have not calculated the proposed reduction in the size of the House of Commons on the basis of any considered assessment of the role and functions of MPs".

Could there be a stronger condemnation from an all-party committee, which recently looked in a focused and explicit way at the legislation before the House? It was not a Back-Bench Labour committee or a trade union branch but, I repeat, a committee with a balance of Conservative and Labour Members of this House, two Liberal Democrats and two Cross-Benchers who arrived at that conclusion.

Confronted with the arguments, the Minister has given us courteous responses, but the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, has been as opaque as he has been courteous. He has told us that the manifestos of the parties that now form the coalition had "a theme". It is difficult to accept a community, a commonality or even a similarity of theme when one of the coalition partners wanted a radical volcano of reform in our electoral systems leading to a reduction in the number of Members of the House of Commons, one contingent upon the other, with PR and more devolution, especially in England.

With local government reform, the coalition could offer a justification for having just 500 Members of the House of Commons. I would probably have argued with that figure, but at least there was a cogent package of arguments to present in support of the idea of reducing the number of MPs from 650 to 500. In contrast, we had an announcement followed by a manifesto commitment from the then leader of the Conservative Party, now the Prime Minister, in the midst of the scandal and the justifiable outrage about the abuse of public support for MPs, that one way to combat this excess would be to cut the number of Members of the House of Commons by 10 per cent, taking the number down to 585.

For the life of me, I can see only the merest scintilla of a theme being pursued, and it is that two parties wanted, to entirely different extents, in entirely different contexts and on entirely different bases of argument-one party wanted profound constitutional change, the other an arbitrary and populist declaration in the middle of outrage about scandal-to reduce the number of Members in the House of Commons. I do not call that a theme; I call it barely a coincidence of convenience. It is a long way from being a theme.

In a later contribution, the Minister said that no one has a perfect answer for the size of the Commons. Of course, that is absolutely right-as he said to the committee, there is no "magic science" to any of

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it-but that should be the overture to a whole opera of consideration and consultation: trying to find someone or something that is nearer an objective measurement of what Members of Parliament now do and will do into the electronic future. Instead, we have had the arbitrary conclusion to plump for the figure of 600, despite the absence of any objective rationale, in the words of the Select Committee of this House.

We have had a response from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, which was courteously put but again repetitive, that it is a question of judgment. Because there is no perfect answer, it is a question of judgment. That, too, is absolutely right. So let us enter an objective consideration that has been put several times in this Committee but has still not received a cogent response. The consideration that I would put, among many others that we could cite, is that the number of Members of Parliament since 1950 has risen by 4 per cent, and the number of electors by 25 per cent.

In any other sphere, if you were to get an increase in what I shall call, in neglect of my sisters, manpower of 4 per cent-and those people had to deal with 25 per cent potential greater demand-you might commend them on their extra productivity and on the reduction in marginal unit costs. That might be acceptable, except that the marginal unit costs of having Members of Parliament have gone up and up. One reason is because there is this disparity between the rise in the number of Members of Parliament and the much greater rise not only in the numbers to which they must be accountable and for which they must be responsible, but, as others have relayed at length, in the huge increase in workload.

I am tempted to replicate some of my noble friends' reports, but I shall not except to refer to one point made by my noble friend Lady Mallalieu. I knew her father, Curly Mallalieu-he was a dear comrade and friend of mine. He was a war hero and a man of great distinction, a brilliant sportsman and marvellous journalist and great company. He was also a very good Minister. I came into the House of Commons in 1970, together with my noble friend Lord Prescott, on the same day, and we served with Curly for four years. He was a fastidious constituency Member of Parliament who did surgeries once a month and answered all letters. He had a very high reputation.

However, that was at a time, as my noble friend Lord Prescott and others of our generation will testify, when total constituency engagement in the so-called welfare officer role was not only hardly undertaken by the generation before us but was regarded with contempt by the generation before us. I was upbraided by a dear friend for doing constituency work in the Library in a House of Commons in which having a desk was a rarity-a real mark of the Whip's privilege. It was a long time before I got a desk, and when I did so it was in a room that I shared, to my experience's huge advantage, with the now noble Lord, Lord Bannside, who now sits on these Benches. That was the state of affairs then.

What we encountered was unacceptable to our generation's commitment to the service of the community. We were told that we were there to represent the

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constituency in Parliament, not Parliament in the constituency. Could there be any more categorical difference after the passage of 41 years? Of course not, which is why I reinforce the point about the increase in numbers in the electorate with a massive alteration in expectations of Members of Parliament of servants of constituents-I believe rightly.

That is quite apart from the wider dimensions of the contact with Members of Parliament that is now facilitated by electronic communication as well as by the fluency of the electorate, the higher levels of education and the greater willingness to engage in the increased demands put on Members of Parliament. That is without looking at any external dimension or the increased workload on Parliament, about which everyone in my view rightly complains, which arises from massive programmes of legislation that have emanated from Governments successively over the last quarter of a century and which show no sign of pausing, slowing or being diluted under the present Government.

The workload has gone up, in quantity and probably in expectation if not in quality, and the place has changed. However, without taking account of those realities, which are not mathematical exactitudes but nevertheless tangible changes of huge dimension, how can a Government arrive at the conclusion that the number of Members of Parliament should be cut from 650 to 600? There is no objective basis and no rationale other than perhaps the very feckless rationale that I suggested earlier: that 600 has the advantage of not being 585, which was the number that the Conservative Party first thought of and which would have been unacceptable in the course of coalition deliberations and negotiation of agreement. It appears that that is the last negotiation that anyone in this Government will enter into.

I make this final point in recommending that we stay with 650. We should start from where we are and have a process of consultation and deliberation so that it is possible for the Government and this Parliament to arrive at a figure that reflects the nature of the work of a dutiful Member of Parliament in 2011, 2015 and beyond. What will happen if a change is introduced that does not secure consent by negotiation in this House of negotiation, which is capable of operation only through usual channels and where the absence of a guillotine is a product of the absence of a guaranteed majority? That is the arrangement that has been sustained and is sustainable because of the nature of this House. The Government are contriving an unseen and unannounced but massive reform of the House of Lords in the most retrograde way possible.

This has been a House of negotiation and arduously won agreement-a House in which Governments have not used and not been able to use the final, conclusive, clumsy and heavy result of overwhelming majority to get their way. If on this very significant constitutional Bill, which determines how the citizens of this country are represented and governed, this Government are not willing to take account of objective realities and requests for rationales that have been submitted by detached, independent and respected bodies, let alone by Members from this side of the House, they really

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are a Government who have become tunnel visioned and who will pay the price, although perhaps not in this Bill.

During the passage of this Bill, loyalties have been relied on and understandings taken for granted, not on these but on the Government's Benches. Tangible and in many cases terrible changes have been proposed on benefits, on the volcano in the English National Health Service and on the termination of the education maintenance allowance. On those and a legion of other changes, such as in housing benefit and council housing tenure, Members of this House on the Cross Benches and on the Government's Back Benches who are exercised about the difficulties that will be inflicted on people who are virtually powerless to resist these changes will want some recompense for suspending their judgment and going through the Lobby with the Government on this Bill.

As this Parliament moves into the next 12 and 24 months, the Government will really earn the penalty that they deserve for breaking the valued and sustainable conventions of this House and not listening to arguments but for sticking to an arbitrary figure that is unsupported by cogent argument and for reducing the size of the House of Commons because of their dependence on welding two disparate parts of constitutional change together in a way that has been entirely unnecessary. They can have their referendum, as my noble friends on the Front Bench have made abundantly clear, and on the date on which they want to hold it, but they cannot justify ramming through this House that undertaking in the coalition agreement at the same time as undertaking a course of action that will earn them for ever the reputation of a gerrymandering Government.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: It was good of the Leader of the House to pop in during our debate to see how things were moving, because, as we all know, it is not his shift. It was a very special favour to us that he came to see what was happening. I agree with my noble friend Lord Kinnock that the basis of what we are debating is the negotiation or lack of it on these proposals, and that the only negotiation that is relevant to this debate generally appears to have been that between the two parties of the coalition. As a result of that Faustian pact, or whatever else one calls it, the Government are unwilling to listen to argument, to unblock the usual channels or to make any concessions. They fear, Samson-like, that the pillars of the temple will crumble if they make the smallest concession.

I listened with great pleasure to my noble friend Lord Foulkes, as I always do. He gave us a rather joyful odyssey around his constituency. I confess that I was tempted to ask whether I might join him at some stage. I was listening to him describe all those wonderful places with strange-sounding names and wondering whether I could better him by taking him around my old city and around wonderful places such as Llansamlet, Craig-cefn-parc, Ynysforgan and Llangyfelach, and all these equally wonderful places with strange-sounding names but with a wonderful community. What impressed me during the time I had the pleasure to be there was that it was, indeed, a community. In the city of Swansea, we pride ourselves on being a series of villages held

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together by gossip-and the gossip is enormous. There is a real strength of feeling between the various parts of the village. It is something that I enjoyed. Of the trio who were on the Front Bench and appointed by my noble friend, I always thought of my noble friend Lord Foulkes as Mr Nice. There was the danger of having Amendments 61, 62 and 63 considered together, but they were quite properly severed.

I recall that my noble friend Lord Foulkes talked of his experience on the Intelligence and Security Committee and of what he learnt about sleep deprivation. When he said that, I was wondering whether I had last spoken yesterday or today and, indeed, whether I am in serious danger of repeating myself at this stage. It is what people do when they are subject to sleep deprivation. I will go on because I seem to recall that I spoke on Amendment 61 only to make the point that I did not think it appropriate to mention a particular number. I apologise to my noble friend Lady McDonagh but I did not think that 630 was an appropriate number. Equally, I did not speak in respect of the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Snape because I had already made that point on the earlier one.

I feel emboldened, however, to speak in respect of the current amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Kennedy for this good reason: that the onus is surely on those who want to make change to make the case for that change. This change, which is having an electoral quotient of 75,000 and of having 600 seats, might, or might not, be justified. However, what the Government have clearly not done is made any serious attempt at all during the course of this debate or earlier to justify those particular figures. What puzzles, surprises and, indeed, saddens me is that the Conservative Party has departed from its normal principles and, at a time when it talks about the big society and, airily, about localism, it seems very ready to sacrifice community on the alter of a mathematical formula.

Some colleagues have already mentioned the carve-up of Africa at the Congress of Berlin and those straight lines that separated community. For example, the Ewe community is partly in Togo and partly in Ghana. I do not think that my noble friend Lord Boateng is here but I would invite him to go with me around the borders of Ghana or Uganda looking at the way in which tribes were separated. I think that it would not be appropriate for me to go seriatim around the borders of various African countries.

Certainly, the normal pattern of Conservative thought-which is very distinguished in our history-is to have any change broadened down from precedent to precedent and to ask for an explanation for each change.

I recall Lord Hailsham's marvellous book. I already quoted him yesterday or today-I cannot remember which because of sleep deprivation. I recommend the book to every colleague. It was written in about 1948 and was called The Case for Conservatism. How well he put it in this book that, for Conservatives, politics was a second best activity. It prevents the nasties doing things and tries to keep the ship afloat-even if one did not have a particular destination. He had a wonderful sentence about the Conservatives:

"The simplest among them prefer fox-hunting-the wisest religion".

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Politics was a second-best activity, which is light years away from the ideological drive of the Conservatives today, followed tamely by the Liberal Democrats, who seem to be ready to sacrifice all their principles so long as they can follow up the legacy of Lloyd George and the unfinished business of the Liberals from before the First World War.

I am certainly ready to listen to all the arguments. I am far more ready to accept-as I have indicated-the amendment of my noble friend for the 650 because that is the status quo and because no serious attempt has been made to say why the status quo should be altered. Indeed, there is a serious argument, which I shall seek to deploy, for increasing the number of seats because of the increased workload of Members of Parliament. How do we define the job? This was the point made by my noble friend who has now left, the distinguished doctor. The job of a Member of Parliament has clearly altered very substantially over the years. Some colleagues have boasted about the fact that they entered the other place in 1964 or 1979. Wait for it: I entered the other place in 1966. I recall being asked at a selection conference what was my trade union. I said that it was FSBAA. Of course no one was prepared to admit ignorance as to what this particular trade union was. It was in fact the Foreign Service Branch A Association. Anyway, I was able to get over that hurdle as a result of my membership of a distinguished trade union in the foreign service.

At that time the world was very different indeed. One was able to have a career in addition to being a Member of Parliament. There were some very heavy and eminent lawyers in the House at that time. I was a member of the chambers of Elwyn-Jones, who became Lord Elwyn-Jones, and of Sam Silkin-Lord Silkin-whose PPS I became from 1974 to 1979. They were able to have serious legal practices at the same time as being Members of the House. There was a wonderful piece in Elwyn-Jones's autobiography, at the time when he had prosecuted at Nuremberg, going to his seat of West Ham and being told by the good constituents of West Ham, "Oh, don't bother to come for another year or so. You can just do that job in Nuremberg". He feared that he might be going on in the caravanserai to the prosecution of Japanese war criminals and his good constituents of West Ham would have been very happy for him to spend a year or two there. I recall that my noble friend Lady Mallalieu almost followed him in that seat, when we were both in the same chambers.

At that time, there were eminent members of the Bar and eminent businessmen, who were able to carry on with their position in the House of Commons part time. That would not be possible nowadays. About that time, I recall that Duncan Sandys was alleged to have said to someone who wrote to him from his constituency in Streatham, "I am Streatham's representative in Parliament and not Parliament's representative in Streatham". A story was going around about one of the Aitkens, who was a Member of Parliament, and who apparently replied to every constituent who wrote him a letter in the following terms: "Thank you very much for your letter. With people like you, England has nothing to fear".

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Alas, perhaps the world has changed. Members of Parliament do not have a pathway to Parliament through being eminent lawyers or having had a substantial career outside. Indeed, it is very difficult for parties to find an Attorney-General in the House of Commons because of the pressures of being in the House and the difficulty of finding a lawyer with sufficient standing in the legal community. I accept that, at the moment, the Conservative Party has a sufficiently heavy lawyer but it is becoming increasingly difficult because of the pressures of Parliament to find people to fill the post. Nowadays, the pathway to Parliament is normally through being a research officer for another MP. People come along without what Denis Healey would call a hinterland-someone who comes with a career from outside that they are able to use when in Parliament.

Nowadays one is expected to be a social worker. There is a deluge of e-mails. The expectations of the constituents have changed and woe betide any Member of Parliament who tries to adopt the Duncan Sandys, or Aitken, approach in replying to their constituents. Indeed, there is, in my judgment, a real danger of the House of Commons being somewhat parochial. This would be exacerbated if we have these regular boundary revisions. Members of Parliament are analogous to those 435 members of the House of Representatives, who are effectively in a state of perpetual electioneering. If there is to be this recasting, like with Lego bricks-where one is often putting things together in a fairly haphazard way and certainly not looking at the importance of community-different building blocks being put together every five years or so, it is surely only natural that every Member of Parliament would be looking over his shoulder at how he can cultivate that part that will come into his constituency.

It will make it very difficult indeed to find Members of Parliament who are prepared to travel, apart from coming to London. I have had the privilege of being on the executive of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and, at different times, the Inter-Parliamentary Union for over 30 years and, at times, boxing and coxing with my noble friend Lord Foulkes. It is more and more difficult to find Members of Parliament who are prepared to go abroad with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Why? MPs are in a state of perpetual electioneering, looking over their shoulders to ask, "Have I done well? Am I feeding the great beast? Am I giving the constituents that which they want?". I think that it will be a sadder Parliament if there are people who do not have the experience of the outside world and instead only those who are always going back to their constituents, trying to be glorified social workers. Some will ask: what is the job description? How do we explain that a Member of Parliament should be prepared to be a member of a Select Committee, should be able to learn about foreign climes and do all these things? It will not happen. If there are these regular changes, the pressures on Members of Parliament will mean that they will be in a state of perpetual electioneering.

7 am

Lord Thomas of Gresford: We have had the benefit of two distinguished and prominent Welshmen discussing, for 40 minutes, maintaining the status quo. I expect it

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from the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, because he led the opposition to devolution against his own party in 1979, when, alongside the noble and sleeping Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, I attempted to introduce devolution. I forget where the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, was on that referendum. I suspect that he was with the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock. Therefore, we have heard from two noble Lords who fought against devolution for Wales-and we in Wales will never forget it-on the basis that the Welsh Assembly would be dominated by Welsh speakers.

Lord Kinnock: Rubbish!

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I will never forget it. That was the basis of the noble Lord's opposition to devolution. It took his own Government at a later time to introduce devolution to Wales. Here we are talking about maintaining the status quo with 650 seats without any reference to the effect on the workload of Members of Parliament in Wales or Scotland. Therefore, instead of talking all this rubbish-he knows that it is rubbish-perhaps the noble Lord would spend another 10 or 15 minutes assisting the people of Wales by addressing that issue.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: I shall respond very readily but shall perhaps not take as long as the quarter of an hour that the noble Lord suggests I take. My opposition to Welsh devolution between 1974 and 1979 was on the same basis as my opposition to change now-that is, that the onus is on those who wish to bring about change to make the case for such change. It would probably detain this Committee unduly if I were to go on at length about the reasons why I and the so-called gang of six took the view that we did. However, as a former elapsed political scientist, I took the view that anyone who wished to have a quasi-federal system in a unitary state would need to think through very carefully questions such as what the natural stopping point would be. I think that the slippery slope-

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords-

Lord Anderson of Swansea: Perhaps I may finish my argument and then the noble Lord can come back. I made the point, which I think is very valid, that with a quasi-federal state there would be no logical stopping point. Therefore, at that time I personally became closer to the Liberal policy of moving more closely towards federalism. I felt that popular pressures would lead us inexorably along that road and possibly to independence for Wales. I was convinced that the people of Wales did not want that and my view was vindicated in the 1979 referendum, when the people of Wales, by a majority of four to one, rejected what the noble Lord was putting forward. However, I changed my mind.

Perhaps I may also say in passing that I was never guilty of using the Welsh language argument. Although I am monoglot, I have immense pride in the Welsh language, so long as language is not used as a divisive matter, as it is in Belgium. Therefore, I tried to deploy

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serious and reasonable arguments at that time, and on balance I was convinced-Mrs Thatcher was my tutor in that-about the centralisation which came about in the 1980s during the years of Thatcherism. I thought it only proper that my country, Wales, should be safeguarded so far as possible, and therefore, although I did not become a strong advocate, in my judgment the balance had changed. I supported the argument and voted yes in the 1997 referendum.

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way but the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, mentioned the Welsh language and my noble friend has just referred to it. I find it rather strange that there is this attack on my noble friend and on my noble friend Lord Kinnock. I well remember going to a Welsh Labour Party conference in Llandudno at the height of the devolution debate, with my noble friend Lord Kinnock and I having to sit on either of my noble friend Lady Kinnock, because she was our interpreter. Given that experience, I would find it rather strange if my noble friend Lord Kinnock had some antipathy towards Welsh speakers.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: Absolutely. I could write a book about our experiences at that time. I could speak not just for the quarter of an hour that the noble Lord has invited me to speak but at great length. Out of deference to the Committee, I shall not do that, but I would contend that the arguments that I deployed at that time, along with the so-called gang of six, were reasonable and rational. I changed my position in the 1980s for equally rational and reasonable reasons, and I certainly never used, and never have used, arguments of any antipathy towards the Welsh language, of which I am immensely proud, having chosen to go not to Oxbridge but to the University of Wales. I am proud to be an honorary fellow of the two universities in my city of Swansea. I am a Deputy Lieutenant of Swansea and a very proud Welshman. I would certainly defend that against any suggestion from the noble Lord opposite.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: The noble Lord is as reactionary today on this issue as he was in 1979 in that a moment ago he accepted that he was wrong on that. While the rest of us were fighting for devolution, for Wales and for the Welsh language, he was on the other side.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: I do not accept that I was wrong. I was right at the time, and I believe I was right because the position that I and my noble friend took was mightily endorsed by the people of Wales in the referendum by a majority of four to one. The facts speak for themselves. While the noble Lord and his cabal were speaking for just a small portion of the people of Wales, I and my noble friend Lord Kinnock represented real Welsh opinion at that time, just as we represented the movement of Welsh opinion in 1997. Therefore, I think that we were much better barometers and indicators of Welsh opinion than was the noble Lord at that time or, indeed, now. It is hardly irrational or unreasonable to suggest that those who wish to

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make a change should have the onus of adducing the evidence for that change, and evidence we have had none.

Lord Touhig: I am grateful to my noble friend but is he not encouraged that this is the ninth day of the debate and the noble Lord is the first Welsh Liberal Democrat to have said a single word about Wales? When we get to the amendments that seek to protect the number of Welsh seats and to ensure that Welsh speakers have representation as part of the United Kingdom, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, will be in the Lobby with us.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: I hate making a partisan point but when I see Welsh Liberal Democrats I am reminded of the saying, "Those who are about to die salute you". I shall be brief, although I think that I have about seven minutes left of the quarter of an hour that I have been allowed by the noble Lord. I ask: why the change? It is clearly not for financial reasons, because the saving would be very small. Indeed, the argument for an increase can be made, but certainly the arguments for the changes which the Government have put forward have not been made at all. I believe that I and my noble friends Lord Kinnock and Lord Foulkes have remained consistent, and I am waiting for the arguments to be put for the status quo. I am not wedded to any particular number but it is surely hardly unreasonable to ask those who want to make a change to adduce evidence for it and to make the case. Therefore, if my noble friend takes this matter to a vote, I shall be ready to support him in the Lobby.

Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top: I rise to speak to this amendment not having spoken before in any of the debates about the number of Members of Parliament that there should be and what their role ought to be once they are elected. I speak now because I have listened to three Ministers over the past however many hours, each struggling to identify why they have come up with what they have in the Bill. In my view, none of them has been able to address the issue adequately.

I was extremely bewildered when I first heard the Leader of the House. He was quite belligerent and aggressive, and actually quite offensive to some of my colleagues. I could not understand it. Then I heard the noble Lord, Lord McNally, sort of lose it a bit earlier, which I put down to lack of sleep and other things. I have also read in Hansard what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, said on previous occasions when I have not been in the Chamber. During all those debates, I worked out why they cannot tell us, and it is because they have come to this decision from very different perspectives. Because of that, they really cannot reveal to the Committee why and how they have done it.

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