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Lord Davies of Stamford: I am so glad that I gave my noble friend the opportunity to make that point, a very important point indeed. It is an extraordinary piece of neglect on the part of the Government that they have decided not to give that explicit responsibility to a single Minister. He will acknowledge-I think he did in his intervention-that quite separately from that, it is equally important that the City has some individual to go to who actually sits in the House of Commons and has constituency responsibilities, including the City. That cannot possibly be an effective role if it is divided up. We all know that a responsibility divided is a responsibility that gets neglected. It is impossible for an individual, if he or she were just to represent one corner of the City, to go to the Government or-a point very well made by my noble friend Lady Hayter-to go to the European Commission or anybody else and say, "I am speaking on behalf of the City". It is equally important that people in the City-it may be the different trade associations or individual firms-are able to go to someone in Parliament who understands the City, who, as a matter of professional integrity, has made sure that he or she is well briefed, even if they do not have a financial background, on the major issues in the City, whose door is open and can understand representations on City-related subjects and can take them up. That is a great strength in Parliament; that is a great strength for this absolutely key economic sector in our economy. That is an asset which would be destroyed if we do not retain the City as a specifically demarcated parliamentary responsibility. So I very much support the two amendments that have been moved tonight, and I hope the Government will take these points on board and accept those amendments, or at least give us some assurance that whatever comes

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out of this Bill will not enable any future Boundary Commission simply to allow the City to disappear as a parliamentary responsibility.

Lord Watson of Invergowrie: I rise briefly to supplement the remarks of my noble friends Lord Martin and Lord Foulkes in relation to Amendments 80 and 81 in respect of the city of Edinburgh and the area of Argyll and Bute. I speak on both from a personal viewpoint: I should declare an interest, albeit a rather removed one, in respect of Argyll and Bute. My great-grandmother came from there in the 1880s as an impoverished Gaelic speaker with no English. It is quite moving to read her Poor Law application, of which I have a copy, which she signed with just a single X-one of many thousands of islanders forced from the Highlands and Islands of Scotland by the appalling Highland clearances. An example of that is that the island of Islay, from which my great-grandmother came, once had a population of 15,000; that was in the 1830s. It is now 3,500: it dropped dramatically throughout the latter years of the 19th century, with many people going to Canada, the USA and Australia.

My wife and I regularly keep in touch with developments in our extended family through the various websites of Islay people. I think it would be wrong to say that Argyll and Bute is only about Islay-of course, that is a small part and the part I know best. But the Gaelic tradition of Islay and other islands, as well as the Western Isles, is an important consideration when it comes to parliamentary representation. Islay itself was one of the earliest islands settled. It was the home of the Lord of the Isles; it has the Gaelic Islay Columba Centre, part of the University of the Highlands and Islands, specialising in Gaelic. It is important that that is recognised in terms of its representation. Argyll and Bute itself, as a constituency of about 67,000 people, would fall short of the arbitrarily chosen figure of 75,000, give or take. As my noble friend Lord Martin said, with about 2,700 square miles, it is a massive area to be covered, and that has to be given consideration in terms not only of the coastline, which was referred to, but also of the very specific interests that have to be looked after. There are special islands allowances given by the Scottish Government to reflect that.

My noble friend Lady Liddell of Coatdyke mentioned the fact that, in terms of travelling to and from those islands, it is rarely a simple matter. Some of them, including Islay, you can fly to, but mainly you have to go there by ferry. It is very difficult to get there and back in a day; if a parliamentary representative went to one island but wanted to go to more than one, they would not be able to get back to their base on the same day. In many cases, if you go to an island on one day by ferry, you cannot get off that island for a couple of days until a ferry is going on somewhere else.

It is important to recognise that fact, and to lump Argyll and Bute together with some other part of the mainland would be unfortunate. I have to recognise-it would be unfair not to do so-that Helensburgh is part of the Argyll and Bute council area. That only came into effect some five years ago, but by and large, it is a collection of islands needing specific representation. With an electorate of 67,000, it is more than capable of qualifying for that. I hope that that will be borne in mind.

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Finally, I would like to say a few words about Edinburgh. I should also declare an interest as a constituent in Edinburgh North and Leith, admirably represented-as my noble friend Lord Foulkes said-by Mr Mark Lazarowicz. The decline in the number of Edinburgh constituencies from seven to six and now to five has been against trends. We know that the most recent reduction was a reflection of the establishment of the Scottish Parliament. That has some validity on its own, but it means that the city, at a time when its population is growing, has seen a reduction in its constituencies. As things stand, if the 75,000 quota were strictly adhered to, it could well lead to Edinburgh being, in effect, farmed out to bits of Lothian-East, West and Midlothian-to make up the required figure. That is why, as my noble friend Lord Foulkes said, the 10 per cent figure would be far more valuable and would help Edinburgh maintain those five constituencies.

Although I live in the area which is part of Leith, I will not tread, either literally or figuratively, on the territory of my noble friend Lord O'Neill, who knows these matters much better than I do. As an incomer, however, I say that the people of Leith have their own pride and that must be respected. Equally, the people of Edinburgh as a city have their own pride. The historic significance of Edinburgh, not only as the capital city of Scotland but also as a major tourist attraction for all sorts of reasons at all times of the year, has to be given some consideration and not treated by the blunt instrument approach, which could well see the number of constituencies reduced from five. I very much hope that will be taken into account by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, when he responds to this debate.

Lord Selsdon: My Lords, I intervene when anybody mentions the word Islay, since my family comes from Islay. With a name like McEacharn, one of the biggest whiskey producers in Islay for many years, with a black labrador called Islay and with a great-grandfather who was Lord Provost of Edinburgh, I have to support the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie. But he is making a few mistakes. We, in the McEacharn family, created the Scottish Line-the only shipping line allowed to carry the Scottish flag. As things became bad, we migrated and helped the migration of people all over the world. My other great-grandfather was the first Lord Mayor of Melbourne, and one of the first Members of the Parliament there.

Therefore, what the noble Lord says now strikes a chord with me. I support him fully, but he must accept that, over time, there have been movements and migrations and changes in the economies of the various countries. If he speaks of Leith, where my family came from as well-the shipowners and others-then I congratulate him on promoting the part of Scotland that I love.

Lord Watson of Invergowrie: I welcome those remarks, but at some future stage it might be possible to have a discussion on the item to which I think the noble Lord was referring when he said he disagreed with me-the Highland clearances and their effects. That would be a very interesting and worthwhile debate for some future

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time. He says he has relatives who come from Islay, as I do. I cannot claim to trace mine back to the Lord of the Isles, but perhaps he can.

Lord Tyler: I shall make a brief contribution and acknowledge that a number of very succinct and relevant points have been made in this debate, which contrast with the way in which the argument was taken forward earlier in the week. I do not in any way disrespect the cases that have been made on behalf of specific areas of the country, because I took great pride in the constituency which I had the pleasure of representing for a number of years.

I want to make two general points about this whole group of amendments. Incidentally, I understand that the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Teverson is now in a different group, so I will not address that. First, there have been a number of occasions when those who have direct experience of urban areas have suggested that somehow rural areas do not deserve the same amount of attention and that their Members of Parliament do not have as much work. Since I was the representative of a very big, scattered rural constituency during the period of both foot-and-mouth and BSE-and I know that there other Members who had this experience-I have to say that a Member of Parliament can be on 24-hour call in a rural constituency. I do not wish to pursue that. Indeed, I know of the long distances and the difficult topography in the particular case of Argyll and Bute, which I had the pleasure of visiting when I was responsible for rural policy for my party in the other House. It is important in this House that we do not create an artificial distinction between urban and rural constituencies.

I am trying to be brief.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: We welcome all contributors to this debate. Having sat through many hours of debate, I cannot remember anyone, certainly on my side of the Committee, saying that Members representing urban constituencies have a greater workload than those representing rural constituencies. We have said that they are different, but the workload is not necessarily greater. Since I represented a large rural constituency for 26 years, as I said at six o'clock in the morning the other day, I know the workload of rural constituencies. The noble Lord is falling into the trap of forgetting that many rural constituencies throughout the whole of Britain have been represented for years, and represented well, by Labour Members of Parliament.

Lord Tyler: I do not deny that for a moment. I think the noble Lord has been so busy making speeches that he has perhaps not had an opportunity of reading Hansard because that point has been made.

My second point again applies to this group of amendments.

Lord Campbell-Savours: Does the noble Lord accept that some of us would contest the contribution of my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock? The noble Lord will remember from stories told by secretaries in the House of Commons during the period when I was there that there were often conversations between

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Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative secretaries in which they discussed workload. It very often surfaced during the conversations that Labour Members in inner-city seats had a far bigger workload than other Members of Parliament. My noble friend obviously contests this, but he had a secretary who I am sure was involved in those conversations as, indeed, was the noble Lord's. It was well known.

Lord Tyler: I apologise to the noble Lord because I do not understand what he is saying. All I am saying is that I think we should all accept in all parts of the House that both those representing rural constituencies and those representing urban constituencies can have an enormous workload. The way in which they respond to that workload is not something that I want to pursue.

I want to make another general point about this whole group. I am not a lawyer, but I am uneasy about too many special exemptions in any legislation. I think it is much better if you can design legislation so that you incorporate sufficient flexibility so that you do not have to have, in the words of this Bill, too many preserved constituencies. I understand the arguments-

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: Surely that is exactly the point about Boundary Commission hearings. You do not have to write it in the Bill because that will be allowed to come on later. I put down the amendment for the City of London because I would have expected that consultation with the Lord Mayor of London and others would allow that. That seems a much better way. Will the noble Lord accept that we are making special cases only because we know that Boundary Commission public inquiries will go so we will not be able to make them there?

Lord Tyler: The case for the City of London is not what I am referring to. I am referring to those constituencies in particular parts of the country where it is being argued that they should be preserved constituencies in their present entirety. I shall make a general point because I think it is right to do so within the context of a group of amendments. I accept that it is not easy, particularly when we have such a wide range of different circumstances, but I think it is better legislation so to craft the Bill that there is general flexibility that accommodates more special circumstances within the general range of the Bill rather than a longer and longer list of preserved constituencies. I think there is general agreement across the House on that. If we can work towards that, that is preferable and leads to better legislation. Therefore, I have listened with great interest to the special cases that have been advanced within this group, but I hope that we will find a better way of dealing with them.

1.15 am

Lord Kinnock: First, I endorse the first of the arguments the noble Lord has made so eruditely and accept it as a good definition of what should be the form and nature of Bills, particularly constitutional Bills, and most particularly Bills that affect the way in which the people of this country are represented. That

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being the case, does he not agree that the system we have employed for many decades to establish constituency boundaries and ultimately, therefore, as a product, the size of the House of Commons, should be retained? While general principles that permit flexibility are set down by the legislature, the execution of those principles should be in the hands of an independent body, the Boundary Commission, subject to sensible local appeal. On that basis, we would certainly have the breadth of principle that he calls for, and I agree with, and we would also be sensitive to the realities of parliamentary representation, community integrity and the relevance of local government boundaries that are in danger of being lost if this Bill is accepted without the amendments being put by my noble friends and which are now the subject, I hope, of productive joint consideration.

Lord Tyler: I am not sure whether that was an intervention or an extension into a new speech. The noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, has agreed with the principle I have advanced, but he has taken it into a different development. I accept that, in his inimitable way, he has made a speech to develop the point I was making. I accept too that he has a perfect right to do so, but although it was very interesting, it was not exactly what I wanted to say.

Lord Grocott: I am not intervening on the noble Lord and I do not expect him to respond, but we are in the Committee stage and he has raised an issue that lies absolutely at the heart of one of the fundamental weaknesses of the Bill. I could not believe it when I saw that a paragraph in this Bill is headed "Exempt constituencies", although the word used may be "Excepted". Without any attempt to relate them to any other part of the Bill, two constituencies were going to be exempted just like that. As soon as I saw that, I must say that I and a number of noble friends thought, "This Bill has a very big piece of hybridity in it". It has all the basic characteristics of a hybrid Bill because one group is being treated separately for no discernible reason. The Bill gives no explanation of why it is being made into a category.

That is a weakness in terms of how Bills ought to be drafted. Here let me say quite clearly, especially knowing that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, is to wind up the debate, that I do not object in the least to the Western Isles or to Orkney and Shetland having their own constituencies because of their characteristics. I fully support that and think it is absolutely right, but as soon as you trespass into that kind of territory when drafting legislation, it is obvious that there is not a single constituency in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland that could not make a case for their unique characteristics to be treated as a constituency in its own right and being one of the excepted cases. It is bad drafting and bad politics because it would be so easy to put down an amendment for every single constituency.

I am sure that, at his convenience, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, could draft a clause that would allow for Orkney and Shetland quite properly to be a constituency in its own right. He could write it in general terms, which is how you should write legislation,

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and it would probably include a number of other exempted constituencies, but at least there would be some rationale for what is being done. There is none in this paragraph as it stands. It is yet a further example, but a particularly glaring one, of why this is a bad Bill that has been badly drafted.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, that exchange at the end goes to the heart of the issue in relation to these amendments. I should indicate which amendments I understand we are considering, starting with Amendment 78B, the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, that argues for a classification of constituencies that fall in the special authorities category. I think the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is on that, as is that of the noble Lord, Lord Newby. We are considering Amendment 80, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, which says that there shall be five constituencies in the city of Edinburgh. We are considering Amendment 81, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, which argues that a constituency called Argyll and Bute should be preserved. We are not, obviously, considering Amendment 82, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, which is in the group, because it is about the Isle of Wight. We are not considering Amendment 85 because it is about the Isle of Wight. We are considering Amendment 85A, which is my noble friend Lord Grocott's amendment dealing with Telford. We are considering my noble friend Lady Hayter's Amendment 85C, which argues that there should be a constituency that includes the whole of the City of London. We have not had argued my noble friend Lord Liddle's amendment in relation to Cumbria. I will only deal with the amendments that I have just referred to, going through the list.

The Government have consistently argued that the core principle underpinning their proposed new rule for drawing parliamentary constituencies is equality. The Bill is designed, within a very narrow tolerance, to create equal-sized seats. As we have said repeatedly, we on this side of the House agree with the principle of creating more equal-sized seats but, as we have consistently pointed out, the Bill sets out this objective in a clumsy and unfair fashion. As we have heard, and will continue to hear, it aims to equalise seats on the basis of an unequal electoral register and it aims to do so in a way that will override all other factors such as geography, community and history, which ought to be taken into account in some way when designing patterns of representation. Yet, a curiosity about the Bill is that while the principle of numerical equalisation is deemed to be the trump card in almost all cases, there are some places and some circumstances where the iron law of uniform statistics has been disregarded.

For example, a new rule on the maximum territorial extent of a constituency has been invented, accompanied by a "get out of jail" free clause for at least one Scottish Highland seat from the requirement to adhere to the electoral quota. Alongside that, in new paragraph 6 in Clause 11 is a further exemption from the electoral quota, which we have heard a lot about, for two Scottish island seats-Orkney and Shetland and the Western Isles are to be preserved, as it were, in aspic.

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Despite having substantially fewer voters than the proposed new quota of 75,000-in the case of Orkney and Shetland I think the electorate is around 37,000 and in the Western Isles it is just 21,000-these constituencies are deemed to warrant a special status in the Bill. I completely agree with my noble friend Lord Grocott that it is obviously sensible-but I also strongly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, that where you are dealing with any public Bill, but most especially when you are dealing with a constitutional Bill, there must be some principle involved. What is the principle involved such that these two should be preserved constituencies? Is it that they are island constituencies? That cannot be the Government's principle, because the Government explicitly rejected exemptions for both Anglesey and the Isle of Wight. Is it unique geographical circumstances? It cannot be, because there are more islands that are populated in Argyll and Bute than there are in either the Western Isles or Orkney and Shetland. Is it because of the particular historical status of these two constituencies? It cannot be, because the City of London has been mentioned in electoral legislation for more than 100 years and the Western Isles was first mentioned in electoral legislation only 70 years ago.

Without a principle, it is very difficult to understand why special favours have been granted. I do not know whether noble Lords remember-many noble Lords were not in the House when it happened-but at the very beginning of this process I admitted to the House that this is a hybrid Bill because two constituencies were being taken out, not on the basis of principle, but on the basis that they were being treated differently from the rest of the country. I do not want to go over the argument of whether it is hybrid. My own view remains that it is hybrid and that it is absolutely clear that hybridity can come not just from property interests, but from interests such as a desire to live in a particular place, as occurred in the previous case concerning Gatwick Airport. Put all that to one side. The consequence of the Government resisting the hybridity Motion and the consequence of there being no principle underlying these two exceptions mean that we are now in the position that we are in.

Distinguished Members of this House, such as the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, make persuasive arguments for special treatment for other places. The argument that he makes, that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, makes for the capital city of Scotland or that the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, makes are all incredibly persuasive. With respect to my noble friend Lord Grocott, I am not sure that the argument for Telford was quite as strong as the others, but those ones were very persuasive and that is because there is no principle that one can legitimately identify. There have been a lot of attempts to identify a principle. I have distilled the two that have been given so far by Mr Mark Harper in the other place and by Mr Nicholas Clegg and I understand them to be island communities, geography and history. They just do not stack up as an explanation.

I understand the foundation of the Bill to be a pamphlet written by Mr Andrew Tyrie, Conservative Member of Parliament, who is described as the brains

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behind the boundary review policy. In his pamphlet, Pruning the Politicians, Mr Tyrie wrote that special considerations,

Not for the first time, I disagree strongly with Mr Tyrie. Although we should create more equal-sized seats, we should do so in a way that, in special cases, continues to allow factors other than pure statistics to influence the shape of constituencies. The best solution would be for the Government to bring forward the proposal that some independent body identify a very small number of exceptions to preserve the principle of equality, rather than the situation we have at the moment, where two political parties have come together and agreed these two exceptions.

I do not know the basis on which these two exceptions were agreed. Were they agreed in the coalition agreement talks? Were they agreed separately? What was the basis on which the agreement was reached? I think that one is a Scottish National Party seat and one a Liberal Democrat seat. I think that the exception in relation to size particularly helps two Liberal Democrat seats in the north of Scotland, so it would appear that two of the exceptions help the Liberal Democrats.

1.30 am

There is a problem with that. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, in all his dealings in relation to all of this, is only motivated by a proper constitutional settlement. However, if you have two political parties in a five-day haggle reaching agreement on exceptions and it is impossible to identify any intellectual basis upon which exceptions are to be agreed to, naturally, in the House of Commons and the House of Lords, people will press the Minister for an explanation and it is on the basis of the quality of that explanation that people outside will judge whether or not those exceptions are justified. If the Government are serious about this boundary review-and by serious, I mean not just that they want to get it through, but they want it to last as a constitutional settlement-they should be thinking about legitimacy. The idea that exceptions can be simply plucked out of the air with no principle and no justification seriously undermines the durability of this settlement.

I will be listening very closely to what the Minister says was the basis upon which these two exceptions were chosen. Also, if it is geography and history that are the two criteria, what about the geography of Argyll and Bute? Let us remember that there are parts of that constituency which could not be reached except by trawler. My noble friend Lady Liddell of Coatdyke said yesterday that there were some parts of the constituency that the late Ray Michie could only visit one day in a year. If history is a criterion, I thought that the case made by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, was a pretty strong case. It is a pretty bad idea to spread the City of London over three constituencies; it should be kept in one. That sounds perfectly sensible to me; it is the sort of argument that I would have thought would appeal to a Boundary Commission and would not offend against the numerical quota that has been put into the Bill.

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This sequence of amendments is obviously important in relation to the individual places to which they refer, but they demonstrate absolutely the utter unthought-out nature of the Bill and demonstrate that this is not a valid piece of constitutional change; it is a political horse-trade which is difficult to defend on constitutional terms. That does not mean that this side of the House does not want more equal constituencies-we do-but we want it done in a durable way and we think that this sequence of amendments is important and requires answer.

I shall deal, finally, with the amendment of my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, which says that there should be five constituencies in Edinburgh. I declare an interest-I was born and brought up in Edinburgh. I can think of no place that is more deserving of five constituencies, whatever the population of Edinburgh, than Edinburgh, so I particularly support that amendment.

Lord Judd: Does my noble friend agree that once again, as we consider these amendments, we see that the Bill is strategically flawed? The British public, the electorate of the whole United Kingdom, have not seen the case for the change, let alone the details proposed for the change. In a democracy that was really sound, there would be an opportunity for an expression of opinion by the electorate of the whole United Kingdom on what was being proposed. If we are taking upon ourselves the responsibility for making the change, it is more important than ever that all the rationale for what is being done is absolutely explicable and spelled out. What I fear is that, at a time when public confidence in the political system is at a pretty low ebb, this will again be seen as arrogance on the part of a closed political community in Westminster.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I agree with every word of that. The detailed point is that, if you were minded to have exceptions, surely the starting point would have been a public consultation in which people who thought that their area was entitled to special favours could have put their arguments, which could then at least have been seen by the public. However, because this Bill has had no public consultation and no pre-legislative scrutiny, that opportunity has not existed.

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I come now to address the series of amendments that have been spoken to or moved. I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, about which amendments we are dealing with, except to say that the initial amendment, which was moved by my noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, was Amendment 66C. Linked with that was the amendment that relates to the exceptions or the preserved constituencies, to which the noble and learned Lord devoted most of his remarks. However, we are on common ground as to which amendments we are discussing.

On numerous occasions during the Committee stage of this Bill, I have spoken about the principles behind the Government's approach and our belief in equal votes-one vote, one value. As my noble friend Lord

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Tyler indicated, that is the principle and it is important that the exceptions to it are limited. I shall therefore deal with the exceptions first. They are the constituencies of Orkney and Shetland and what used to be referred to as the Western Isles-I am not a Gaelic speaker and I do not want to disgrace the Gaelic language by even attempting the Gaelic name.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, echoed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, again raised the question of hybridity. Noble Lords who were present at the outset of these debates, before Second Reading, will recall that that matter was thoroughly debated in this House. The Clerks gave the advice that the Bill was not hybrid and the House had its say on the matter, rejecting the argument, however eloquently and persuasively put by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, that the Bill was hybrid.

The noble and learned Lord asked why the Bill makes the exceptions of the two preserved constituencies. For anyone who has looked at a map, the reason is probably blindingly obvious. The constituencies are at the most extreme parts of our United Kingdom. If anyone has any doubt, let me say that Orkney and Shetland are at the very top and go far north; they are not in a box somewhere in the Moray Firth-my former constituents used to be very irritated when it looked as though the distance between Shetland and Aberdeen was very small. Indeed, the fact that they are so far away is a factor. We are talking not just about geography but about extreme geography, where the dispersed island groups cannot readily be combined with the mainland. It takes 12 hours by ferry from Lerwick in Shetland to Aberdeen on the Scottish mainland. By any stretch of the imagination, that situation is extreme.

We could contrast that with other islands that are already combined with mainland constituencies. Argyll and Bute is one example; it comprises a substantial mainland area together with islands. The constituency of St Ives, which is represented by my honourable friend Mr Andrew George, includes the Scilly Isles. The constituency of, I think, Cunninghame North, which includes Arran and, I suspect, the Cumbraes, is represented by-I am sorry, I cannot remember.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: It is represented by Miss Katy Clark.

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I have no reason to doubt that. These are examples of island communities which are linked to and can readily be combined with the mainland.

We took extreme geographical circumstances into account. If the preserved constituencies were linked and combined with part of the mainland, their surface area would almost inevitably be larger than that of the largest current constituency. In the course of our debates in Committee, concerns have been expressed by many noble Lords about the distances which people have to travel. I recall in one debate-I cannot remember which of the many-someone talking about the possibility of having to drive for two-and-a-half hours to get to a place. In Orkney and Shetland, it can require two-and-a-half hours even to get to one part of Orkney, let

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alone travel from Orkney to Shetland-you can travel from Orkney to Shetland by plane, but you then have to go very much further again.

Lord Reid of Cardowan: The Minister is giving us not a principle but a geographical description, and saying that those places are geographically different. But so is Argyll; so are many of the other examples given. So I have to ask the Minister again: what is the principle by which these places are being distinguished from the other examples being given? The distances are similar to those in Argyll; the size of Argyll is some 2,000 square miles.

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I rather suspect that the noble Lord was not listening as attentively as he would normally do, because I said that those constituencies had been excepted because they were dispersed island groups which could not readily be combined with the mainland. By definition, Argyll and Bute is already a set of islands which has been readily combined with the mainland and which over many decades has been represented by very distinguished, hard working Members of Parliament-I think back to Michael Noble and my late noble friend Lady Michie of Gallanach. It is now represented my colleague and honourable friend Mr Alan Reid. The two preserved constituencies are not readily combined with the mainland. If they were to be so combined, they would be part of constituencies whose surface area would be larger than the largest constituency. Let us remember, when we talk about surface area, we are not talking about areas of sea as well, which would not be counted into surface area. The most recent judgment of the Boundary Commission was that the maximum size of a constituency should be what was manageable for constituents and MPs. That is why we brought forward the other rule, rule 4, which sets a physical, geographical size limit, just by sheer reference to manageability. It perhaps cannot stand as a legal principle, but trying to make sure that you do not go beyond a certain extreme of manageability is surely in the interests both of the Member, of whichever party, and the electors, who have to make contact with their Member of Parliament.

I think that it was being implied by the noble and learned Lord that there is some political motivation behind the proposal. As I have said, it is obvious from the extreme geographical position of the two constituencies why they have been exempted. Although Orkney and Shetland has been represented by a Liberal or a Liberal Democrat for the past 61 years, I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will acknowledge that, until 1997, the Western Isles had a Labour Member of Parliament-indeed, until 1970, when the late Donald Stewart won the Western Isles, it had been represented by the Labour Party from the 1930s. I am sure that his colleagues in the Labour Party in the Western Isles have no intention of giving up their aspirations for that seat. Our approach is in no way partisan; it is a recognition of geography.

Lord Davies of Stamford: Is the Minister telling us that, in the coalition's discussions which gave birth to this Bill, the Liberal Democrats-leader or otherwise-did not insist on these two exemptions in Scotland?

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1.45 am

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I was not in the front line, but I have no recollection of these specific seats ever being mentioned in the coalition talks during the famous five days in May. If they were mentioned, they were not mentioned in my hearing in any of those negotiations. I have no reason to believe that they were mentioned. They are self-evidently at the extreme end of geographical considerations.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Then to whom can we give the credit for making these suggestions? Who originally came up with these suggestions for preserved constituencies and when?

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Obviously discussions took place in the preparation of this Bill. I honestly cannot think of who took the final decision, no more than anyone else here. Who was involved in which part of which Bill-

Lord Rennard: Would my noble friend agree that whoever devised the 1986 legislation devised the exception for Orkney and Shetland, that it has been around for many decades and was not new in this Bill? Treating the Western Isles in the same way is purely logical.

Lord Wallace of Tankerness:It was not the 1986 legislation. Let me put it on the record that Orkney and Shetland is under present legislation outwith the purview of the Boundary Commission for Scotland. Orkney and Shetland is preserved as a Westminster constituency by virtue of the Scotland Act 1998, which was passed by the previous Labour Government. It was outstandingly passed as it was a very good piece of work. It was whipped through by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. It gives the constituency of Orkney and Shetland preserved status. It was not done by this party but by a Labour Government. I congratulate them on it. It seemed logical that the Western Isles should be treated in a similar way in this Bill.

Lord McAvoy: The Minister has forced me to break my self-denying ordinance about intervening on Ministers. However, he will recall that in a previous discussion about Orkney and Shetland both getting MSP seats he said that one day he would give us details of the deal he struck with the late Donald Dewar to get that. Who did he do this deal with to get preserved constituency status?

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I did not do a deal with anyone with regard to this. I have just paid tribute to the party opposite which recognised the importance of Orkney and Shetland by giving them separate seats in the Scottish Parliament and preserving the Orkney and Shetland Westminster seat. I hope that noble Lords will think that it is not unreasonable that, given the similar circumstances of the Western Isles, they should be included.

There were some important contributions in this debate about the City of London. The amendment was spoken to by my noble friends Lord Brooke and

19 Jan 2011 : Column 508

Lord Jenkin, the noble Lords, Lord Myners and Lord Davies of Stamford, and, very persuasively, by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town. I think the important role that the City of London has in the history of this nation is well recognised across the Committee, as is the important financial contribution that the City makes.

As I have indicated, the primary concern of the Bill is to create more equal-sized constituencies, and that is best achieved by keeping exceptions to the minimum. As a result, the Government do not believe that the City of London should appear as an exception. While it is not for me to say what the Boundary Commission for England will do, I hope it might reassure noble Lords to know that the 25 wards in the City of London have fewer than 7,000 electors, which is smaller than some individual wards elsewhere in the country. I therefore suspect that it is unlikely that the City will be split between two constituencies. This is a very obvious case where the rules, particularly rule 5 about where special local ties would be broken by changes in constituencies, would be highly relevant in addressing the Boundary Commission.

The question was raised with regard to the historic nature of the City. The position, as I understand it, is that while Magna Carta protects certain privileges of the City of London, paragraph 628 of volume 12(1) of Halsbury's Laws of England lists customs of the City that have been certified by the Recorder and recognised by the courts, but does not include anything on Parliament or constituencies. However, there is considerable history here and I would want to do better justice to this issue. I hope that I shall be able to write to the noble Baroness who raised this matter, addressing the point that she made concerning the history of the City as a parliamentary constituency, and I shall seek to do so before Report. As for the name of the constituency, again, that should be a matter for the Boundary Commission. However, I have no doubt that those who feel strongly about any proposal from the commission that affects the City of London will be able to make representations to it. I certainly recognise the importance of the name of the City of London, and we believe that this strikes the best balance between respecting the history of the nation's communities, including the City of London, and providing equal weight to the votes of those who live in all our communities.

I turn to the question of Edinburgh-

Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords-

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: No, I think that we have heard quite a bit on this matter. I turn now to the other capital city, Edinburgh, which was referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Foulkes and Lord Watson of Invergowrie, and indeed, with due deference to his native home, by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, declared his interest as a supporter of Heart of Midlothian Football Club-perhaps he just took it that it is a well known fact. If the additional five constituencies all contained in the Edinburgh council area were to be excepted, which would be the consequence of the amendment, from the 5 per cent

19 Jan 2011 : Column 509

above or below the rule, they would be projected to diverge on average from the electoral quota by just over 12,300 electors-that is, just over 16 per cent. Again, I do not think that that ties in with the concept of fairness and equal votes, as we believe that constituencies should be broadly of equal size.

I do not believe that there are the geographical challenges that we find in the two constituencies that have been preserved. I know Edinburgh reasonably well and I do not think that there are geographical challenges there that would make it particularly difficult for MPs to see their constituents or for constituents to see their MPs. Nor, indeed, is this a case in which there is an issue of sparsity of population. The noble Lord, Lord O'Neill, mentioned that, for the Boundary Commission, the Edinburgh East constituency had sometimes included and sometimes excluded Musselburgh, which I believe lies administratively in the county of East Lothian. Therefore, Edinburgh has expanded its boundaries in the past for parliamentary purposes.

Ultimately, it will be for the independent Boundary Commission to take account of all the factors. I say this only because I think that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, said that in every circumstance he would want Edinburgh to have five seats. If Edinburgh, in order to thrive and flourish, as we would all wish to see, merited six seats, I am not sure why in statute we should restrict the number to five. There is a problem in going down that road. However, I have no doubt that the Boundary Commission will be able to secure equality of votes between constituencies within the 5 per cent margin and that Edinburgh's standing as Scotland's capital city will in no way be impaired.

I turn to the case made by the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, and supported by others, including the noble Lord, Lord Watson, on Argyll and Bute. As I have already indicated, Argyll and Bute already combines islands and the mainland, which I think distinguishes it from the two that are reserved and which, as I have already indicated, we do not believe could incorporate part of the mainland very readily. Argyll and Bute is already very close to the range that will be required under the Bill. Although I recognise noble Lords' concern about large areas, I have already referred to the fact that there are rules in the Bill that would ensure that the size did not become unmanageable. It is not just at 13,000 but at between 12,000 and 13,000 square kilometres that there is a sliding scale.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, mentioned Helensburgh, which is currently part of the Argyll and Bute constituency. I believe that in parliamentary terms it is a recent addition, although in local government terms it has been part of the Argyll and Bute council area for some time. Helensburgh, of course, is historically part of the ancient county of Dunbartonshire, so its boundaries have already changed and it is now familiar as part of Argyll and Bute. I was a sufficiently political anorak in my youth that I can remember when Argyll and Bute did not have Bute and that Bute was part of a north Ayrshire and Bute constituency, so Bute has migrated backwards and forwards. In areas such as these, there has been no fixed boundary. Therefore, given the safeguards to prevent its size becoming too

19 Jan 2011 : Column 510

great, and the fact that the islands are already incorporated in the mainland, it would not qualify for a preserved constituency in the same way as the Western Isles and Orkney and Shetland do.

As to the island area of Telford being surrounded by the rest of Shropshire-

Lord Grocott: The Labour island.

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: As the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, says, the Labour island. He referred to this because it gave him an opportunity to make some important points, but he will readily recognise the arguments for preservation. I do not think that even he would start to claim that it has a special extreme geographical situation. I understand what he is saying, but a Boundary Commission will be able to devise and recommend seats within the parameters of size defined in the Bill that give proper and fair representation and a fair vote and fair value to the people of Shropshire, including the people of Telford.

In any of these matters, we should not lose sight of the fact that while, yes, primacy is given in the legislation to securing fair votes and fair values as best we can, the Boundary Commission still may-I acknowledge that the numbers within the margins take primacy-take into account, to such extent as it thinks fit, special geographical considerations, including the particular size, shape and accessibility of a constituency; local government boundaries as they existed at recent ordinary council election days; and any local ties that would be broken by changes in the constituencies. These are important factors, which will help to address a number of the concerns that have been raised not only in this debate but in other parts of the United Kingdom.

In these circumstances, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment. We are certainly conscious of the concerns expressed and we recognise the strength of feeling, but we are confident that the variation of up to 10 per cent between the biggest and smallest constituencies will lead to a reasonable balance between equal value votes and have proper regard to locally meaningful boundaries.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords and Baronesses who have spoken in this vigorous debate, especially my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding. I admire the spirit of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, even if I cannot support the precise wording of her amendment because it seeks, beyond peradventure, to avoid the hybridity issue. I appreciated the quotation given by my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding-as, no doubt, did the Opposition-of the resonant 1944 voice of the Home Secretary, Mr Herbert Morrison, who is of course the grandfather of the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Myners, for his kind words.

I have heard what my noble and learned friend the Minister said, and I thank him for what he said about the Magna Carta, about which he offered to write to both me and the noble Baroness. I understand the Government's overall position, as he has indicated it, but before I contemplate whether to beg leave to

19 Jan 2011 : Column 511

withdraw the amendment, I hope that the Minister will agree to a meeting with us to discuss this issue before Report, based on the strength of the case presented on all sides of the debate. I remind him quietly that at the time of the 1948 Act, the Governor of the Bank of England, the chairman of Lloyd's insurance and, I think, the chairman of the Stock Exchange accompanied the Lord Mayor of London to the Bar of the other place to present the strength of the City's case. If my noble and learned friend the Minister nods his head to my request for a meeting in such a way that it can been seen by the Hansard writer, I shall-

2 am

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Perhaps I should put this beyond peradventure in case the Hansard writer does not see my head. I am sure that I would be willing to meet and I am sure that the representations made by my noble friend will be every bit as powerful as those that were made by the various dignitaries to whom he referred.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: In response to the generosity of my noble and learned friend in standing up to agree to a meeting, I ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 66C withdrawn.


Moved by Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resume. We had, as everyone in the Chamber knows, 21 hours of debate on this issue on Monday and Tuesday, stopping at 1 pm. We then had another few hours on Tuesday evening and, through Wednesday night into Thursday morning in this sitting, we have now had between seven and eight hours on the Bill. Between now and the date by which the Government have said that the Bill has to be out of Parliament, there are nine legislating days in the Lords. The Bill has been listed for Monday and Wednesday of next week for the Committee stage, making a total of 13 days in Committee.

On the basis that the Report stage takes between a third and half of the time taken in Committee, there are to be between four and six Report days. On the basis that Third Reading takes between one and three days and, because this is an important constitutional Bill, there are the usual gaps between the two stages yet to come-Committee and Report, and Report and Third Reading-there is absolutely no prospect that this Bill will come out of the House on 16 February.

We have offered for the Bill to be split to allow the referendum to go ahead on 5 May, which the Government have said is their desire. We have no desire to stop the referendum. That offer has been rejected by all, up to and including the Prime Minister of this country, and therefore some other solution is required. It is a solution

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that needs to be negotiated between the parties. The sooner serious negotiations start, the better. I make it clear on behalf of the Labour Party and the Opposition that we are keen to engage in serious negotiations.

This process of going deep into the night should be brought to an end. As I look across the Chamber, I must say, with the greatest respect, that half the people on this side and half the people on the other side are half asleep; probably half the people who are supposed to be negotiating are getting more and more exhausted. There should be an adjournment and cool heads should start to kick in. The way in which the House of Lords always pulls back from the brink is by negotiation. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, urged earlier in the day, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, urged during the 21-hour session and again today, and as is the view of many on all sides of the House, we should stop what has been described as legislating until we drop and show some leadership by starting to negotiate. For all those reasons, I urge the House to resume.

Lord Soley: I support that strongly. I have watched with growing concern the way in which this has been handled by the Government. It is mind-blowing that the Government, and the two political parties that make up the Government, are prepared to do so much damage to the reputation of the House of Lords.

Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Soley: I ask Members to think about this. They know, I know and everyone in this House knows that this is an important constitutional Bill. They also know, as was pointed out a number of times in the debate, including in the debate on the amendment that I moved a couple of days ago, that it is extremely unusual-in fact, I know of no other case of this in a modern parliamentary democracy-for two parties forming a Government to force a decision on the number of seats in the House of Commons where there is neither all-party agreement nor an independent assessment of the needs of Parliament. The Government are not just breaking the rules of normal constitutional procedures; they are breaking the rules of what is normally done in modern democracies. That is why, as I pointed out a few days ago, we look very carefully when we conduct investigations on elections overseas at how those Parliaments are constructed. If they are constructed by one or more political parties trying to dominate the others, they invariably run into trouble and damage the reputation of the whole country.

I say again to noble Lords that there have been plenty of opportunities for serious negotiation. A number of people on this side of the House have made it clear that there is a willingness to accept the referendum; some people are for the alternative vote and some people are against it. The noble Lord, Lord Wills, and I, as well as a number of others, have made the point that we are willing to negotiate quite happily on the number of seats, because we take the view that the House of Commons is too large, just as the House of Lords is too large. But what you cannot do, should not do and should not try to do is to force a position on

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the constitution with far too little thought and no agreement between the political parties and organisations that are part of it.

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I have found that the last few amendments that we have discussed in this House have been dealt with remarkably constructively. However, while on the whole I am a great admirer of the noble Lord, Lord Soley, I think that his intervention at this point is starting to pull things apart again. I ask noble Lords to think again before they intervene at this point.

Lord Soley: I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I am quite happy to accept what he is advising me to do. I simply say, as I said a few moments ago, that the House is doing itself no favours and the Government are doing themselves no favours by not negotiating.

Lord Rooker: It seems, on the basis of the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that the style of what has been happening contradicts what I heard the Prime Minister say some hours ago. I thought that I heard him say that the beauty of the coalition was that it was not ideological and that it could do things differently. That was said not in the context of this Bill, by the way; it was in the context of another part of government policy. However, the impression that I get-the noble Lord's intervention has justified this-is that the coalition has locked in the two parties. I am not party to any discussions, but it seems that even in the face of the evidence neither of them can move, because they are locked in to what they decided.

Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Rooker: Noble Lords can deny it all they like. I am just giving my view. I am entitled to my view. I am just saying that that is the way it appears. We do not have the flexibility because of the way in which the coalition was put together. I am not complaining about that. In five days, the parties had very little choice and the numbers did not make any other coalition viable. I have said that before; I do not argue about it. But the reality now is that the position is more locked than it would have been if we had had single-party government. That is the impression that I get. We have to be able to free the situation up. What my noble and learned friend said is the reality.

As for the last few amendments, I have sat through the lot. I have made only two brief interventions-they have not been speeches-but I am wondering why. If we had discussed that last group of amendments in Monday's style, we would have decoupled them all. I kept saying to myself, "Why are we not decoupling these? Why are we doing it all sweet and light?". But it made sense to do that. That is what has happened in the last few hours.

My noble and learned friend has made the point that it is time to take a break; it is time to take a breather. After that, let us continue in the way that we have been in the last few hours, rather than going back to the way we did it on Monday. The choice is there for

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everybody. In the past 48 hours, the amendments have not been loaded up on the Marshalled List. No one has gone away and shovelled a barrow-load of amendments on. That could easily have happened, but it did not. There is a great deal of material that could be amended, particularly, I think, in Schedules 8 to 10 on the voting system, which we have not dealt with yet; we have dealt only with Schedule 1. That has not been done. I am saying that there ought to be a better way of doing this than the one that we are being driven towards. My noble and learned friend has made a very good suggestion and it would be wise for everybody to accept it.

2.13 am

Division on Lord Falconer of Thoroton's Motion.

Contents 63; Not-Contents 103.

Motion disagreed.

Division No. 4


Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L. [Teller]
Bilston, L.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Browne of Ladyton, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Stamford, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Golding, B.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayter of Kentish Town, B.
Healy of Primrose Hill, B.
Henig, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
Kinnock, L.
Knight of Weymouth, L.
Liddell of Coatdyke, B.
Lipsey, L.
McAvoy, L.
McDonagh, B.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Myners, L.
Nye, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Palmer, L.
Prescott, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Reid of Cardowan, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Slim, V.
Smith of Basildon, B.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Thornton, B.
Touhig, L.
Triesman, L.
Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller]
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Winston, L.


Addington, L.
Allan of Hallam, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller]
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Bates, L.
Benjamin, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Browning, B.
Burnett, L.
Caithness, E.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Empey, L.
Falkner of Margravine, B.

19 Jan 2011 : Column 515

Flight, L.
Freud, L.
Garden of Frognal, B.
Gardiner of Kimble, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
German, L.
Goodlad, L.
Greaves, L.
Green of Hurstpierpoint, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hill of Oareford, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Home, E.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jolly, B.
Jopling, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kramer, B.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marks of Henley-on-Thames, L.
Marland, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Popat, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rennard, L.
Ribeiro, L.
Sassoon, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheikh, L.
Shipley, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Stedman-Scott, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Tope, L.
True, L.
Tyler, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warsi, B.
Wei, L.
Wheatcroft, B.
Wilcox, B.
Younger of Leckie, V.
2.22 am

Amendments 67 to 67B not moved.

Amendment 67C

Moved by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

67C: Clause 11, page 9, leave out lines 29 and 30 and insert-

"( ) Each constituency shall be wholly in one of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or England together with the home and overseas dependent territories."

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: It is a great privilege to speak to such a full House at such a time and to move this amendment-which would leave out lines 29 and 30 on page 9. It is in order to make the purpose of the amendment clear, and important to look at the lines that are deleted. Those lines say:

"Each constituency shall be wholly in one of the four parts of the United Kingdom";

and they then describe the four parts:

"England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland".

Under the present provisions, each constituency would have to be in one of the four countries that currently comprise the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

19 Jan 2011 : Column 516

However, under the Crown there are more dependent territories than the four countries of the United Kingdom. I am talking not about independent countries but about Crown dependencies-home and overseas dependencies, and overseas and home territories. I am suggesting that each constituency should be wholly in one of Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland, so that they should each comprise a whole number of constituencies, while the fourth area that would comprise a whole number of constituencies would be,

This is a radical change from the current position, as noble Lords will immediately recognise, with three particular motivations or inspirations behind it.

The first inspiration is the former Member for Thurrock in the other place, Andrew Mackinlay. Noble Lords who knew Andrew, who served in the other place or who heard him speak will have heard him argue again and again that the home and overseas dependent territories should be considered and should be involved in the Parliament of the United Kingdom. He argued that very strongly and very forcefully. He raised it with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association on a number of occasions. He went a little further and said that the whole of Ireland should be reincorporated into the United Kingdom, which was a step too far in many ways. However, he is the first inspiration.

The second inspiration behind it is the example of Gibraltar. Gibraltar is already included with part of the United Kingdom in a constituency for the European Parliament, so that the south-west of England and Gibraltar together form a constituency. Gibraltarians vote along with people of Devon and Cornwall and other parts of the south-west in one constituency to choose a Member for the European Parliament.

The third inspiration behind it is from France, a country that I am getting to know quite well. As the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, will know-I see him regularly either on his way over there or on his way back-and as others will know, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Howell, who is a Minister for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, France has two types of overseas territories-TOMs and DOMs: territoires d'outre-mer en France and départements d'outre-mer. The territoires d'outre-mer are like our dependent territories, but départements d'outre-mer are integral parts of Metropolitan France. They vote in the parliamentary elections, they have representatives in the assembly in Paris and they have representatives in the senate in Paris as well.

We should look at the example of départements d'outre-mer and consider the possibility of incorporating, first of all, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, giving them the opportunity to vote in our elections and incorporating them into some of the constituencies here. Let them come to Westminster, argue their case and put their arguments before Parliament. Against that proposal, the Minister and others might argue that these territories have had what they would describe as independence for many years. However, their constitutional situation is very similar now to the situation in Scotland, in particular, but also in Northern Ireland and, to a lesser extent, in Wales, in that they

19 Jan 2011 : Column 517

have control over their own domestic affairs. However, in foreign affairs, defence and international treaties, the United Kingdom still has responsibility for the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

The other territories that I am suggesting could be incorporated are the Cayman Islands, the Falkland Islands, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos Islands, Anguilla, Montserrat and the others-I may have missed out one or two. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, will know only too well the problems that have currently arisen, for example, in the Turks and Caicos Islands, where we now have direct control through the Governor of the Turks and Caicos Islands because of difficulties that have occurred there. There is a strong argument that if they were involved in decisions and discussions here in Westminster, their home arrangements would be less likely to get into difficulties. They could get help from our legal system and financial structures and a number of other areas by incorporating them like, as I say, the DOMs are incorporated in the French state.

As I say, this is a radical proposal. I am not expecting the Minister to agree to it straight away; it needs discussion over a period of time.

Lord Dubs: I have been trying to follow my noble friend's argument and I think that I understand what he is saying, but perhaps he could explain something to me. My geography may be fading at this time of night, but how could a constituency in Northern Ireland go outside the boundaries of Northern Ireland? My geography is not up to answering that question.

2.30 am

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I do not think that the question arises. I am not suggesting that a constituency in Northern Ireland should go outwith Northern Ireland. I am suggesting that the Isle of Man could be incorporated in a constituency either on its own or together with part of the mainland of England, and it would then have a representative in the United Kingdom Parliament. There is an argument for the Isle of Man to be a constituency on its own, as we have just discussed for the Isle of Wight, or for the Channel Islands to be a constituency on its own, or Orkney and Shetland. I am suggesting that they should be considered by the English Boundary Commission so that Scottish constituencies are dealt with by the Scottish Boundary Commission, and the Welsh and Northern Irish by their Boundary Commissions. The English Boundary Commission should look at the overseas and home dependent territories.

Lord Dubs: I understand what my noble friend is saying but I am reading his amendment and trying to understand what the argument is. The amendment says:

"Each constituency shall be wholly in one of"-

and includes Northern Ireland. I do not see how a constituency could be other than within Northern Ireland.

19 Jan 2011 : Column 518

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I think that my noble friend is missing out on the commas. Each constituency has to be in Scotland wholly, Wales wholly, Northern Ireland wholly and either in England wholly or in England together with one or more of the home and overseas dependent territories. Those territories would be allied only to English constituencies, not to Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish constituencies. I checked all the punctuation with the office to try to make it clear that that is how the amendment would be interpreted. My noble friend Lady Ramsay, who has long experience in the Foreign Office one way or another, has said from a sedentary position, although she might like to say it from a standing position-

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: It is very clear what the amendment is trying to do. It is trying to incorporate the idea, which the French have employed for a long time, that their overseas and dependent territories can be in some cases considered part of mainland France. My noble friend is trying to extend that principle to our similar dependent territories, but it should be extended only into England and not into the others. It is quite clear.

Lord Dubs: I am grateful to both my noble friends. I think that I understand it now. I am sorry that I did not do so before, but it is the time of the night.

Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan: Before my noble friend leaves this point, is it not the case that it would not be impossible-unless this amendment was passed-for Argyll and Bute to be linked to a constituency in Northern Ireland? After all, until fairly recently there was a short ferry service between Argyll and the Mull of Kintyre and the north of Ireland. Therefore, this is not beyond the bounds of possibility. The draconian powers with which the Boundary Commission will be endowed would enable it to play ducks and drakes with all parts of these islands. While it might be mutually beneficial for Scotland and Northern Ireland and a number of areas to get closer, it is not necessary for them to enjoy the same parliamentary constituencies. Without this amendment, we might well have that.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I am grateful to my noble friend. I know a lot about the Ballycastle to Campbeltown ferry, which my former honourable friend Brian Wilson tried to reinstate. When the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, was Secretary of State and I was Minister of State at the Scotland Office, we also tried to reinstate it, with some difficulty.

Lord Knight of Weymouth: The noble Lord will be aware that, within the European constituencies, Gibraltar is within the south-west of England. So there is, in a strange way, some sort of precedent for the radical, reforming idea that he wants the beginnings of a debate on. I remain sceptical, however. Has he spoken to the Gibraltarians, for example, about whether they want representation in this Parliament?

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I have spoken extensively with people from the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and most of the dependent territories about a number of issues, including this one, over a long period. I must

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say that I am not the most popular person in some of our dependent territories. I would not claim that I was, but I wanted this matter to be raised because it is important. There are precedents. However, I do not want to go on too long. I have argued the case-

Lord Howarth of Newport: I know that my noble friend always takes a very responsible view of the implications of any legislative proposals for the public purse, and he will be aware that, very virtuously, it is part of the Government's intention to reduce the cost of politics. Has he conferred with the IPSA about the implications of his proposals, and can he give the House an estimate of what might happen to its budget?

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Anything that causes problems for the IPSA seems like a good idea to me; my former honourable and right honourable friends down the Corridor are plagued by it at the moment. However, there are a lot of possibilities for revenue to come in, particularly from islands such as the Cayman Islands if we were to do this, which would far outweigh the IPSA costs.

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: I do not often disagree with my noble friend, but I am always sceptical when he advises me about football, and I am similarly sceptical about these matters. The point that my noble friend Lord Dubs makes about the possibility of part of Northern Ireland being included in a Scottish constituency would be quite apposite for Rathlin Island, which is physically closer to Scotland than it is to Northern Ireland. Is my noble friend aware that the Italian Senate has provision for expatriates? Indeed, there is an Italian Senator who actually comes from Melbourne and has to commute to Rome to sit in the Italian Senate. We might consider that when we look at the form of the House of Lords.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: That is a very interesting argument. Of course, in the European Union it is perfectly open for us to stand for constituencies in any country. In fact, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, stood for an Italian constituency. He did not do very well. I think the fact that he could not speak a word of Italian did not help.

A noble Lord: How do you know?

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Well, I have parlayed with him about it.

I wanted to raise this matter, but it has taken a lot longer to move the amendment because of the interventions. I am deeply worried about the health of some Liberal Members, who get so agitated when I and others go on for too long. I do not want to be responsible for the death or even the grave illness of any of the Liberal Members, who clearly-

Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am not quite sure that I fully understand the proposition. Should representatives from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man sit in the UK Parliament and vote on UK tax matters, for

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example? Does my noble friend seriously think that they would be inclined to do that? We might want some reciprocity.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend is absolutely right. There would be reciprocity. They would come under part of our tax regime. That is part of the purpose of it.

Lord Knight of Weymouth: No representation without taxation.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Yes, as my noble friend Lord Knight says, no representation without taxation-to turn something on its head.

Noble Lords have rightly pinpointed some of the practical difficulties. There is an argument in principle for it. Some people, particularly those in the Overseas Territories, find the present arrangements somewhat patronising. We send out middle-rank diplomats to be Governors and lord it over the elected representatives of the islands. Those Foreign Office officials are often insensitive to the concerns of the elected representatives. A number of them have said that they would perhaps prefer independence, or incorporation into the United Kingdom. The proposal has been suggested by some people in the many discussions that I have had, although others are not as enthusiastic about it.

Lord Howarth of Newport: My noble friend has shown generous sensitivity to the concerns of the residents of those islands and recognises that they may indeed resent the fact that in some ways we lord it over them, but if his proposal were to find favour with both Houses of this Parliament, does he not foresee a possibility that they might actually lord it over us? If we were to have a hung Parliament, I think the quite numerous representatives of those territories could in fact be in the position of being able to determine who should form the Government of this country. They would then probably negotiate a coalition agreement far more rigorously and effectively than the Liberal Democrats have.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: They would certainly do it more effectively. However, that situation exists at the moment. The SNP, for example, is committed to the total separation of Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. It has said that if it held the balance of power in a hung Parliament, it would push hard on the interests of Scotland in particular. We are already facing that kind of situation, but of course it would be exacerbated.

I have been trying to draw my remarks to a close for some time.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way. He has put a very interesting proposal to the House, but it is regrettable that we are discussing it at almost a quarter to three in the morning. If we had a Green Paper and White Paper that were properly subject to scrutiny, we would be able to explore it in a much more sensible way.

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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I agree completely with my noble friend. He has just reminded me that not all that long ago, within my lifetime anyway, we appointed the Governor-General of Mauritius. He was a distinguished Governor-General who had previously been General Secretary of the Labour Party. If my noble friend had moved on in the Labour Party, he might have had that opportunity rather than coming here. The Governor did a very good job, but I am trying desperately to remember his name. My noble friend has reminded me that it was Len Williams. He proved to be an excellent Governor.

Lord Snape: Is it not a fact that we have present in the Chamber tonight two former high commissioners to Australia? I refer to my noble friend Lady Liddell in front of me and the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, opposite. They represent another fine example of the Prime Minister of the day doing the right thing and appointing the right people.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend Lady Liddell never thought it, but some people thought she had been appointed Governor-General of Australia. I know that she would have made a very good Governor-General, and indeed she and the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, were excellent high commissioners in their time.

I had better bring my remarks to a close. I am deeply worried about the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. He is someone for whom we have the greatest of concern and care for his future, his health and everything else. Earlier we saw him nearly have a paroxysm or a heart attack because I and others went on for too long, so I am anxious that he and the other Liberal Democrats are allowed-

Lord Desai: Let me remind my noble friend that the Labour Party should not get romantic about the Empire, of all things. Good as Governors-General are, it is when they are gone that a country feels better.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: That is a wonderful note for me to finish on. I agree with my noble friend Lord Desai.

2.45 am

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: It is pretty clear what my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock is trying to do. It is pretty far reaching and I do not think, frankly, that it is sensible.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Thank you.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I say that with the greatest respect. As I understand it, Amendment 67C proposes that every constituency shall be in either Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or England. The words,

mean either that a constituency also has to be completely within the home or overseas dependent territories, or that when you add the people to a constituency in

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Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or England from the home or overseas dependent territories, that constituency is wholly in one of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or England. It leaves open the question of how you identify the people from the dependent territories, whether by connection with a constituency in the UK or by reference to their dependent territory.

The current position is that if you are from a home or overseas dependent territory and you are resident in the UK, and you have either leave to remain or do not require leave to remain, you can vote in a UK general election. What my noble friend is in effect suggesting is that we should by this Bill, without consultation and almost certainly against the wishes of the majority of most of the members of the home and overseas dependent territories, absorb them into the United Kingdom. The current position is that while many of them have allegiance to the Crown, they are not governed by our Executive or our Parliament. From my experience-I was the Minister responsible for the home dependent territories for a considerable period-they would be outraged by the suggestion of such a change being made in this way. I know that my noble friend wished only to raise a debate on this matter but from their point of view-they will read Hansard-it is absolutely critical that we make it clear what the effect of the amendment is, and I make it completely clear that we on this side of the House oppose it.

Lord Rooker: May I give my noble and learned friend an example from one of my former ministerial roles that comes to mind? I have never been to the Isle of Man, which is not a member of the EU. I did not realise that, during the 10-year ban on UK beef, beef grown in the Isle of Man was exported through England to Europe because it was not subject to the beef ban. It was not a member of the EU so it was not subject to the ban. It would not have wanted to be subject to it either. There must be other complications in other areas of policy that would have the same disastrous consequences. I agree with my noble and learned friend that the amendment would lead to incorporation into the UK, and consequently membership of the EU. The Isle of Man might not want that, given all its ramifications. I give that practical example as that 10-year ban would have destroyed its beef trade, as it destroyed that of UK farmers.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My noble friend Lord Rooker gives just one example. From my experience of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, the idea that they could suddenly find themselves in the European Union, with ramifications not just for the sale of beef but, for example, in relation to imposts in the form of tax and VAT, would be for them a major issue and, I anticipate, something to which they would object.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, would my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer care to ponder whether the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who is on record in Lancashire as being totally opposed to people interfering with the boundary between Lancashire and Yorkshire, has been consulted on whether the Isle of Man could suddenly be added to the county of Lancashire?

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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I have not had the opportunity of discussing this matter with the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, but I imagine he would oppose it.

My position is clear on Amendment 67C. As to Amendment 77A, the proposed new paragraph 5(2) on page 10 of the Bill states that under the new arrangements the Boundary Commission for England,

It then states, in brackets, that when having regard to that you should ignore Gibraltar. Obviously the reason you should ignore Gibraltar is because it has no part to play in elections to our national Parliament.

The second amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, suggests that we should have regard to Gibraltar and European parliamentary boundaries when considering what the national constituency boundaries should be. For example, the Boundary Commission might consider that a European Parliament boundary here would be a good place for a constituency boundary. I do not object to regard being paid to the European boundaries but, because I oppose the first part, I think they should be kept separate-this applies to Gibraltar as much as to everywhere else-and we should not have regard to Gibraltar in paragraph 5(2). Therefore, on behalf of the Opposition, I also oppose Amendment 77A, which I am sure was only a probing amendment.

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, it is an interesting probing at this time of the morning. I am sure that it will come as no surprise to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that the Government do not support his amendment because there are both principled and practical objections to it. The principled objection is that these territories are separate from the United Kingdom-their people are represented by legislatures in their own territory-and I certainly join the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, in saying that I suspect there would be considerable opposition for such an incorporation without any consultation.

The practical difficulty is that residents of the overseas territories may not be on the United Kingdom parliamentary register on the basis of an address in these territories. The noble and learned Lord indicated the basis on which people can be registered to vote in the United Kingdom. It is formed of British, Republic of Ireland and qualifying Commonwealth citizens aged over 18 who are not subject to any legal incapacity. Anyone resident in the territories who is entitled to register in a parliamentary register would do so from a UK address, not from an address in the territory itself. As Gibraltar is not part of the United Kingdom, I also do not understand why the Boundary Commission should have any regard to it. I therefore share the opposition to that amendment.

The noble Lord has raised an interesting issue, and he may wish to return to it on a more appropriate occasion, but I am afraid that I can give him no comfort if he seeks to pursue the amendment. I ask him to withdraw it.

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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lords, Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for their replies. I was expecting the reply from the noble and learned Lord Falconer of Thoroton because I remember discussing this with him briefly and so I knew he was sceptical about it. In spite of the fact that both of us are avid supporters of Edinburgh's greatest football team, the Heart of Midlothian, I could not find any way of bribing, cajoling or encouraging him to go along with the amendments.

However, given all the strange and daft things that Mr Nicholas Clegg, as my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer described him, has adopted over the past few months, I thought there might have been some encouragement from Members on the other side to pick this up and run with it; they might have seen it as a good idea.

It is certainly a probing amendment. Although there have been one or two light-hearted interventions, there are some serious issues to it. The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are looked after by us and my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer was not absolutely correct when he said that this Parliament did not have responsibility for them because we do. When we sign treaties such as those on human rights, we do so on behalf of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. This Parliament has some responsibilities. Ultimately, although it is not a power we would wish to exercise, the United Kingdom Parliament technically has the back-stop legislative responsibility for those territories. My noble friend Lord McKenzie will know that, although there is a lot of independence in terms of their financial regimes, we have made it absolutely clear-and the territories have accepted this-they have to get their acts tidied up in relation to offshore finance. They have not done it as much as I would like, but we have certainly had some influence on them.

There are also anomalies whereby, for example, all over the south of Spain there are people from the United Kingdom who have been there for 10 years or more and are still able to vote in UK elections. They live in Malaga or other parts of the south of Spain. I remember when Mrs Thatcher was Prime Minister, her husband, Denis Thatcher, went out there to recruit more and more people to the Tory party and encourage them to register to vote in the United Kingdom. It seems strange that these people now have no connection with the United Kingdom, but can vote in elections here. Yet the good people of Gibraltar are unable to do so, although a lot of the decisions made by the UK Parliament affect them. Some of my noble friends will remember the effect on Gibraltar's port when we pulled out our Navy.

There are some serious arguments on this and there are many more examples I could give if I had the time. However, I keep worrying about the health and strength of noble Lords opposite. I listened very carefully to the Minister and he said that I might wish to return to this matter on an appropriate occasion. I was wondering whether that might be Report stage. I shall consult the Minister. In fact, I shall have a meeting with him. I know that he is keen on having meetings. He has already offered a number of meetings. Perhaps before

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I bring back the amendment, I should visit these islands and talk at greater length to the people of Cayman, Anguilla and Montserrat. I visited Montserrat just after the volcano erupted. Some noble Lords will remember that when my then Secretary of State, Clare Short-who did not have the sagacity, wisdom and intelligence of my other Secretary of State who is with us today, my noble friend Lady Liddell of Coatdyke-first met the Chief Minister of Montserrat, who was asking for help with the reconstruction after the eruption, she said in a fit of pique, "They'll be asking for golden elephants next".

Lord McKenzie of Luton: Do my noble friend's ambitions extend to Belize? It seems to me that he could get advice closer to home without so much travelling?

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I shall come to that in a moment. I was sent out, not by the Secretary of State but by the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to Montserrat to calm things down. The airport had of course closed and I arrived by helicopter-I am not an inconsiderable figure, as noble Lords will observe-clad in a very large, bright orange outfit. I disembarked from the helicopter and saw all the cameras.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I think the noble Lord has the opportunity of moving his amendment and seeking to test the opinion of the House or of withdrawing his amendment. I think it would help the House if he gave an indication of what he would like to do so we can carry on with business.

3 am

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I am grateful to my noble friend. I call him that because I got a bit ratty with him the other day, and he is a good friend. He and I meet together-I cannot remember if he bought me a glass of wine or if I bought him one. I was just coming to the punchline and then I was going to sit down. David Brandt was standing there and I could see as I jumped out that he was furious about what was happening. I remembered what they are like in the Caribbean and how they are friendly, so I went straight up and gave him a big bear hug. He had to do the same

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and all the cameras were taking pictures. So it was that I solved the problems of the Caribbean by getting this warm welcome.

Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, I really wonder at this hour of the night whether the taxpayers of this country, who are paying for these facilities to be kept open, would wish to be entertained by the anecdotes of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. Does the House not believe that we need to get to the business of the House instead of being entertained in this manner because the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has been carousing in the bars of this Palace?

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: We do welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, to the House, although she is a recent arrival.

Baroness Falkner of Margravine: May I suggest to the noble Lord that I have been here rather longer than him?

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Anything else you would like to say while you are at it?

Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan: That is why she is so bad tempered.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: There is a very simple way that the noble Baroness could have stopped me telling these anecdotes. She could have a word with the noble Lord, Lord Shutt of Greetland. I think I have finished.

A noble Lord: About time.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: It is about time and I was not going to go on any longer, but I keep getting interrupted. I have decided to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 67C withdrawn.

House resumed.

House adjourned at 3.03 am.

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